How Women Are Expected To Be Unpaid Project Managers, And How To Stop It

Sagittarius84

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You should’ve asked

Divvying the actions is one thing, but how to we make the mental work load fair?
Start by establishing a common baseline of desire for said work to be done, before cohabitation. If he is ok with the dishes not being washed, or food to be ordered instead of prepared, she doesnt get to accuse him of shirking the mental load because she is proactive in doing a certain thing the way she wants it done...The only way one could claim an overbearing mental load is if the noninvolved party has an expectation that the other party will handle whatever task alone and complains if it isnt completed as expected..

Say, if a man was especially diligent about the service intervals of his vehicle, meets a woman he likes, and after a while moves in with her or proposes marriage...if he doesn't proactively establish an expectation of her contribution to ensuring the car's maintenance prior to cohabitating, he doesnt get to do it for yrs on his own for both vehicles then turn around and claim she's not helping to shoulderi a mental load.

How its made fair is not compromising on the expectation of it before coupling with someone, and therein lies the real root of the problem.
 

ItsAll4Kim

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Great article. Sorry, this is long...

What's interesting is that men die sooner, and the prevailing opinion is that stress is often the killer. So do men fail to deal with stress as well as women, or do men actually have more stress? Mental load is stress. Women are better at juggling multiple tasks, whereas men typically do one thing to completion then move to another. In the IT world it's "serial processing" versus "time-slicing".

Speaking for my relationships, I saw women *take* the mental load more than having the load imposed upon them. Wanting control of things (what to eat, where to go, who the friends are) seems more natural, perhaps. I had fights with my ex-wife over the finances....she literally demanded to handle bill paying. She insisted on controlling the food buying and meal planning. Why? "Her mother did those things". So what? So that's just how she wanted it.

This extended through all aspects of our entire 20+ years of marriage. If I did something that she usually did, it was invariably wrong. She literally sought a defect...you could see her doing this. Needless to say, eventually you give in/up. The true insanity of it was that I was essentially a single dad from Monday thru Friday. She traveled for work. So I would do everything (with two daughters) all week, then she'd be home and try to do everything all weekend and act as if she had to make up for being gone.

No matter how complete all chores were....clean, organized house, laundry completely done, fridge and pantry stocked, bills paid, homework done,....and btw I worked a high-stress professional full-time job too...nothing was ever enough. Some flaw would be found and exploited, and she would find things to add to the workload. If I tried to carve out downtime for her, she found a way to not accept it. "I have to..." invariably was the response. If I already did that, she'd find... or dream up...something else.

My present wife likes to be busy. I can't get her to just chill either. Even at our nudist getaway...a cabin I built, at a campground with pools and games and plenty of time to get away from literally everything....she volunteers for events, hosting parties, doing jobs for the campground. Constantly.

But she will let me do things, and not pick at them. We trade off on chores. If I'm not working (I'm self employed) I clean, cook, shop, do laundry, etc. and when I'm working I do as much of that as possible while home, and we share what can't be done by one of us. She pays her bills, I pay mine...our money is separate and we divide the financial burden based on our relative ability to pay.

But perhaps most relevant to this thread is that she will ask if she needs me to do something. But I don't wait to be asked...if I'm sitting and she's working, I ask what I can do, and she knows I mean it and she says what's going on. We communicate and cooperate. She does the same with me...if I'm doing something she asks to help and I let her, or I ask and she helps. No bitching from either of us.

Every day she leaves hair in the shower, tissues on the nightstand, coffee grinds in the filter, and lunch prep mess in the sink. Every day I clean all of it up. So what? I know there are things she does for me, like doing the dishes even though she cooked that night, because I'm exhausted or not feeling well. She's carried me through getting my business going and when work is slow. She's dealt with my health issues. We try to be a team.

I've gotten snarky comments from guys who see me....the big contractor dude...washing dishes and folding 'wares and any other stuff, and I don't give a rat's ass. Someday one of us will be alone. Until then, I want to be a participant in my relationship, home, and world. We both have jobs. We both have a home to keep.

We are far from perfect, hell, we're both part Italian and fight like cornered dogs when something gets to be too much.

But she always kisses me goodnight.
 

Sagittarius84

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Speaking for my relationships, I saw women *take* the mental load more than having the load imposed upon them. Wanting control of things (what to eat, where to go, who the friends are) seems more natural, perhaps.
I think I could've condensed my entire post to this sentiment.
 

LaFemme

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But she will let me do things, and not pick at them. We trade off on chores. If I'm not working (I'm self employed) I clean, cook, shop, do laundry, etc. and when I'm working I do as much of that as possible while home, and we share what can't be done by one of us. She pays her bills, I pay mine...our money is separate and we divide the financial burden based on our relative ability to pay.
I think what you said here is key. Sometimes men and women have different ideas of what a completed task looks like. If he doesn’t do it to her standard, she picks at him, or complains. The thing that resonated with is that your wife lets you do tasks, but will not pick at them.

