How should the Irish Church be brought to justice?

[Drifterwood]

A bishop has shed a few tears on TV and said he is ashamed, but the fact is that the church in Ireand had endemic child abuse of all types and systematically covered it up.

What secular justice should the church face?

 

[HellsKitchenmanNYC]

Doesn't seem they ever face any except their internal justice which probably consists of moving accused priests around. I might be wrong but this seems to be their game. Except a few lawsuits where the victims were paid of I can't think of any clerics going to jail.

 

[Drifterwood]

Doesn't seem they ever face any except their internal justice which probably consists of moving accused priests around. I might be wrong but this seems to be their game. Except a few lawsuits where the victims were paid of I can't think of any clerics going to jail.

Should they be treated any differently to a corporation that had raped many hundreds of children and then covered it up?

I'd like to see something like a $10 Billion fine. But I'm dreaming of course

 

[2322]

That's up to the people of Ireland. I think you're going to find a hefty difference of opinion on penalty based upon age.

 

[Drifterwood]

That's up to the people of Ireland.

Not completely. We have human rights courts and courts for crimes against humanity in Europe.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Realistically little enough is likely to actually happen. I'd be incredibly surprised if it did. It should, large numbers of the clergy should end being locked up, and a large law suit should be brought.

It's possible a big collective suit could end up being brought, some have already been settled by the Archdiocese which were brought by some victims against specific priests.

I think the churches role as a part of the fabric of the state and society here is going to finally collapse. Priests and monks and nuns have all but disappeared from schools run by the church here long ago. The prpoblem is that the church ran certain public services here for the government at a very competative rate, certainly more cheaply than the state could have run them itself. The hidden cost it turns out was too horrific to contemplate so things will certainly never be the same again.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Not completely. We have human rights courts and courts for crimes against humanity in Europe.

Who would bring the case ?

 

[HellsKitchenmanNYC]

Should they be treated any differently to a corporation that had raped many hundreds of children and then covered it up?

I'd like to see something like a $10 Billion fine. But I'm dreaming of course

No each any every cleric should have his arse dragged into court like a regular person would, have to register as a sex offender and be fined. We just had a big problem like this here in NYC w/rabbis also. very scandalous and hideous. So I guess that throws out the "if they were allowed to be married we'd have less of this".

 

[Drifterwood]

Who would bring the case ?

Let's wait and see. Milosevic is up for similar things.

No each any every cleric should have his arse dragged into court like a regular person would, have to register as a sex offender and be fined. We just had a big problem like this here in NYC w/rabbis also. very scandalous and hideous. So I guess that throws out the "if they were allowed to be married we'd have less of this".

The difference is that the institution was responsible for a cover up that created many hundreds more victims. They are guilty of a crime, and should be prosecuted as such, bishops and all.

If an airline covered up a fault that lead to many more victims, their ass wouldn't touch the floor. I think you call it punitive damages.

 

[2322]

I think you guys don't quite understand the Irish Catholic church or its relationship with the government and the people. There are still enough older people to whom this sort of thing would be equated with revolution. I don't know quite how to express it. The Irish are both very close to yet also very far away from the church. They're like siblings who don't get along; very hate/love/tolerate/need/refuse kind of a thing. It's not like the American Catholic church at all. I feel awful for Ireland. So much upheaval in such a short time. It's a wonder they all aren't raving mad by now.

 

[Drifterwood]

I understand it very well Jason, which is why I know that this is a pivotal moment.

 

[2322]

I understand it very well Jason, which is why I know that this is a pivotal moment.

Then you understand what it would mean for the Irish government. Do you think Cowen is up to this? He'd be risking the biggest conservative backlash possible. Fianna Fail could find itself in the woodshed if they went after the church which could then threaten to relinquish all its government associations.

 

[Drifterwood]

I know what your thoughts would be if it was the UK monarchy and aristocracy running a paedophile ring, and then not being brought to justice.

Ireland needs to deal with this, or get the hell out of Europe.

 

[HellsKitchenmanNYC]

Well that's the maiin problemw/the Catholic church. They've gotten away with things for ages and they do not like anyone telling them anything or invading their world.

 

[B_Hickboy]

I'm not Irish, so it's none of my business. Opinion? Yeah, I've got one. But I think it's a complete waste of time to tell another nation how it should deal with its own institutions.

 

[2322]

I know what your thoughts would be if it was the UK monarchy and aristocracy running a paedophile ring, and then not being brought to justice.

Ireland needs to deal with this, or get the hell out of Europe.

While the monarch may technically be the head of a church that what, 1% of Brits? belong to, this is different. Aristos don't hold your salvation in their hands, they don't provide the spiritual bulwark of the country nor control its education, social welfare, or medical system. The Catholic church partners with the government on all of these. Rightly or wrongly, they're far more ingrained in Ireland than the aristocrats of the UK.

My thoughts are along the line of "hang 'em high," but I don't believe that's a practical political response to this situation for the government and I'm not certain it best serves the people of Ireland in the long run. I WISH IT DID. The pragmatist in me doubts it's feasible or politically/economically acceptable.

 

[cock23]

Let's wait and see. Milosevic is up for similar things.

But he's dead.

And to anwser the original question....I have no idea. But I suspect that all that will happen is that there will be endless grovelling public apologies and official letters sent by the Church to all the victims or something similar. I doubt that any siginificant "justice" as such will be done.

 

[Drifterwood]

I'm not certain it best serves the people of Ireland in the long run.

I think it will, but that is slightly beside the point here. You have law or you don't.

 

[cock23]

I think it will, but that is slightly beside the point here. You have law or you don't.

But unfortunately influential people/institutions have a habit of being above the law. Look at the whole MP's expenses scandal. Who was put in prison for that? No one. All they got was a slap on the wirst to say "don't do it again" and some were forced to make a public apology. At worst, they were forced to resign and re-pay the money they stole.

And if that happened anywhere else in any normal workplace in the UK , somebody would have ended up in prison for fraud.

 

[2322]

I think it will, but that is slightly beside the point here. You have law or you don't.

So who does Justice serve? The stronger? The greatest number of people? The victims? The government? I'm not holding my breath here. I tend to think along the lines of cock23 who has a good point about what happened (nothing) to the MPs.