How should the Irish Church be brought to justice?

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Let's wait and see. Milosevic is up for similar things.



The difference is that the institution was responsible for a cover up that created many hundreds more victims. They are guilty of a crime, and should be prosecuted as such, bishops and all.

If an airline covered up a fault that lead to many more victims, their ass wouldn't touch the floor. I think you call it punitive damages.

I know what your thoughts would be if it was the UK monarchy and aristocracy running a paedophile ring, and then not being brought to justice.

Ireland needs to deal with this, or get the hell out of Europe.

OK hold on here, you're getting way ahead of yourself here. These reports, the Dublin Arch-diocese and the Ferns report e.t.c. they undoubtedly uncover a massive and completely horrific and disgusting array of crimes commited by a well organised and well funded entity i.e. the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland.

Certainly if these crimes had been committed since 2006 and colluded in, in the organised fashion the reports outline then it might be possible to bring some kind of case.

However there is no European court they could be brought before, the crimes did not take place after 2006, and they couldn't be brought before the European Court of Human Rights because they are not a state. But they haven't committed the kinds of crimes which could see them brought before the same kinds of tribunal as Milosevic or Karadjic or other accused War criminals since they haven't broken international warcrimes conventions.

The individual criminals may be brought before Irish national courts and doubtless they will be and are being. So again who would bring this international court case and before what court ?


Now to this other business, Britain involved itself in a war in which many thousands, possible hundreds of thousands died on the basis of fraudulently prepared documents full of phony intelligence as a way of currying favour with the US, and your saying that Ireland has to get out of the EU because of these reports ?

How many children have died in Iraq and Afghanistan ? And for what ? So Britain can enjoy some mythical "special relationship" with the US ?

Seriously lets not get in to which countries list of failures of morality disqualify them from being members of the EU, there would be no members of the EU left.

 

[Guy-jin]

There is much irony here.

 

[Drifterwood]

So who does Justice serve? The stronger? The greatest number of people? The victims?

Bingo - the victims.

Everything else is less important, and anyone throwing red herrings at this issue by saying but look at such and such, is I am afraid an apologist for these crimes.

Should we tell child victims of abuse that we have no power over those who abuse them. that their abusers are above the law and can act with impunity?

No.

It's that simple.

 

[vince]

More than just the Christian Brothers and higher church officials should be prosecuted. The government inspectors and agencies that turned a blind eye and failed to stop the abuse, need to brought to account as well.

 

[justasimpleguy]

Ireland's Roman Catholic archbishops 'covered up abuse to protect church's reputation' - Telegraph
I guess the number is 46 of something like 150. That is, about ONE THIRD of the priests in the Dublin diocese were molesting children. One man is accused of molesting over 100 children.
And they systematically COVERED IT UP. Crimes against humanity. No question.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

What secular justice should the church face?

Exactly the same justice as anyone else involved in similar crimes and cover ups would face. What else?

 

[Scot22]

One Irish male victim of priest abuse said on BBC TV that he wanted the Pope to visit Ireland,make a profound apology on behalf of his Church,and promptly return to the Vatican.
This abuse cannot be ignored.
He should condemn Church paedophiles as strongly and regularly,as he and his clergy worldwide,regularly condemn homosexuality.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Bingo - the victims.

Everything else is less important, and anyone throwing red herrings at this issue by saying but look at such and such, is I am afraid an apologist for these crimes.

Should we tell child victims of abuse that we have no power over those who abuse them. that their abusers are above the law and can act with impunity?

No.

It's that simple.

I agree with you, if I ran this country the entire church would be wound up and there would be mass prosecutions underway right now and cases being brought against the papacy and vast sums of church money would be being confiscated and forked over to abuse charities and abuse survivors.

