How should the Irish Church be brought to justice?

[Incocknito]

Ireland is very traditional and very Catholic. They still have those traditional funerals which last three days.

As for the punishment; I hope they are sent to prison. This is till only the tip of the iceberg. This culture of 'paedophile priests' is a pandemic.

I just find it unsettling that people 'in the service of God' do such evil things to the most innocent and vulnerable people.

What sort of God is allowing his own priests to sexually molest and rape children? Or is paedophilia condoned somewhere in the bible?

 

[Scot22]

In Scotland we are repeatedly told by the senior Catholic clergy,including the Cardinal,standing on his Cathedral's steps,that being gay is "disgusting". This news item and film was perpetuated by the Press and TV stations across the UK for almost a week.

This,just shortly after a number of revelations regarding priests and children.

Only a few weeks ago,many adults,male and female, who were abused as children in the care of the Catholic church in Scotland,have consulted lawyers re PRIVATE CRIMINAL prosecutions against these priests.
The Scottish Prosecuting Authority says there is,in law,"insufficient evidence" to bring a State prosecution.

As tax payers we subsidise their many schools,where presumably these homophobic utterings are taught as fact.

The Pope is visiting Britain next year,where no doubt he will tell us his Church is loving and caring. With the words,"disgusting","unnatural" etc. still dripping from the Cardinal's lips the word 'hypocrisy' jumps instantly to mind.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Ireland is very traditional and very Catholic. They still have those traditional funerals which last three days.

Sorry, yes we still have our own funeral culture here, but NO Ireland is not "very traditional and very Catholic". I think you've either misinterpreted whatever you have encountered of Irish culture or are simply not very familiar with what modern Ireland is actually like.

Though of course I don't disagree with anything else you say. :wink:

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Child abuse is not a sexual act, regardless of whether the attack is sexual in nature - child abuse is a power trip. Not one child abuser could have been pre-emptively cured by a 'good seeing to' from an adult.

I have never understood this, and still don't.
The same thing is said about adult rape of another adult.
Why is it not sexual?
My question is serious.

Roman catholicism has nothing to do with morality in fact and should have no authority in moral teaching, it exists exclusively to perpetuate its own power, even to perpetuate the most evil and destructive power over the most vulnerable people in society.

I'm not a Christian, do not hold religious beliefs, and am no fan of the RCC.
But Hilaire, I do think you go too far here.
There's too much of an either/or tendency in your thinking here, imo.
Like any enormous power structure, the RCC has perpetrated enormities throughout its history.
But it has also done its share of good.

But after a great frenzy in the Boston area the whole child abuse affair has largely died down. The church has not changed. Archbishop Law was given a position in Rome and not held accountable for what he knew in any great way..... They won't do anything of any great consequence to change things in order that the R.C. church is held accountable and the offending parties are brought to justice. I witnessed it in its entirety here in Boston.

Well, that is what happened in Boston.
That doesn't mean that justice will not be better served in Ireland.

In Newfoundland, here in Canada, the Christian Brothers of Ireland in Canada (CBIC) ran the Mount Cashel Orphanage in St. John's, which saw sexual abuse against many residents over several decades.
There have been inquiries.
A bishop has resigned.
Many priests entered court with lawyers and walked out with handcuffs.
Millions of dollars was paid by the Newfoundland government to victims, which then sought compensation from the Christian Brothers of Ireland.
Much, perhaps most, of the property of the CBIC across Canada has been sold to repay the government.
As for the orphanage itself, it was closed, then torn down, and the property sold to developers.
The money from that sale was added to the large sums that had already gone to the victims.

I don't know whether the Boston or the Newfoundland example will be reflected in what happens in Ireland.
I do know that there are two very different sorts of example.

...the behaviour of some priests has nothing to do with the essence of the faith and to some extent the wider church....

I would agree with that, Drifter.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

I'm not a Christian, do not hold religious beliefs, and am no fan of the RCC.
But Hilaire, I do think you go too far here.
There's too much of an either/or tendency in your thinking here, imo.
Like any enormous power structure, the RCC has perpetrated enormities throughout its history.
But it has also done its share of good.

Like I said before, I'm mystified as to why we're expected to see the enormities as nothing to do with doctrine and yet the good works as being somehow the true nature of Roman catholic doctrine, both have nothing to do with RC dotrine or theology in my opinion and everything to do with humanity.

