How would people OUTSIDE the US vote ?

[LuckyLuke]

Originally posted by ORCABOMBER@Oct 28 2004, 07:37 AM
Personally, I wouldn't trust either, I dislike the way that foreigners (essentially) are being asked who they'd like, I mean, could you see India or Germany doing the same thing?

If one is better than the other in NATIONAL policy, then fine. As for international policy, I'll believe it when I see it.

[post=261555]Quoted post[/post]​

I'm inclined to agree. US foreign policy doesn't seem to vary much according to Presidential Administrations. Its Pax Americana all the way, with that 'forward' policy that JFK announced still forming the core of US foreign policy.

 

[KinkGuy]

Originally posted by ORCABOMBER@Oct 28 2004, 01:37 AM
Personally, I wouldn't trust either, I dislike the way that foreigners (essentially) are being asked who they'd like, I mean, could you see India or Germany doing the same thing?

If one is better than the other in NATIONAL policy, then fine. As for international policy, I'll believe it when I see it.

[post=261555]Quoted post[/post]​

Except, the U.S. has a history of influencing and exerting control over numerous foreign governments. Monetary influence (or punishment) often gets things to go "our way." In the very global and modern world we live in, everything we/they do, has an effect. Shutting ourselves off from the rest of the world and refusing to consider the ramifications of our world wide influence and actions, will only harm America. And if "they" don't play along? Annihilate the fuckers.

 

[ponybilt]

And it's not just the covert influence the US applies in overturning goernments, installing puppets, and supporting them -- it's the fact that as the only superpower left that affects virtually every other country around the world. Why shouldn't there be an interest in what other country's citizens think?

Originally posted by KinkGuy+Oct 28 2004, 07:17 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KinkGuy &#064; Oct 28 2004, 07:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-ORCABOMBER@Oct 28 2004, 01:37 AM
Personally, I wouldn&#39;t trust either, I dislike the way that foreigners (essentially) are being asked who they&#39;d like, I mean, could you see India or Germany doing the same thing?

If one is better than the other in NATIONAL policy, then fine. As for international policy, I&#39;ll believe it when I see it.

[post=261555]Quoted post[/post]​

Except, the U.S. has a history of influencing and exerting control over numerous foreign governments. Monetary influence (or punishment) often gets things to go "our way." In the very global and modern world we live in, everything we/they do, has an effect. Shutting ourselves off from the rest of the world and refusing to consider the ramifications of our world wide influence and actions, will only harm America. And if "they" don&#39;t play along? Annihilate the fuckers.

[post=261600]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

 

[B_RoysToy]

And it&#39;s not just the covert influence the US applies in overturning goernments, installing puppets, and supporting them -- it&#39;s the fact that as the only superpower left that affects virtually every other country around the world. Why shouldn&#39;t there be an interest in what other country&#39;s citizens think?

Of course, ponybilt. There are those who have a difficult time recognizing that we have fast become a global world and isolationism is no long feasible or safe. This is the way it should be, since we are all humans put here to care for others, no matter what differences we possess.

 

[KinkGuy]

Well, RoysToy, tell that to the shrub. he doesn&#39;t quite seem to "get it."

 

[B_RoysToy]

Originally posted by KinkGuy@Oct 31 2004, 10:30 PM
Well, RoysToy, tell that to the shrub. he doesn&#39;t quite seem to "get it."

[post=261895]Quoted post[/post]​

There are so many things I would love having the opportunity to tell the shrub, KinkGuy. My pleasure would be to use duct tape on his mouth and force him to sit while I ranted and raved for eons to the below average intelligent guy.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Originally posted by KinkGuy+Oct 28 2004, 07:17 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KinkGuy &#064; Oct 28 2004, 07:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Except, the U.S. has a history of influencing and exerting control over numerous foreign governments. Monetary influence (or punishment) often gets things to go "our way." In the very global and modern world we live in, everything we/they do, has an effect. Shutting ourselves off from the rest of the world and refusing to consider the ramifications of our world wide influence and actions, will only harm America. And if "they" don&#39;t play along? Annihilate the fuckers.

