How do you reconcile being a Gay Christian.

biguy2738

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I will demonstrate a more complex form of exegesis, more importantly, so that you can see what a chiasmus structure (otherwise known as a "sandwich" structure) looks like because no close reading of a Biblical text (and it's understanding) is possible without an awareness of the ancient literary techniques that were used. In the instance of a chiasmus structure, one needs to think concentric as opposed to linear; the "sandwich filling" is the most important part of the passage because it tends to be a message or a challenge. So, I'll present Luke 9: 28-37 in this manner:

A Now about eight days after these sayings Jesus took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray.

B And while he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him.

C They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions were weighed down with sleep; but since they had stayed awake, they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him.

X Just as they were leaving him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings one you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah” – not knowing what he said.

While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were terrified as they entered the cloud. Then from the cloud came a voice that said, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!”

When the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and in those days told no one any of the things they had seen.

On the next day, when they had come down from the mountain, a great crowd met him.

“Eight days”: I mentioned a bit earlier that the use of “7 days” presents perfection and/or order in light of this, when one finds the use of “eight days”, it tells us that it’s the beginning of a new order and/or perfection; that things will be even better/greater than before.

“Moses and Elijah”: The Israelites referred to the Torah as “the Law and the Prophets”. Moses represents the Law and Elijah, the prophets. This implies that Jesus was in the midst of prayer and reading the Torah when the “transfiguration” took place. A deeper exegesis will reveal that there are parts of the Moses and Elijah stories that would have been of much relevance to Jesus; He found himself faced with a similar situation to that of Moses and Elijah.

“Departure”: The original Greek word would be “exodus” and serves as a reminder of the Exodus event and an invitation to look at this situation in light of that event.

“Sleep”: If Jesus was praying and the disciples ended up sleeping, then it implies that they had no spiritual drive; they weren’t attuned to God; they were spiritually asleep.

“Master, it is good for us to be here.....”: This is the most important part of the passage and I will explain its meaning a bit later on in my post.

“cloud”: A symbol for God’s presence. If you look at all of the times when a cloud comes into the picture (throughout the Bible), you’ll soon find that it either symbolises God’s presence or else God reveals Himself through the cloud.

“Jesus was found alone” : It presents Christians with the awareness that we do not need anyone else. We are left with the question, “Is Jesus enough for you?”

I’m going to present a simplified version of the chiasmus structure and give you the meaning of ‘X’. I omitted it intentionally so that it can once again reinforce the fact that one needs to approach the passage in context of what is taking place before and after it. There is an additional layer to this story that is found both, before and after this passage. Preceding the transfiguration event, one finds that Jesus predicts his passion and death (Mt 16: 21-28; Mk 8: 31-38; Lk 9:22-27) and we find the same thing taking place once they’ve gone back down Mount Tabor (Mt. 17: 12,22-23; Mk. 9:30-32; 10: 32-34; Lk 9:43-45,51)


Jesus’ prediction of His passion and death
A Jesus and the disciples go up the mountain
B Jesus is with Moses and Elijah
C The disciples see the glory of Jesus
X Peter opts for the status quo
C ‘ The disciples hear the glory of Jesus confirmed
Jesus is alone
Jesus and the disciples come down the mountain
Jesus’ prediction of His passion and death

“Master, it is good for us to be here....” Peter looks at their current situation. They are despised by the Jewish religious authorities and Jesus has just made them aware that a hit has been put out for him. He is able to identify that they are safe on Mount Tabor and they don’t have to deal with the aggravation of people following them etc. Life’s good up on Mount Tabor. They are able to relax etc. and so he says, “Why don’t we stay here?; life’s good as it is; let’s ignore the mission?”

The message of this story (and our own self application) would be, “When you’re up on your mountain where life couldn’t be better and you know that, when you go back down that mountain, your life as you know it stands to fall apart, what will you do? ....because if you do opt to go back down and your life does in fact fall apart, hold onto the hope that this is when the transformation of the human heart takes place; a new order will not only take place in your life, but you stand to become a greater person in the process”.

