How To Teach Us History

wallyj84

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All this talk about critical race theory has me wondering if it is possible to teach US History in a way that is honest without mentioning America's history of systemic racism?

I don't personally care for the 1619 project, however you can't talk about the creation of the constitution without mentioning the 3/5 compromise and slavery in the colonies. You can't discuss the Indian Wars period without mentioning the mistreatment of the native Americans. Black codes, Jim Crow, the list goes on and on. America does have a real history of systemic racism.

I don't see how you can have an honest discussion of US History without a significant chunk of it mentioning white supremacist thinking or systemic racism. Do you?
 

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A realistic account of US history even in academic circles is very difficult to find - Primarily because historians and sociologists are incentivised to pick a narrative not only to convey a consistent message to support their wider argument but also to make research captivating (Headline History). The mistake many make is taking historical information at face value because the majority don’t hold the skills which allow them to critically analyse primary and secondary information. Resultantly there’s now a situation where 100+ years of academic research has been corrupted by a vicious cycle of Academic neglect feeding a media narrative in which the general population reward Historians who make great claims and ignore those who present measured arguments. This in my eyes is primarily driven on the Left by identity politics, in which rich white democrats attempt to weaponise poor minority voters. And possibly more nefariously on the Right a concerted effort to re-write history through false narrative and dog whistle politics, once again rich white people weaponising poor white people) while the left attempts to control the past through the present - the right has controlled the past through the future (particularly in the south). The effects of such policy are being seen, re-growth of the KKK, Increased racial violence. to link back to the question on critical race theory, it’s more of an antidote than a vaccine, the cancer in American society is the lazy educational culture which is to easily manipulated by external forces, the glorification of confederate history is the greatest example of this. If children were taught objectively to look at sources like those in Confederate history (the confederates wanted “freedom” narrative would be long defunct, because undoubtedly countless children would be rewarded for questioning “freedom” freedom to do what?. however with this shitshow that is the modern political landscape we’ve found out way into a second degree of primary source analysis upon which historians project their bias openly into sources to justify their political persuasion. a great example of this is the “slavery was virtuous” they got to dance on sundays. Some may even argue we’ve now reached the 3rd degree where historians challenge the validity of these statements ironically empowering those who wish to use them further. realistically no Critical Race Theory isn’t perfect, but unless the USA wants another generation of racially ignorant thinkers - its nessasery, at least until long term systemic changes to how we teach history and social science can be made.
 
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Klingsor

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A realistic account of US history even in academic circles is very difficult to find - Primarily because historians and sociologists are incentivised to pick a narrative not only to convey a consistent message to support their wider argument but also to make research captivating (Headline History). The mistake many make is taking historical information at face value because the majority don’t hold the skills which allow them to critically analyse primary and secondary information. Resultantly there’s now a situation where 100+ years of academic research has been corrupted by a vicious cycle of Academic neglect feeding a media narrative in which the general population reward Historians who make great claims and ignore those who present measured arguments. This in my eyes is primarily driven on the Left by identity politics, in which rich white democrats attempt to weaponise poor minority voters. And possibly more nefariously on the Right a concerted effort to re-write history through false narrative and dog whistle politics, once again rich white people weaponising poor white people) while the left attempts to control the past through the present - the right has controlled the past through the future (particularly in the south). The effects of such policy are being seen, re-growth of the KKK, Increased racial violence. to link back to the question on critical race theory, it’s more of an antidote than a vaccine, the cancer in American society is the lazy educational culture which is to easily manipulated by external forces, the glorification of confederate history is the greatest example of this. If children were taught objectively to look at sources like those in Confederate history (the confederates wanted “freedom” narrative would be long defunct, because undoubtedly countless children would be rewarded for questioning “freedom” freedom to do what?. however with this shitshow that is the modern political landscape we’ve found out way into a second degree of primary source analysis upon which historians project their bias openly into sources to justify their political persuasion. a great example of this is the “slavery was virtuous” they got to dance on sundays. Some may even argue we’ve now reached the 3rd degree where historians challenge the validity of these statements ironically empowering those who wish to use them further. realistically no Critical Race Theory isn’t perfect, but unless the USA wants another generation of racially ignorant thinkers - its nessasery, at least until long term systemic changes to how we teach history and social science can be made.

So academic corruption is driven on the left by "identity politics," in which "rich white democrats attempt to weaponise poor minority voters."

Talk about "picking a narrative"! This scenario leaves little room for the many significant black figures, both in and out of academia, who play important roles in raising awareness on racial issues. But perhaps they too have been "weaponised" by rich white people.
 