[post=261600]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

Who&#39;s "they"? I&#39;m a "they" in that I&#39;m an apathist. I don&#39;t feel like being arseraped by the FBI for my beliefs.

Originally posted by LuckyLuke@Oct 28 2004, 03:08 PM
I&#39;m inclined to agree. US foreign policy doesn&#39;t seem to vary much according to Presidential Administrations. Its Pax Americana all the way, with that &#39;forward&#39; policy that JFK announced still forming the core of US foreign policy.

[post=261577]Quoted post[/post]​

I find that disecting their arguments is pretty easy. I suppose all that practice from my science lectures comes in handy. Bah, give me "Snail genetic linearges" any day.

<!--QuoteBegin-ponybilt@Oct 29 2004, 06:46 AM
And it&#39;s not just the covert influence the US applies in overturning goernments, installing puppets, and supporting them -- it&#39;s the fact that as the only superpower left that affects virtually every other country around the world. Why shouldn&#39;t there be an interest in what other country&#39;s citizens think?
[/quote]Erm, in case they get the shit bombed out of them, or are declared "the axis of evil?"&#153; It&#39;s the same two groups going back and forth over and other. Not a real revolutionary power, as far as I&#39;m concerned, the biggest difference will be which country we invade next.

 

[ponybilt]

Yeah, Orca, if I understand your comment correctly, that&#39;s true but it&#39;s the extreme end of the spectrum. I also said "... it&#39;s not only the covert influence..."

The overt influence that the US applies to nearly every other country -- particularly those with resources we think we need -- comes in the forms of trade agreements, or disagreements, sanctions, favoritism, etc.

Think of Isreal and the arms, munitions, helipcopters, etc.
China, trade agreements that favor US business, regardless if they&#39;re a communist country.
India, trade agreements that favvor US businesses.
Saudi Arabia and the US oil industry.
Cuba, and the sanctions that only hurt the general poulation.

Ad infinitum.

The power and influence that the US applies around the world isn&#39;t for evil alone, but neither is it entirely altruistic. How much difference is there between children sewing clothing or picking tomatoes for pennies a week for US companies and the people starving in mid-Africa because we ignore it? How much difference is there between the 100,000 civilians dead in Iraq because of the war and the tens of thousands of babies who died when the US sold baby formula to third-world countries?

Corporate greed drives politics, and while there may be few differences in that regard betweent he parties, there&#39;s a clear difference in the humanity of each.

And it&#39;s not just the covert influence the US applies in overturning goernments, installing puppets, and supporting them -- it&#39;s the fact that as the only superpower left that affects virtually every other country around the world. Why shouldn&#39;t there be an interest in what other country&#39;s citizens think?

Erm, in case they get the shit bombed out of them, or are declared "the axis of evil?"&#153; It&#39;s the same two groups going back and forth over and other. Not a real revolutionary power, as far as I&#39;m concerned, the biggest difference will be which country we invade next.

[post=261958]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]

 

[tracksuitboy]

If Daffy Duck was the only "person" standing against Bush - I&#39;d vote for him. Daffy is more honourable.

 

[KinkGuy]

I took my elderly mother to vote Saturday. This 76 year old woman has turned into a screaming liberal&#33; Her words, delivered in a voice you could hear all the way across the room? "I would vote for Satan if he were running against george bush." This little statement delivered at the exact moment she pushed the "straight party" button on the touch screen. I was both proud and embarrassed.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Well, at least you know what you&#39;re in for if you did vote "the evil one".


------
Anyhooo.. Pony, I&#39;m not "Anti-American" as a lot of Europeans would seem to classified as. But I feel that politics and "teh ebil" go hand in hand. Good deeds are for charities.

 

[Ralexx]

Kerry. Of course.