As to my personal opinion about RC christianity I'm not sure I even agree it has done so great a good that non-catholics should have any patience with it either as a religion or as an organisation and I am at a loss as to why I should temporise about that. As free as the Pope is to despise me or more accurately the sin of being me, I am free to despise him and his theology and his religion and the organisation which promotes all these things.

I'm not sure that me not despising or despising him really makes any kind of difference, to anyone.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I'm not sure that me not despising or despising him really makes any kind of difference, to anyone.

It makes a difference to you.

 

[Drifterwood]

Hi

The issue is one of an organisation being above the law. With regard to the State Vs Church authority issue, this has torn apart Europe too many times and caused conflict in some place or another almost continuously since the reformation.

It is my personal view that a modern Europe needs to bury this issue finally in favour of secularism. If Ireland can not do this and mean it, then I don't see that they can be part of a modern Europe. My POV and others would say that the UK should fuck off if they can't adhere to common foreign policy and economic policy. Their POV, I have heard it several times and they are very well welcome and justified to have it.

Whilst the Priests are the perpetrators, the church worsened the situation. They carry much responsibility. I am hoping for a Newfie style resolution.

 

[eurotop40]

I am of italian descent and I know very well how the Catholic Church has this desire to dominate society. This is particularly dangerous in countries where there is virtually no alternative, such as Italy, Ireland, Poland etc. Although I still prefer to be of catholic education and sentiments, I recognize that it is unbelievable how the Church terrrorizes simple people with the scare of burning in hell if they miss Sunday mass and then hide child abuse by pedophile priests.

Well that's the maiin problemw/the Catholic church. They've gotten away with things for ages and they do not like anyone telling them anything or invading their world.

 

[vince]

I said it before and the point was not taken up here. Secular society, governments, the police, NGOs, families and congregations, all must bear some responsibility for turning a blind eye to the abuse that some of them had to know damn well was going on.

This was a nine year investigation which has produced a 2600 page report. It took nine years to investigate, while the abuse continued and in the end no charges have been laid?-

"But its findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions — in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report. No real names, whether of victims or perpetrators, appear in the final document."

CBC News - Nfld. & Labrador - Church-run schools in Ireland condoned decades of abuse: report

Wednesday's report said children had no safe way to tell authorities about the assaults they were suffering, particularly the sexual aggression from church officials and older inmates in boys' institutions.

The report said Education Department inspectors visited infrequently, warned church authorities in advance they were coming and typically did not speak to any child residents.

"The management did not listen to or believe children when they complained," the commission found. "At best, the abusers were moved, but nothing was done about the harm done to the child. At worst, the child was blamed and seen as corrupted by the sexual activity, and was punished severely."

 

[1kmb1]

give them a spanking.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

It makes a difference to you.

Yes, to me, but no one else :smile::wink:

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

I said it before and the point was not taken up here. Secular society, governments, the police, NGOs, families and congregations, all must bear some responsibility for turning a blind eye to the abuse that some of them had to know damn well was going on.

This was a nine year investigation which has produced a 2600 page report. It took nine years to investigate, while the abuse continued and in the end no charges have been laid?-

"But its findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions — in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report. No real names, whether of victims or perpetrators, appear in the final document."

CBC News - Nfld. & Labrador - Church-run schools in Ireland condoned decades of abuse: report

Wednesday's report said children had no safe way to tell authorities about the assaults they were suffering, particularly the sexual aggression from church officials and older inmates in boys' institutions.

The report said Education Department inspectors visited infrequently, warned church authorities in advance they were coming and typically did not speak to any child residents.

"The management did not listen to or believe children when they complained," the commission found. "At best, the abusers were moved, but nothing was done about the harm done to the child. At worst, the child was blamed and seen as corrupted by the sexual activity, and was punished severely."

I couldn't agree with you more about secular authorities here bearing a substantial portion of the blame here, and it remains to be seen whether those responsible will be properly dealt with by the law.

I don't think that we can necessarily rule out the prospect that this report will ultimately lead to prosecutions despite the fact that names were redacted after a legal challenge by the church. The victims know the names and the information regarding them still remains in possession of the authorities. A criminal investigation would undoubtedly be given access to any redacted details necessary for prosecution.

The report is just published, deciding now that Ireland is incapable of properly dealing with this issue is premature.