Unfortuntely Ireland isn't run by me as dictator it's like any other democratic coutry, it has laws, and we'll have to wait and see if the church and each individual abuser within it can be successfully punished for the awful things which have gone on. I'm more confident that the church will face punishment, and indeed should face punishment, under Irish national law and in our courts, and I'm not confident that it could be punished by any international courts since there is no court in Europe anyway, which deals with these kinds of crimes or in which the church could legally face judgement.


And frankly Drifterwood, I'm not sure who you're calling an apologist, I sincerely hope it's not anyone who's responded to this thread, if it is you should say so, and if it is you should apologise. I'm not a roman catholic, I'm not even baptised, personally I despise roman catholicism, not just the church, but I happen to be realisitic about the chances of the church facing punishment and I don't allow my anger at what the church has done to colour my opinion of what is realisitically likely or possible to happen now. You asked a purely practical question, "how" , I answered that, you didn't ask "If you could punish the church, how would you?" that's very different.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

I wish people would stop equating child abuse with adult consensual sex.

The men and women that abuse children do not do so because they are closet homosexuals, because they are not allowed to marry (in the cases mentioned above) or for any other reason to do with adult sexuality.

Priests, monks and nuns who feel the need for normal sexual companionship / release / whatever do so with other consenting adults, either clandestinely or they renounce their vows and rejoin the lay community - or some of them just deal with it and keep their vows. They don't abuse children.

Child abuse is not a sexual act, regardless of whether the attack is sexual in nature - child abuse is a power trip. Not one child abuser could have been pre-emptively cured by a 'good seeing to' from an adult.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

I wish people would stop equating child abuse with adult consensual sex.

The men and women that abuse children do not do so because they are closet homosexuals, because they are not allowed to marry (in the cases mentioned above) or for any other reason to do with adult sexuality.

Priests, monks and nuns who feel the need for normal sexual companionship / release / whatever do so with other consenting adults, either clandestinely or they renounce their vows and rejoin the lay community - or some of them just deal with it and keep their vows. They don't abuse children.

Child abuse is not a sexual act, regardless of whether the attack is sexual in nature - child abuse is a power trip. Not one child abuser could have been pre-emptively cured by a 'good seeing to' from an adult.

This is quite true, and it's all the more repellent that this organisation used the words of someone who taught that the meek shall inherent the earth to justify itself and its exhistence, the vicious hypocrisy and revolting immorality is complete. Roman catholicism has nothing to do with morality in fact and should have no authority in moral teaching, it exists exclusively to perpetuate its own power, even to perpetuate the most evil and destructive power over the most vulnerable people in society.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

This is quite true, and it's all the more repellent that this organisation used the words of someone who taught that the meek shall inherent the earth to justify itself and its exhistence, the vicious hypocrisy and revolting immorality is complete. Roman catholicism has nothing to do with morality in fact and should have no authority in moral teaching, it exists exclusively to perpetuate its own power, even to perpetuate the most evil and destructive power over the most vulnerable people in society.

That's not the point I was making. That is your own point.

The theology and dogma of any religious instituation should not be confused with the practises of the people in its service. There is nothing in RC theology that says child abuse is OK - That doesn't make things any better for the people who were abused, nor for their families, of course. But you can't tell me that all the good things I have seen done by the Church and in its name are null and void.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

That's not the point I was making. That is your own point.

The theology and dogma of any religious instituation should not be confused with the practises of the people in its service. There is nothing in RC theology that says child abuse is OK - That doesn't make things any better for the people who were abused, nor for their families, of course. But you can't tell me that all the good things I have seen done by the Church and in its name are null and void.

I neither said that was your point nor claimed that church theology allowed child abuse, there's no need to put words in my mouth.


My point is that the RC church has lost moral authority, and that it has proven on countless occassions of which this is only the latest that it exists purely to excercise and control power. What acts of true goodness it is capable of have as little to do with its theology or dogma as do its acts of unspeakable wickedness.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

A proper punishment? Nothing that some well deserved, individualized prison terms as well as a loss of tax exemption status couldn't take care of. Then again, I don't know much regarding Irish Law or their churches so I'll refrain from making any detailed statement.