Kerry, Kerry, Kerry.
Carry... Carry on... carry over... Cary Grant...

 

[LuckyLuke]

Looks like the offical Gallup poll of Canadians on the US Election last week - where Bush managed 19% support.

 

[Ralexx]

At this moment : November the 3rd, 0928 EEST

Bush - 236
Kerry - 220

 

[lacsap1]

Originally posted by Ralexx@Nov 3 2004, 07:29 AM
At this moment : November the 3rd, 0928 EEST

Bush - 236
Kerry - 220

[post=262183]Quoted post[/post]​

Yep, It&#39;s a horror and a joke for the democracy in the whole world &#33;
The baddest track record since Hoover and still re-elected ?

I hope the american public will realise the consequences;

- The national debt - an incredible &#036;455 billion this year and &#036;475 billion next year -- will certainly be passed on to other generations and still wants to cutting taxes at the same time?

- Bush jr continues not to be concerned with the budget deficit. Record deficits and the highest unemployment figures in a decade will certainly impact future congresses, presidents and generations.

- As per the Census Bureau: The number of Americans living in poverty will increased heavy.

- Significant cuts in the big entitlement programs (Social Security and Medicare) or deep cuts in everything else the government does will be needed, even with substantial increases in taxes.

- Damage and further isolation of foreign policy, relations and international trade policy. Like how the steel story looks from Europe: the administration imposed an illegal tariff for domestic political reasons, then changed its mind when threatened with retaliatory tariffs focused on likely swing states. So the U.S. has squandered its credibility: it is now seen as a nation that honors promises only when it&#39;s politically convenient.

- In Europe, Bush jr remained a tough sell. Bush&#39;s go-it-alone stance on many issues — from the Kyoto Treaty on global warming to the war in Iraq — as well as his religious outlook, his Texas background and single-minded approach, made him a target for many.

- A world further restructured to be "consistent with military necessity" but an administration even less bound by anything, the Third Geneva Convention included. If the Republicans again control the presidency, both houses of Congress, and increasingly (remember those sure-to-arrive Supreme Court retirements) the courts, as part of a dreamed-of process of turning the world into the Bush version of a militarized total institution, beyond the law and controlled from Washington.

- The US will become even more bitterly polarized, four more years of looting, four more years of tax cuts for the rich and major comapnies, four more years of right-wing whacko judges, four more years of ‘to oppose the GOP is to oppose America, and God’.

-After the 4 more years of Bush jr those culturally conservative Midwesterners realize that their life savings hell, the entire social structure they were counting on, was traded away for a handful of not-so-magic beans by their man, maybe they wouldn’t be such arrogant and crying for a new elections.

- So looks like your looking at four more years of Bush, the end of abortion and other human rights, possibly the end of elections forever, lots more wars, continued progression of the police state at home, increasing economic impoverishment for most people, a drive for military domination of the world.

- One positive point, Europe will be more united and stronger together against the US/Bush jr. Oil will be soon to expensive in the US, Opec will change payment currency from US dollars into Euro&#39;s and Euro will increase heavily against the US doller. Europe will work even harder on different BI-fuel cars like LPG other gas kinds what is already very commen in the EU and less expensive.

Perhaps Bush jr re-election will learn those condervative midwesterners after 4 more years for Bush jr and it will be good for the democrat party in next elections.

Every society get what they deserve, good luck Amercian public with your Mr Bush jr.

 

[KinkGuy]

lacsap1,
Thank you. I was in Amsterdam earlier this year. Very enlightening how well educated you and the EU is about america. OBVIOUSLY, better than most who voted(?) here yesterday. I cannot begin to imagine what a laughing stock we are to the rest of the world today. I am sad, frightened and disheartened at the moment. It&#39;s going to be a very long and devastating 4 years. I only pray, we can recover before we bring the rest of the world down, along with ourselves. Only 51% of eligible voters made their voices heard yesterday, which was the largest turn out in history. Very sad. Speaking for myself, I apologize to you and the rest of the world. I probably won&#39;t be seeing any of you soon. I doubt it will be safe or wise for americans to travel abroad and I am going to miss the opportunity to visit the rest of the world.