My standard of cleaning is very different than my boy’s. If I ask him to clean the kitchen, he loads the dishwasher, leaves the pots in the dish rack, and wipes the counters. To me, cleaning the kitchen means seeing the dishes and pots put away, spot wiping the walls, the fridge, the cabinet doors, wiping down appliances, scrubbing the sink, general straightening, washing the floors. He’s 26. Why can’t he see what that means, even after I explained it to him? Anyway, I decided not to pick. If I want it done to my standard, I’ll go in and do it myself. He does other things. It’s never to my standard, but if I don’t like it, I can do it myself. I’d rather share the workload than stress over things he leaves undone.
 

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Anyway, I decided not to pick. If I want it done to my standard, I’ll go in and do it myself. He does other things. It’s never to my standard, but if I don’t like it, I can do it myself. I’d rather share the workload than stress over things he leaves undone.
So with this, wouldn't that make many percieved imbalances in mental workload self imposed?
 

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So with this, wouldn't that make many percieved imbalances in mental workload self imposed?
For me, yes. I don’t know if it’s the way men and women’s brains are wired differently, but women are generally better at the multitasking brain, while men tend to be better at single focus. There’s been research on this. Neither is a superior way of being wired, they are just different. Variances occur, of course.

Anyway, I cannot control the way my boy is wired. When he washes the dishes, he washes the dishes. He focuses on what he thinks is important - dishes, counters, done. He doesn’t even see the spots on the cabinet, or think about the toaster crumb tray. I see all those tasks as being equal, and focus on all of them; he focuses on what he thinks is important and does that.

I have a choice. I can either choose to be stressed about it, or not. I think I’m still carrying the mental load, but I choose relax my standards on some issues and not pick at him. I refuse to worry about it. Life is too short.

With a partner, I’m the same. I’m clear about what I’m asking. As long as it gets done in some fashion, I refuse to stress. I can fine tune things after if it bothers me that much. I have to take responsibility for my own feelings about division of labour.
 
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ItsAll4Kim

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For me, yes. I don’t know if it’s the way men and women’s brains are wired differently, but women are generally better at the multitasking brain, while men tend to be better at single focus. There’s been research on this. Neither is a superior way of being wired, they are just different. Variances occur, of course.

Anyway, I cannot control the way my boy is wired. When he washes the dishes, he washes the dishes. He focuses on what he thinks is important - dishes, counters, done. He doesn’t even see the spots on the cabinet, or think about the toaster crumb tray. I see all those tasks as being equal, and focus on all of them; he focuses on what he thinks is important and does that.

I have a choice. I can either choose to be stressed about it, or not. I think I’m still carrying the mental load, but I choose relax my standards on some issues and not pick at him. I refuse to worry about it. Life is too short.

With a partner, I’m the same. I’m clear about what I’m asking. As long as it gets done in some fashion, I refuse to stress. I can fine tune things after if it bothers me that much. I have to take responsibility for my own feelings about division of labour.
And in my house, I'm Mr. Detail. And I tend to clean as I go. If I see something, I try very hard to tend to it right away. Because I know I may forget. My wife prefers to wait and then clean the entire house as if she's Winston Wolf cleaning a crime scene.

But the key is that neither of us criticize the other's reason or method or result. In the end it's still just a building, and it'll be cleaned again, and get dirty again.
 

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What struck me was the aspect where a partner was willing to do a task, but only if asked.
The assumption, that like a child in the home, a partner waits to be asked, rather than do what needs doing (thank you, Skinny Hippie for doing that and modeling cooperative behavior to "our" son), means they are inadvertently requiring the other partner to manage the home.
 

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I don't buy this "you can't hold another to your expectations to any given task or you have to be willing to do it yourself" line of thinking and saying women are bringing the stress onto their own plate.

I guarantee you everyone in a household has grown to expect a certain level of cleanliness or organization. Consciously or not, they are happy with the state of the home and they are equally happy to not put in their fair share of the work required.

In most instances women are expected to take on the brunt of running and maintaining a household. Even if she also works a fulltime job outside of the home.

How many times have you heard men say "I do a shit job so she won't ask me to do it again"? But those same assholes like walls without spots and clean floors. It's a shitty thing to do to a partner/house mate. Rather than women taking on stress, some men are shirking responsibility and accountability. Permissive infantilization is a very real and toxic mindset.