To a large degree this pretty much sums up how the Bible ought to be approached and put to use. The role of the Christian church along with its leaders ought to be one where, instead of preaching and putting the fear of God into people, they ought to devote their sermon to breaking open the passage to their congregation so that it’s understandable, seen in context of life back then and life today and then the congregation as a whole ought to measure themselves up against the broken Word. In an ideal world and setting, each individual ought to spend the week pondering the passage and holding himself/herself up to it. >THIS< is where the Biblical challenge ought to come from. It’s not about Bible thumping or using Biblical passages to suit one’s private agendas, it ought to be used to build up, to encourage and to also face ONESELF down.
 

biguy2738

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Unfortunately the theology of the Israelites included their identifying God&#8217;s hand at work in illness and suffering (as a means of punishment) and they also saw his hand at work in war and bloodthirst which leaves us with soooo many negative connotations and perspectives. Yet in the midst of it, we find a God who seeks us out so that we may seek Him out in return and enter into a relationship with him...and none of it ought to involve fear. Fear is used to control the masses, yet the Bible teaches the complete opposite of that.

Let&#8217;s examine the concept of fear in the Bible. In the books of Psalms, Proverbs and the Prophets, we are constantly told to &#8220;fear the Lord&#8221; (e.g. &#8220;The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge&#8221; Prov 1: 7a)&#8221;. The thing though, is do we understand what kind of fear it is that the Bible is talking about? Within the context of the abovementioned quotation and others like that, we find that the Hebrew root of &#8220;fear&#8221; is &#8220;yarah&#8221; which means, &#8220;revere&#8221;. We are called to revere God, not tremble before Him.

In fact, to take things even further than that, God says &#8220;Do not be afraid&#8221; 68 times in the Bible, going from the Old Testament right across to the New Testament. What does that say? Consider a mother catching her son doing something very naughty. Her response would be something like, &#8220;Don&#8217;t you ever, EVER, EVER, EEEEEEEEVER do that again!&#8221;

The message that we find booming right throughout the Bible and in my opinion, is expressed best in the First Letter of John, is:

&#8220;We have known and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgement, because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love.
We love because He first loved us.&#8221;
(1 John 4: 16-19)

The fact of the matter is that just as the Bible is a book of man&#8217;s gradual understanding of God and that it took place through stopping and determining His hand at work in lives and communities, it also implies that our understanding continues to grow and transcend right up until today...God is still talking and if we refuse to listen to his voice and restrict it to the Bible, then it means that we&#8217;ve decided to gag Him.

I apologise for the length of my post and I thank you for reading it. I personally believe that we are all entitled to our own personal beliefs and faith. Truth be told, faith is something very personal. I have no need or desire to try to change anybody&#8217;s mind or point of view, you are entitled to yours just as I am entitled to mine. So much as I offered an in depth exploration/explanation of the Bible, it&#8217;s up to you to decide what you would like to do with it. For me, I know that there are many gay and bi Christians who are either faced with judgmental and Bible thumping Christians or else they grapple with reconciling being gay/bi and Christian. This post is written for them before anybody else, and I hope that it will serve as encouragement for them to explore things for themselves, equip themselves with the necessary tools to read and interpret the Bible responsibly and to then draw their own conclusions for themselves.
 
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deleted213967

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I think if you are Gay and clinging to jesus... you are doing so unreasoningly.

Forget about "gay". The treatment of homosexuality in biblical texts is nebulous at best (hence all sides each citing scriptures in support of their claims).

How do you reconcile being a Christian woman?

The bibles are at least unequivocal on the place of females in the human theater: props at best.

 
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deleted213967

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Yet some 1.8 billion Christians belong to denominations that see the Bible as inspired, authoritative but not inerrant. And this tradition is thousands of years old.

This seems to be the mantra of the liberal brand of Christianity. Fair enough, but how does the so-called "moderate" Christian determine what is errant and what in inerrant and live his or her life accordingly?

Open the door to all-you-can-eat interpretation and you end up with as many Christianities as there are Christians.

Admittedly, this may explain why the various biblical versions still sell so well.
 
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Principessa

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You can't pray away the gay!!!
~Callie on Grey's Anatomy

I guess I don't get around much, but I don 't know any gay atheists or agnostics in real life. :confused: All are either some branch of Christian or Jewish. My best friend actually converted from Presbyterian to Catholic in his 20's because he was dating a Catholic priest at the time.

I understand the question; but it has never occurred to me to ask how they reconcile their faith, with their life. I think that is probably an individual thing and varies by person.
 

Drifterwood

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I understand the question; but it has never occurred to me to ask how they reconcile their faith, with their life. I think that is probably an individual thing and varies by person.