The lower case "a" in america is deliberate.

Let the flaming begin. I&#39;m a big boy, I can take it.

 

[lacsap1]

Originally posted by KinkGuy@Nov 3 2004, 08:32 PM

Only 51% of eligible voters made their voices heard yesterday, which was the largest turn out in history. Very sad.

[post=262245]Quoted post[/post]​

Large turn out ?

Is there a special reason why the rest (49%) didn&#39;t had time to vote ?
Perhaps not enough cars to bring all ties people to the voting station ?

Very strange this greatest democracy of the world...

 

[madame_zora]

And so now we must concede that our greatness is nothing more than a sad farce. We don&#39;t care enough as a whole nation to protect it from tyranny. 51%, I truly feel ashamed.

 

[BobLeeSwagger]

Exaggerate much?

While I agree that the deficit situation probably will only get worse, I don&#39;t see how Bush&#39;s foreign policy can get any worse than it is right now. He has nowhere to go but up. Anti-Americanism was around a long, long time before Bush came along, and it will be around after he&#39;s gone.

The United States is not going to become some kind of military dictatorship. That&#39;s just crazy, mainly because it doesn&#39;t need to be for Bush and his friends to have power and wealth. Everybody needs to calm down and take a deep breath. I know it&#39;s hard for Europeans and many blue-staters to understand, but Bush voters just have a different mindset than you. In a lot of ways, I think they&#39;re wrong, but they&#39;re real people with valid views. Disrespecting their opinions would make us far worse than a sore loser. It makes you a bad citizen.

The Supreme Court doomsday predictions are mostly overblown rhetoric to fire up the bases of both parties. If Rehnquist dies tomorrow, his replacement will be another conservative. (If John Paul Stevens dies, then THAT would be a shift.) Besides, the Democrats are in a position to delay a justice&#39;s confirmation indefinitely, making it more likely that a fairly moderate judge would be approved. (This would also have been true if Kerry had won.) And then there&#39;s the "don&#39;t know what a justice will do until he gets on the Court" factor. Bush Sr. put David Souter on the Court thinking that he would vote against abortion rights. Surprise&#33;

Abortion is not going to be banned. Roe v. Wade established a FEDERAL right to abortion. Even if the Supreme Court were to somehow overturn it, numerous states have it enshrined in their state laws and abortion would stay legal in most of the country. California has one of the oldest abortion rights statutes in the country, signed into law by Ronald Reagan, believe it or not.

As for your "positive point," I think your optimism about impending EU dominance is highly misplaced. The EU&#39;s population is stagnating and will soon decline. Economic growth there has been mediocre. It has little military presence with which to project influence in times of crisis, even when it wants to. Remember the civil wars in the former Yugoslavia? Without Clinton&#39;s intervention, they&#39;d still be going on because Europe sat on its thumbs and watched. And that was right in their own backyard. I&#39;m not saying that the EU won&#39;t be powerful and influential, but it&#39;s not in a position to rival the United States at a global level before Bush leaves office.

The United States has had crappy presidents before. (Carter, Ford, Harding, Taft, to name a few just in the last century.) The country slogged on through it and the world didn&#39;t come to an end. These things tend to be cyclical. At some point, the GOP will overreach and get their comeuppance. It just seems a long way away right now.

I do agree with you wholeheartedly about one thing: we get the leaders we deserve.

 

[KinkGuy]

aloof,
But there is a difference between "crappy" and destructive. All bow to the mighty Saudi oil barrel. And, have you heard anything about the German, British and Chinese economies of late? We are fucked. Just who do you thing gw is borrowing the trillions of dollars we are in debt for, from? The U.S. is now the single largest debtor nation on the planet. Your grand kids grand kids won&#39;t be able to pay this off.