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So academic corruption is driven on the left by "identity politics," in which "rich white democrats attempt to weaponise poor minority voters."

Talk about "picking a narrative"! This scenario leaves little room for the many significant black figures, both in and out of academia, who play important roles in raising awareness on racial issues. But perhaps they too have been "weaponised" by rich white people.

Not really, it’s indisputable that regardless of contribution - dialogue on race in the USA is a conversation controlled by white people. As a microcosm of this Academia is much the same. Recognising that to promote racial equality requires more than pedestooling a curated gallery of black excellence was realised after the failure of WEB Du Bois and his “talented tenth”. It’s disingenuous, uninspiring and un-sustainable, robbing African Americans of rights and offering just as dangerous an impediment to civil progresssion as history denial and dogwhistke Polotics.
 

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sorry - who’s narrative hasn’t proven to be manipulative*

The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbon. And if you want to be foundational about it, History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides.

You’re ignoring historicism in favor of your interpretation of the literature. Authors, by virtue of being ignorant of what they don’t know, are naturally biased towards an interpretation. It isn’t manipulative, it’s human.
 

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Not really, it’s indisputable that regardless of contribution - dialogue on race in the USA is a conversation controlled by white people. As a microcosm of this Academia is much the same. Recognising that to promote racial equality requires more than pedestooling a curated gallery of black excellence was realised after the failure of WEB Du Bois and his “talented tenth”. It’s disingenuous, uninspiring and un-sustainable, robbing African Americans of rights and offering just as dangerous an impediment to civil progresssion as history denial and dogwhistke Polotics.

*Every* conversation in the USA (at least on mass media) is controlled, to an extent, by white people. Nonetheless, I'm far less dismissive of the contributions of black people to the ongoing dialogue on race than you appear to be.

But it doesn't much matter if our perspectives differ. And if you have any more specific thoughts about your proposed "long term systemic changes to how we teach history and social science," feel free to share them.
 

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Not really, it’s indisputable that regardless of contribution - dialogue on race in the USA is a conversation controlled by white people. As a microcosm of this Academia is much the same. Recognising that to promote racial equality requires more than pedestooling a curated gallery of black excellence was realised after the failure of WEB Du Bois and his “talented tenth”. It’s disingenuous, uninspiring and un-sustainable, robbing African Americans of rights and offering just as dangerous an impediment to civil progresssion as history denial and dogwhistke Polotics.


Du Bois’ talented tenth didn’t fail. It’s the reason why there is a civil rights act and there was an end to Jim Crow de jure segregation in the first place.
 

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I don't see how you can have an honest discussion of US History without a significant chunk of it mentioning white supremacist thinking or systemic racism. Do you?

No. And not just white supremacy but white Anglo-Saxon supremacy. All 13 colonies were English. The great waves of Irish, Italian, German and Scandinavian immigrants arrived the century following US independence.
 

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Du Bois’ talented tenth didn’t fail. It’s the reason why there is a civil rights act and there was an end to Jim Crow de jure segregation in the first place.


Du Bois’ talented tenth didn’t fail. It’s the reason why there is a civil rights act and there was an end to Jim Crow de jure segregation in the first place.

No that’s simply not true, Jim Crow ended far later - De-Facto through the actions of various civil rights groups (none closely related to Du Bois) I.e the SNCC student sit-ins, MIA/SCLC bus boycott and subsequent ride alongs. I’ll note that during all these actions Du Bois was living out his final years in Accra, Ghana.

While there’s a fleeting connection via the De-Jure approach in which you could argue Du Bois connection to the early NAACP somehow credits him for their later success. It certainly does not credit the “talented tenth” or their principle organisation the Niagara Movement which bankrupted itself after failure to appeal to the black populous. In contrast the NAACP (which Du Bois is next connected to) while still neo-elitist takes a drastically different approach as an organisation drawing together much of the AA civil rights movement under one organisation, its by nature much more effective than any talented tenth could of ever been - as its able to galvionise the population, communicating on a genuine level and offering solutions to everyday challenges. however in the dissolution of Jim Crow 2 key cases are seen as landmark rulings the 1896 Plessy V Furgerson rulling (prior to du Bois involvement/talented tenth) and later it’s overruling case 1954 Brown V Board (letter to du Bois involvement/talented tenth)

In conclusion the suggestion the tallented tenth were paramount the the dissolution of Jim Crow is outright deceptive, particularly when the involvement of other individuals who practiced a policy of collective advancement not identity politics were in reality paramount to Jim crows abolition.
 