I see it more as a question of reconciling lifestyle with faith, rather than faith with lifestyle. It is an interesting distinction and one which underpins the thoughtful approaches of BiGuy and JA, whereas an authoritarian imposition of the "laws" of a faith is how I was looking at it. Perhaps this is a way to distinguish the dogmatic denominations from the progressive.
 

jason_els

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I apologise for the length of my post and I thank you for reading it. I personally believe that we are all entitled to our own personal beliefs and faith. Truth be told, faith is something very personal. I have no need or desire to try to change anybody’s mind or point of view, you are entitled to yours just as I am entitled to mine. So much as I offered an in depth exploration/explanation of the Bible, it’s up to you to decide what you would like to do with it. For me, I know that there are many gay and bi Christians who are either faced with judgmental and Bible thumping Christians or else they grapple with reconciling being gay/bi and Christian. This post is written for them before anybody else, and I hope that it will serve as encouragement for them to explore things for themselves, equip themselves with the necessary tools to read and interpret the Bible responsibly and to then draw their own conclusions for themselves.

[truncated for brevity only]

Brilliant, intelligible, and one of the reasons why you're one of my fave people here.

You have such a kind and introspective soul.:hug:
 

HazelGod

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Nobody is out there forcing the Roman SPQR onto the money.
Actually, I would much rather see an analogue of SPQR on our modern money than In God We Trust.

As a side note, it was quite cool to walk around Rome and see this 2000+ year old sigil still in modern usage.
 

jason_els

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So what?

Nobody is basing a RELIGION on Pilate being a prelate. Nobody is out their forcing the Roman SPQR onto the money.
What little factual information may be in the bible is not the issue.
People are forming religions around the HOGWASH that is in the bible.

The magical stories of magical people and miracles.
The magical stories promising everyone that that whole death thing we all can see coming is not really an end.

If, as has been suggested, it is okay to discard the magical stories from the OLD testament as being invalid.... as describing a false image of God as vindictive, cruel and capricious... then that is not ME attacking the validity of the hogwash, that is a purported BELIEVER telling me that they discriminate between one brand of Hogwash and another purely on the grounds that they think the New Testament hogwash is sweeter tasting.

They are stipulating to the fact that stories describing the magical sky daddy CAN be hogwash... and their ONLY criteria for determining which ones they personally choose to accept is whether they "Like" the magical sky daddy being described.

It is not reasonable to make such a selection on zero factual information.
Given that, ever since we have had the ability to record and accurately investigate events, there have been NO unequivocal miracles observed, Given that the people who wrote the bible clearly made shit up about the magical sky daddy that Just Asking does not think is true... the reasonable assumption is that stories of magical sky daddys are, as a class, made up.
And, since Just Asling is, in fact, discarding the OLDER portion of the bible as invalid, he has no basis on which to believe that any portion of the bible is valid because of its priority or it age. i.e. that it has been around so long is not contributory to its validity, else the Old Testament would be MORE valid than the new.

That being established, that Just Asking is taking it upon himself to choose which narratives he will believe in and which he will not... then it makes no sense to believe in ANY narrative from a book wherein ALL the authors take pains to castigate his particular sexual orientation as a crime against magical sky daddys.

If he is going to cobble together his own belief system.. which, allow me to point out I fully believe he has every right to do, if he has the personal authority to choose what to believe in, then he has no reason for believing ANY of the bible, and certainly no ground on which to stand and suggest that other people's interpretation of the bible is less correct than his own cherry picked assemblage.

It is a plain fact that Judeo-Christian religions demonize sexuality in general.

Why not pick the magical sky daddy's of Greece, who would endorse his lifestyle?

Why not make up his own entirely?

What is the reasoned purpose behind embracing a figurehead from one particular tradition, and ignoring that figureheads own endorsement of Leviticus?

The only reasons I can i fnd to explain such a position are the indoctrinated prejudices of youth, or the need to believe in something popular enough that you can feel that you belong to a given group.
Neither of which have the slightest thing to do with faith.

I think if you are Gay and clinging to jesus... you are doing so unreasoningly.

I don't think Jesus hated fags, I think he had compassion for them... but, just as with the adultress, he would tell you to go and sin no more.

In this, I tend to agree with you which is why I can never call myself a Christian. I don't find any one religion more nor less legitimate than any other. I often wonder what happens to old gods no one believes in any more just like that episode of Star Trek. Maybe if I did worship Zeus he'd pay more attention to me than the Christian god because there would be fewer people to look after.

I do not think Jesus would have called homosexual sex a sin. There's no evidence to show that he believed it to be a sin. The sin he most condemned, quite furiously, is hypocrisy and if you're longing to do nothing but have sex with people of the same sex but are forced to have sex with people of the opposite sex and so do that, then that's hypocritical in the extreme. I think Jesus would more than likely have said, "You know what? Just be yourself, treat people as you would want them to treat you, and love God."
 
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