The boy likes a clean house. I like a clean house. If I am helping out a person I love the task is completed to their standards or better. Why? Because I am doing something for them. Why half-ass it? That's the same as saying you do not value their effort or time when they perform to a higher level.

feminist-memes-111-5c177ea75d7b5__700.jpg
 

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Being married to a man, I can't really say anything about my own relationship. We have issues, but we make the household work. I have a friend who has been married to her husband for 19 years. He is in his 40's, but is very much a 1950's man. Cleaning is a woman's job and he simply won't do it. Getting him to take the trash out each week is a chore for her. Now that my friend is in her mid 40's, she's starting to have health problems. She's got issues with her back, her hands, and her eyes. There are times when she's physically unable to take the trash out. It's only then that he will do it for her, but she has to nag him about it. He gladly paid for her education, but never wanted her to work out of the house. He wants dinner ready when he gets home from work. He expects the house to be kept clean but doesn't contribute to doing any of it. If she has to go out of town for something, he asks her to make a huge meatloaf ahead of time and he lives off of that for a week until she gets back. He can manage to work the microwave to heat it up. He's also very conservative politically and with his religion. Somehow I've managed to win him over and he no longer thinks that the evil homosexuals are going to hell. In his defense, his parents are crazy, and his childhood was full of toxic people. He has also been a good provider for her and stepped in to be a parent for her daughter when her biological father couldn't be bothered. I tell her to pick her battles and remind him that at some point he's either going to have to do at least the minimum or hire a maid.
 
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My example might be somewhat unorthodox, depending on your views.

My relationship with my wife is mostly female-led (feeeeeemales!) But with some differences. She works a 9 to 5 job while I work second shift. So while I'm home, I handle laundry, most cleaning, yard work and some other tasks, if she requests something. When she comes home, she cooks something, then refrigerates it so that her and I can pack our lunches with it during the work week. On the weekends, we're together so I do the cooking and she gets a break from it. She is the goddess of my life, so if I had it my way, she'd never have to do anything. At any given time on weekends we might be gaming together on the Switch or PS4 though.

Though I am a firm believer that a couple should share responsibilities; my routine is my own choice.
 

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I don't buy this "you can't hold another to your expectations to any given task or you have to be willing to do it yourself" line of thinking and saying women are bringing the stress onto their own plate.

I guarantee you everyone in a household has grown to expect a certain level of cleanliness or organization. Consciously or not, they are happy with the state of the home and they are equally happy to not put in their fair share of the work required.

In most instances women are expected to take on the brunt of running and maintaining a household. Even if she also works a fulltime job outside of the home.

How many times have you heard men say "I do a shit job so she won't ask me to do it again"? But those same assholes like walls without spots and clean floors. It's a shitty thing to do to a partner/house mate. Rather than women taking on stress, some men are shirking responsibility and accountability. Permissive infantilization is a very real and toxic mindset.

The boy likes a clean house. I like a clean house. If I am helping out a person I love the task is completed to their standards or better. Why? Because I am doing something for them. Why half-ass it? That's the same as saying you do not value their effort or time when they perform to a higher level.

feminist-memes-111-5c177ea75d7b5__700.jpg
I hear you, but what are the options when someone you love just won’t do things to your standard? How do you make another person raise their standards? Asking doesn’t work, fighting doesn’t work, notes, schedules, teaching doesn’t work, so the only thing I have control over is my behaviour and thoughts. I can do it myself or not. I can stress about it or not.

Now I do have this young couple living with me, so it’s not a partnership, but I’ve never been successful in making the man in my relationship be able to see what needs to be done. I always have to ask. And I don’t know why asking is necessary. It used to stress me out, but I just choose not to let it bother me. Relax my standards, do it myself, or throw them out. I just don’t know how to change another person.
 

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My example might be somewhat unorthodox, depending on your views.

My relationship with my wife is mostly female-led (feeeeeemales!) But with some differences. She works a 9 to 5 job while I work second shift. So while I'm home, I handle laundry, most cleaning, yard work and some other tasks, if she requests something. When she comes home, she cooks something, then refrigerates it so that her and I can pack our lunches with it during the work week. On the weekends, we're together so I do the cooking and she gets a break from it. She is the goddess of my life, so if I had it my way, she'd never have to do anything. At any given time on weekends we might be gaming together on the Switch or PS4 though.

Though I am a firm believer that a couple should share responsibilities; my routine is my own choice.
Opposite work schedules suck.

HOH, woman led, is different than the old typical (mixed) partnership. the leader takes on the manager role by choice.

funny, Todd, I’d never pegged you (hehehe)as a Feringi.
 
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Start by establishing a common baseline of desire for said work to be done, before cohabitation. If he is ok with the dishes not being washed, or food to be ordered instead of prepared, she doesnt get to accuse him of shirking the mental load because she is proactive in doing a certain thing the way she wants it done...The only way one could claim an overbearing mental load is if the noninvolved party has an expectation that the other party will handle whatever task alone and complains if it isnt completed as expected..