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*Every* conversation in the USA (at least on mass media) is controlled, to an extent, by white people. Nonetheless, I'm far less dismissive of the contributions of black people to the ongoing dialogue on race than you appear to be.

But it doesn't much matter if our perspectives differ. And if you have any more specific thoughts about your proposed "long term systemic changes to how we teach history and social science," feel free to share them.

As I said it’s not about dismissing the contributions of black persons but rather in a system controlled by white persons exposing their institutions historic mistruths in regards to black people at a rare time where society is
willing to listen is of the upmost importance. Racists are never going to be persuaded to not be racist by going “oh look a successful black person” infarct in their eyes this re-enforces the narritive that’s existed within republican dogwhistle politics since the days of Raegan. Rather educating children in a way which offers them the opportunity to challange their communities status quo upon key societal issues is the only way to make lasting and sustained progress. Particularly when considering up until 45-50 years ago (some less) a worrying amount of southern states taught history from textbooks recommended/lobbied for by the daughters of the confederacy organisation, its within this thought and by reflection upon recent events one may come to wonder the power such a false narritive can have on America in a broader sense.
 

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The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbon. And if you want to be foundational about it, History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides.


You’re ignoring historicism in favor of your interpretation of the literature. Authors, by virtue of being ignorant of what they don’t know, are naturally biased towards an interpretation. It isn’t manipulative, it’s human.

I refer particularly to books on the topic of American history (civil rights, slavery, civil war etc)

although I think that’s it’s still relevant to point out your best examples of objective history comes in the form of classics. An area of history not concerned by modern Polotics and thus clearly less effected by aforementioned academic bias when contrasted to a contemporary historical problem which plays out every day in the modern day political arena. The irony of referencing historicism in your argument while failing to implement it is at best laughable and at worst disingenuous.
 

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No that’s simply not true, Jim Crow ended far later - De-Facto through the actions of various civil rights groups (none closely related to Du Bois) I.e the SNCC student sit-ins, MIA/SCLC bus boycott and subsequent ride alongs. I’ll note that during all these actions Du Bois was living out his final years in Accra, Ghana.

While there’s a fleeting connection via the De-Jure approach in which you could argue Du Bois connection to the early NAACP somehow credits him for their later success. It certainly does not credit the “talented tenth” or their principle organisation the Niagara Movement which bankrupted itself after failure to appeal to the black populous. In contrast the NAACP (which Du Bois is next connected to) while still neo-elitist takes a drastically different approach as an organisation drawing together much of the AA civil rights movement under one organisation, its by nature much more effective than any talented tenth could of ever been - as its able to galvionise the population, communicating on a genuine level and offering solutions to everyday challenges. however in the dissolution of Jim Crow 2 key cases are seen as landmark rulings the 1896 Plessy V Furgerson rulling (prior to du Bois involvement/talented tenth) and later it’s overruling case 1954 Brown V Board (letter to du Bois involvement/talented tenth)

In conclusion the suggestion the tallented tenth were paramount the the dissolution of Jim Crow is outright deceptive, particularly when the involvement of other individuals who practiced a policy of collective advancement not identity politics were in reality paramount to Jim crows abolition.


It’s not any organization he may or may not have founded. He was an academic, a sociologist and philosopher. It was his idea of a group of Afro-Americans that would be industrious in the sense of establishing and directing capital investment in order to maintain a hegemonic role in founding and managing Negro institutions during Jim Crow that enabled the Civil rights movement (CRM) to have the social base to launch the attacks on segregation that they did. It was the Negro bankers and insurance companies that were in the pews of the elite Baptist churches that comprised the SCLC across the South from Atlanta to Baton Rouge and from the South Side of Chicago to the other elite areas in the urban centres that facilitated the organizations you mentioned in the first place. Where do you think social change comes from in the first case?

I don’t know exactly what you mean by collective advancement, maybe ‘collective uplift’? This was an idea associated with Negro politics at the time and was linked to the talented-tenth idea that involved an elite pursuing policies and positions, including but not limited to civil rights, that would steadily increase the socio-economic standing of Negroes in the country. Of course it wasn’t universally accepted and there was a strong strain of Marxist-Leninism amongst some elements of the Negro working class, particularly in the rural sharecropping areas of the deep south where there was a real attempt to organize the workforce there. Among the northern urban working class there was more direction and targeted strikes and planning; basically reformist action led by A. Philip Randolph and co. There even became a recurring debate on the ‘national question’ as regards the Negro working class in the south that was debated in the third International (Comintern) that involved whether the USSR and allied parties should encourage and support direct revolutionary praxis (ie armed struggle for self-determination) there.
No that’s simply not true, Jim Crow ended far later - De-Facto through the actions of various civil rights groups (none closely related to Du Bois) I.e the SNCC student sit-ins, MIA/SCLC bus boycott and subsequent ride alongs. I’ll note that during all these actions Du Bois was living out his final years in Accra, Ghana.

While there’s a fleeting connection via the De-Jure approach in which you could argue Du Bois connection to the early NAACP somehow credits him for their later success. It certainly does not credit the “talented tenth” or their principle organisation the Niagara Movement which bankrupted itself after failure to appeal to the black populous. In contrast the NAACP (which Du Bois is next connected to) while still neo-elitist takes a drastically different approach as an organisation drawing together much of the AA civil rights movement under one organisation, its by nature much more effective than any talented tenth could of ever been - as its able to galvionise the population, communicating on a genuine level and offering solutions to everyday challenges. however in the dissolution of Jim Crow 2 key cases are seen as landmark rulings the 1896 Plessy V Furgerson rulling (prior to du Bois involvement/talented tenth) and later it’s overruling case 1954 Brown V Board (letter to du Bois involvement/talented tenth)

In conclusion the suggestion the tallented tenth were paramount the the dissolution of Jim Crow is outright deceptive, particularly when the involvement of other individuals who practiced a policy of collective advancement not identity politics were in reality paramount to Jim crows abolition.
 
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sorry - who’s narrative hasn’t proven to be manipulative*
I refer particularly to books on the topic of American history (civil rights, slavery, civil war etc)

although I think that’s it’s still relevant to point out your best examples of objective history comes in the form of classics. An area of history not concerned by modern Polotics and thus clearly less effected by aforementioned academic bias when contrasted to a contemporary historical problem which plays out every day in the modern day political arena. The irony of referencing historicism in your argument while failing to implement it is at best laughable and at worst disingenuous.

It’s impossible to employ historicism without interpreting literature or a theory; so I have no idea what the fuck you’re thinking of. I specifically referred to an author’s context, which is the basis of historicism…

See, Thucydides is the first historian to offer a concrete political interpretation of events. His main contribution was the attribution of decisions, not to political theory or the will of the gods, but to human emotions. Athens and Sparta feared each other, and Pericles viewed the Peloponnesians as lacking an essential Greekness that left them untrustworthy.

Gibbon, likewise, is noteworthy because he rejected the Church’s theory of the Romans and, instead, viewed their decline in the context of interpersonal conflict and racial divisions.

The thrust of your argument is that interpreting history by a set of human factors, racism among them, is somehow politically motivated.

I point to classics specifically to show that this isn’t anything new. The only politics involved is your assumption that the racial conflict in the United States is something special in the history of the world. It’s not. Or that the interpretation of events through the lens of racial conflict is something new. It’s not either.

No source is objective. Gibbon had a disdain for the Byzantines and Thucydides was a contemporary historian of the war.

That it’s convenient for your argument to pretend that subjective interpretations of events can’t be trusted or true or useful is entirely the point: you’re going to be left with the nihilistic proposition that all history is useless.

So what is your point? You’re going on about academic bias without seeming to understand what it means or even what basic modes of analysis are.
 

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As I said it’s not about dismissing the contributions of black persons but rather in a system controlled by white persons exposing their institutions historic mistruths in regards to black people at a rare time where society is
willing to listen is of the upmost importance. Racists are never going to be persuaded to not be racist by going “oh look a successful black person” infarct in their eyes this re-enforces the narritive that’s existed within republican dogwhistle politics since the days of Raegan. Rather educating children in a way which offers them the opportunity to challange their communities status quo upon key societal issues is the only way to make lasting and sustained progress. Particularly when considering up until 45-50 years ago (some less) a worrying amount of southern states taught history from textbooks recommended/lobbied for by the daughters of the confederacy organisation, its within this thought and by reflection upon recent events one may come to wonder the power such a false narritive can have on America in a broader sense.

Educating children to challenge a racist status quo is indeed crucial for long-term progress. But as we're seeing in the current disputes over what can or can't be taught in schools, such a pedagogical shaping of the next generation can't happen without winning political battles in this one. For better or worse, the hope for a more enlightened tomorrow depends on the so-called "identity politics" of today.
 
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