 

[B_Stronzo]

A bishop has shed a few tears on TV and said he is ashamed, but the fact is that the church in Ireand had endemic child abuse of all types and systematically covered it up.

What secular justice should the church face?

As a Bostonian who's witnessed this phenomenon several years ago I was only waiting for it to appear (abuses of all forms) in the Roman Catholic church in other countries in due course.

When I think Roman Catholic the two primary countries that come to mind are Ireland and Italy. Both countries are still immersed in the delusion of traditional religious dogma to such a degree that in the Irish R.C. church it's - to many - an integral part of their inability to think with independence of thought.

In Italy (since I have a certain familiarity with this country) the present up and coming generation is not church-goinging to any great degree but the Roman Catholic socialization is still fully intact.

I have no idea how this Church (so long a bastion of double standards and ritual) should deal with present abuses but I can say that in the ideal the bloody church would be dismantled. The Roman Catholic church, from my perspective, is singly THE most detrimental phenomenon to human growth - both spiritually and secularly.

The R.C. church is a natural hiding place for frustrated homosexual priests in denial since the church's stance is so endlessly reaffirmed (as we see in the passing of Prop 8 vote in California) that guilt-ridden Roman Catholic boys who are born homosexual refuse to embrace it as their truth. That church's intrusion into the day-to-day lives of thinking and thoughtful individuals is a brazen affront to any one of us who thinks with a modicum of independence and insight.

Quite frankly that church has no business influencing anything or anybody in our society.

But after a great frenzy in the Boston area the whole child abuse affair has largely died down. The church has not changed. Archbishop Law was given a position in Rome and not held accountable for what he knew in any great way.

It's an incessant source of confoundment to me that the Roman Catholic church gets away with what it does as if it's untouchable to the laws and restrictions that affect any other business in any country where it holds sway.

If there was any doubt of what I think of Roman Catholicism I hope this clears it up.

Drifterwood? It's bullshit. They won't do anything of any great consequence to change things in order that the R.C. church is held accountable and the offending parties are brought to justice. I witnessed it in its entirety here in Boston.

My most liberal friend (raised an Irish-American Roman Catholic) from my youth is a self-professed hardcore left-wing Democrat. When, several years ago, the petition to put same sex marriage up to popular vote was circulated she signed in favor of abolishing what the Massachusetts Supreme Court had mandated. When I asked her why she said only:

"Marriage is between a man and a woman".

When I asked the basis of this belief she responded:

"It just is. Everyone knows that."

There you have it. This R.C. shit is so early-indoctrinated into the minds of Roman Catholic children that even the most liberal (and supposedly liberated) of its dissenters reverts to kind when it comes to human rights.

It is my fervent belief that more damage has been done to humankind in the name of Jesus Christ (not His fault) by misled "Christians" than any other religion of equal influence. Until that church is either done away with or made to make sweeping reforms expect NOTHING but more of same.

** please note I use the adjective "Roman" in reference to topic at hand to distinguish it from the Holy Catholic church more familiarly known as the Anglican Church or Church of England.

Ireland needs to deal with this, or get the hell out of Europe.

Indeed it does. All of the Roman Catholic portion of Ireland have their heads buried clearly in the sand.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

When was the last time you visited Ireland Stronzo ? Because I don't recognise the country you're describing. Ireland is not "immersed in a delusion of traditional dogma" I'm sorry to shatter your illusions.

 

[Drifterwood]

I don't have any time right now to answer many of the contentious things that I may have started, but I would like to say that the behaviour of some priests has nothing to do with the essence of the faith and to some extent the wider church, though clearly there has been an institutionalised problem within this diocese and probaly wider in Ireland.

I think you know that some of my very favourite people (here and beyond) are catholic.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

When was the last time you visited Ireland Stronzo ? Because I don't recognise the country you're describing. Ireland is not "immersed in a delusion of traditional dogma" I'm sorry to shatter your illusions.