Say, if a man was especially diligent about the service intervals of his vehicle, meets a woman he likes, and after a while moves in with her or proposes marriage...if he doesn't proactively establish an expectation of her contribution to ensuring the car's maintenance prior to cohabitating, he doesnt get to do it for yrs on his own for both vehicles then turn around and claim she's not helping to shoulderi a mental load.

How its made fair is not compromising on the expectation of it before coupling with someone, and therein lies the real root of the problem.
Your comparison of stereotypical mens work and women's work is apples and oranges. Car maintenance is done every ~5k miles, while dinner is a nightly task. Some things might be roughly equivalent, say laundry and lawn care, but many of the things that are "women's work" are continuous.

I DO agree with your suggestion of deciding before getting together, though.
 
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My ex was one of those types of men who expected me to do everything and wouldn’t do things properly so that I didn’t ask him to do that task again. He would complain or put up a fight when I asked him to do things. Even if I’d ask him to get me a drink or water that was a big deal... yet I’d often just ask him out of the blue and would get it for him. Often he would pour himself a drink and not even ask if I wanted one. We didn’t live together, so these issues still exist when you don’t cohabitate. We mostly hung out at my place because there were cats at his place and I’m very allergic.

I honestly never want to be with another man who expects me to act like their mother and wait on them hand and foot. It’s not a woman’s job to do that, yet my experience is that many men think it is.
 

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I don't buy this "you can't hold another to your expectations to any given task or you have to be willing to do it yourself" line of thinking and saying women are bringing the stress onto their own plate.

I guarantee you everyone in a household has grown to expect a certain level of cleanliness or organization. Consciously or not, they are happy with the state of the home and they are equally happy to not put in their fair share of the work required.

In most instances women are expected to take on the brunt of running and maintaining a household. Even if she also works a fulltime job outside of the home.

How many times have you heard men say "I do a shit job so she won't ask me to do it again"? But those same assholes like walls without spots and clean floors. It's a shitty thing to do to a partner/house mate. Rather than women taking on stress, some men are shirking responsibility and accountability. Permissive infantilization is a very real and toxic mindset.

The boy likes a clean house. I like a clean house. If I am helping out a person I love the task is completed to their standards or better. Why? Because I am doing something for them. Why half-ass it? That's the same as saying you do not value their effort or time when they perform to a higher level.

feminist-memes-111-5c177ea75d7b5__700.jpg
Assuming you clearly set your expectations(you can't expect anyone else to have your expectations in the latitude and effort expended towards housekeeping) about who would be doing what prior to cohabitation, Im 100% on board with you. But it rarely ever is. I assume you saw your mans dwelling before you cohabitated with him, right? Im going to assume you weren't trying to take on a pet project and at least was satisfied with his quality of living then, so why exactly does he need to up what you previously established as acceptable before you guys moved in together? Perhaps the minimalistic nature common to clean single men's dwellings makes a bit more sense if these men go into relationships with the same expectation to be upheld.
If we're going to align this to the trope, let's take a woman, whom as a result of society's unfair expectations or just her personal preference has a household that requires lots of repetition and effort to maintain and a man whom in an effort to .maintain the same desired level of cleanliness, opts for a minimalistic and/or utilitarian household that requires less effort and repetition to clean and maintain? Why is the assumption the man (or "messy" individual) should up his efforts and non requested repetition to clean their shared domicile to her standards, instead of the onus being upon the woman(or "clean" individual) to perhaps minimize upon certain household comforts or lifestyle choices to lessen the effort and repetition needed to get the same amoint of cleaning accomplished?
My wife used to make fun of me because anytime I lived alone from the college dorm on, Ive had very little by way of dishes, silverware, or daily trash...I kept just enough dishes to use for me and a couple visitors, I used the same plate/bowl, or silverware for the entire day, no paper plates or the like...Never had a sink full of dishes for someone to get mad over someone else not pulling their mental load. Never produced enough trash for it to back up and need to be taken out with any regularity. I didn't smoke so no constant need to clean walls and windows, so I could literally clean my entire place with a vacuum, wet swiffers, bleach, and degreaser in all of 1/2 hr every 2 weeks or so.

As a TL;DR to the above...i totally get there are some real manbabies out there, not interested in pulling their household weight, and allowing that attitude to spill over into other aspects of their interactions with women..but if you let your loin and heart throbbing, or comfort based capitulation override the standard you expect by hoping to change them later, that's on you only.
But if this load inequity exists as a function of your own comforts and preferences forcing him to have to multiply his efforts to get the same result he was getting previously with divided effort..then I think it then becomes a question of whom is entitled to cater to whom and why.