Now there you have my full agreement. You note he also refers to the Irish people's "inability to think with independence of thought". Citations, please!

But hilaire, just so you don't bother letting this little man ruffle you, it might interest you to know that Stronzo, upon discovering I was Irish, took it upon himself to make all sorts of strange anti-Irish references (e.g. "Don't forget darling? You're great grandmother was my great grandmother's scullery maid." and "The Irish are always so good with menial tasks.") and even went so far as to post an image of some Black and Tans loitering outside a rural house while the family looked out, suggesting what exactly I'm not sure - he seemed to think it was a right giggle.

Stronzo is, you see, a terrible bigot and snob. I wouldn't bother engaging in argument with him - he invariably falls back on indefesible cack as per above (to which I'd happily link, but it is a banable offence here). It really isn't worth your brain power.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Now there you have my full agreement. You note he also refers to the Irish people's "inability to think with independence of thought". Citations, please!

But hilaire, just so you don't bother letting this little man ruffle you, it might interest you to know that Stronzo, upon discovering I was Irish, took it upon himself to make all sorts of strange anti-Irish references (e.g. "Don't forget darling? You're great grandmother was my great grandmother's scullery maid." and "The Irish are always so good with menial tasks.") and even went so far as to post an image of some Black and Tans loitering outside a rural house while the family looked out, suggesting what exactly I'm not sure - he seemed to think it was a right giggle.

Stronzo is, you see, a terrible bigot and snob. I wouldn't bother engaging in argument with him - he invariably falls back on indefesible cack as per above (to which I'd happily link, but it is a banable offence here). It really isn't worth your brain power.

Thanks I'll bear that in mind MB :smile: . There really are some odd people around, if only they'd keep their ugly to themelves

 

[B_Stronzo]

When was the last time you visited Ireland Stronzo ? Because I don't recognise the country you're describing. Ireland is not "immersed in a delusion of traditional dogma" I'm sorry to shatter your illusions.

I last visited in 1997. Before that it was in the 80s at some point.

And you've shattered nothing.

But please hilarie, I invite you, come to Boston. You're Roman Catholic church is alive, well, and endlessly in denial as it has been every since the exodus of the Irish in the 19th century to this area and its infliction of its religious dogma on an austensibly diverse society. I want Roman Catholicism out of my bedroom and to that end I will stand against your church until it falls.

** and contrary to what this banisters woman postulates I'm not bigoted against thinking people only against those who refuse to free themselves from the shackles of unconscious behavior ill-based on rote indoctrination she learned at some priest's knee.

She's the perfect illustration of what that religion does to an otherwise thinking individual.

Here's her selective reasoning:

it might interest you to know that Stronzo, upon discovering I was Irish, took it upon himself to make all sorts of strange anti-Irish references (e.g. "Don't forget darling? You're great grandmother was my great grandmother's scullery maid."

Stung huh? Good. That was it's intent after the way you were coming after me like the mannerless unkind woman you are.

Pay back's a bitch.

You and your Charleston boyfriend were having at me and playing extra-dirty at the unmentionable site. I'd never encountered either of you before. And you two thought you were oh-so-clever and for some unknown reason needed to find yourselves a victim. I wasn't your boy and the rest is history. But hey.. it's awfully nice to see you two aren't pouting any longer.

Had you been respectful and not gone dirty you'd have found me most agreeabe. You play nice. I play nice. But you don't know how since the chip on your shoulder is so imbedded (think Roman Catholic church).

You're not nearly as clever as you think you are.

You're just angry. Take it out elsewhere.

I am now out of this pissing contest. Byeee :smile:

It wasn't one until your arrival. See ya.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Note to all sane people reading this thread.

hilaire has already declared himself as NOT a Catholic.

I was raised by an atheist and an agnostic.

I am now out of this pissing contest. Byeee :smile: