I am evidence

[LaFemme]

YOU have a responsibility to report these things when they happen. Not a decade later when you feel "empowered" or think you can turn a buck.

You don’t understand rape. Not even a little bit. Not the shame, or guilt, or the way one wants to pretend it didn’t happen. It can take years to even tell one person. One may never report it.

And turning a buck?! Omg. From who?

Yeah, well. Don’t know why I bothered with a response. You would never understand.

 

[TexanStar]

@swingfun is just a troll who hates anyone w/ a vagina. He's one of the longest running members of my ignore list. He's likely just crabby cuz he's one of the perps featured in the movie.

 

[LaFemme]

@swingfun is just a troll who hates anyone w/ a vagina. He's one of the longest running members of my ignore list. He's likely just crabby cuz he's one of the perps featured in the movie.

Good to know. He’s on mine now, too. Attitudes like that are why women struggle with reporting. Which probably make guys like him happy.

 

[TexanStar]

Good to know. He’s on mine now, too. Attitudes like that are why women struggle with reporting. Which probably make guys like him happy.

Yeah, he's a walking talking example of the lax moderation around here.

 

[englad]

YOU have a responsibility to report these things when they happen. Not a decade later when you feel "empowered" or think you can turn a buck.

Someone clearly doesn't understand how shock and trauma affect other human beings. For some people, it can take decades or even a lifetime to open up.

It takes a lot of guts and courage to attempt to report this, but you'd be left wondering what's the point as the burden of proof is so high that its unlikely to be reached. The system is not very victim centric in this regards. I'm amazed that any women does, to be honest...

This is a mainly LGBT male online space, what that means in the context of sexual violence is (given the hefty proportion of gay/bi men that have been through that, though it is a massive elephant in the room that doesn't get discussed that often), the majority of the sexual assault survivors on here will be male. They might make up the minority of sexual assault survivors overall, but not on this website due to the demographic balance and how unfortunately common a traumatic experience this is for LGBT men. I don't appreciate straight people ignoring the site's demographic make up on this one at all.

 

[englad]

@g0nz0 the main reason why I pulled up your comment was based on victims not reporting it. Now this is the vast majority of all sexual assault cases, but in terms of the proportions of how many get reported. It's around 15% of all cases in England and Wales, but when you are specifically looking at male sexual assault victims that drops to 4%. I can imagine the situation would be similar in Ireland, though I don't have exact statistics for that.

 

[g0nz0]

@g0nz0 the main reason why I pulled up your comment was based on victims not reporting it. Now this is the vast majority of all sexual assault cases, but in terms of the proportions of how many get reported. It's around 15% of all cases in England and Wales, but when you are specifically looking at male sexual assault victims that drops to 4%. I can imagine the situation would be similar in Ireland, though I don't have exact statistics for that.

Yeah, very fair point mate, and one that just didn't occur to me. I apologise for any offence caused, certainly was unintentional. I think by far the vast majority of cases are women, but I shouldn't have ignored male abuse either.

 

[englad]

Yeah, very fair point mate, and one that just didn't occur to me. I apologise for any offence caused, certainly was unintentional. I think by far the vast majority of cases are women, but I shouldn't have ignored male abuse either.

I know, and I know it wasn't intentional. It's certainly true that the vast majority of victims are women (I think it varies between 80 and 90%), and I think it is therefore fair to talk more about female sexual assault victims. I focus more on the gender of the attacker, because the vast majority of sexual assaulters are men, and it's the perpetrators who need to stop, so that is why I tend to place my focus there.

It's only on the issue of reporting that strikes home and it sometimes feels like we are invisible, because such a tiny proportion of male sexual assault survivors do report the assualt (even with lots of high profile cases involving male sexual assault victims recently, like Kevin Spacey or Jimmy Saville) and there are less of us (though far from a statistically insignificant amount, think it was 20% of women in the UK and 4% of men). There are a number of reasons for that related to gender conditioning ("men can't fail to provide consent" or "men can't be victims" or even occasionally "it can't happen to men") and homophobia/extra sexuality misconceptions often play a large role. In my case personally the homophobic stereotype of all gay people being attracted to everyone of the same sex, which is probably why the attacker called me a "tease" afterwards, and all the straight people I knew only seemed to focus on my attacker's identity, due to my sex rather than his. In my best friend's (bisexual) case, he received homophobic taunts from his attacker afterwards and was asked questions like "did you enjoy it?"

My personal experience is there is a huge amount of solidarity between sexual assault survivors (both men and women) who have been through this. One person's pain doesn't negate the other, and we can relate on a level of dealing with the shock, trauma, senses of entitlement, a blatant disregard for your human dignity etc. Opening up to each other is really therapeutic. So I'm sorry that such a tiny proportion of sexual assault survivors report, but having been there I understand why. So I feel a huge amount of sympathy, compassion and solidarity to the vast majority of victims who are female.

 

[LaFemme]

Someone clearly doesn't understand how shock and trauma affect other human beings. For some people, it can take decades or even a lifetime to open up.



This is a mainly LGBT male online space, what that means in the context of sexual violence is (given the hefty proportion of gay/bi men that have been through that, though it is a massive elephant in the room that doesn't get discussed that often), the majority of the sexual assault survivors on here will be male. They might make up the minority of sexual assault survivors overall, but not on this website due to the demographic balance and how unfortunately common a traumatic experience this is for LGBT men. I don't appreciate straight people ignoring the site's demographic make up on this one at all.

To be fair, this really isn’t a LGBT male space. It certainly is dominated by males, but everyone has their own perception of the site. You experience it as a gay male - perhaps encountering more gay males; as a woman, I encounter more straight males and women. We all engage in a sexually based community but contribute but we feel is valuable. There are very few lesbians and trans people here. So saying this is a LGBT site? Not really accurate.

I also understand your need to present the male perspective on assault on males; however I feel you were a bit harsh on @g0nz0 . Sexual assault on males is a serious issue, but the documentary and discussions were about the female rape experience. This is the Women’s Issues forum and that discussion could be had in another area. I completely understand your passion to present your side, it’s just that it can sidetrack away from the female viewpoint. Perhaps another thread in Relationships? It could be an interesting discussion. There have been a couple of good threads posted there previously by men who have been assaulted. Their experiences have been very valuable and informative.

 

[englad]

To be fair, this really isn’t a LGBT male space. It certainly is dominated by males, but everyone has their own perception of the site. You experience it as a gay male - perhaps encountering more gay males; as a woman, I encounter more straight males and women. We all engage in a sexually based community but contribute but we feel is valuable. There are very few lesbians and trans people here. So saying this is a LGBT site? Not really accurate.

Ummmm, what? Didn't call it specifically an LGBT male space, said a very hefty proportion of it is. From what I've been able to see over the years, it would be a majority, and I'm not going purely off the messages I've received over the years. I'm going off perusing the majority of the forums for over a decade, and scanning down sexuality percentages, looking at the website as a whole, looking at the level of activity in each of the forums, being in the chat rooms, realising there's a hefty percentage of the website's audience turned up originally due to the longhand version of the site's name etc. Everyone comes here for different reasons, true, but I was going off on what I've seen as a whole. Plus in the past, you have referred to straight men with a penis fetish on the site as being "bisexual", frankly anything up to half of the ones on this site would qualify with the "bi" label based on that argument. This is what other gay and bisexual men see on the platform, hence why many view it as our site. Lesbians for the record are LGBT, but not LGBT males. Transgender people are rare true.

I also understand your need to present the male perspective on assault on males; however I feel you were a bit harsh on @g0nz0 . Sexual assault on males is a serious issue, but the documentary and discussions were about the female rape experience. This is the Women’s Issues forum and that discussion could be had in another area. I completely understand your passion to present your side, it’s just that it can sidetrack away from the female viewpoint. Perhaps another thread in Relationships? It could be an interesting discussion. There have been a couple of good threads posted there previously by men who have been assaulted. Their experiences have been very valuable and informative.

I understand that but if the topic of reporting rates on sexual assault is brought up, that is a sensitive issue, because it is significantly lower amongst male sexual assault victims. Particularly if that is done in conjunction with accidentally forgetting about the existence of male sexual assault victims, which sadly is another common theme. That specifically is why the user you've just tagged in was very compassionate and apologetic regarding forgetting that detail AND thanked me for bringing it up, plus he's European not North American, I was specifically speaking about the European situation, which is one we're both more familiar with. The documentary was also specifically speaking about low reporting levels, was it not? Plus threads do move from place to place, and cover a variety of topics. And I was still picking up a vibe of complete invisibility on the issue in a couple of the posts here, which I find rather perplexing given the number of high profile cases over the last few years. I don't view it as a one cancels out the other scenario, because there are a number of overlaps (notably the gender of the attackers in the vast majority of cases, the sense of entitlement, an inability to understand the value of consent, victim blaming etc). I don't consider this topic to be some sort of zero sum game. I'm disappointed that that would be the inferrence, and frankly that is the first time I've heard a survivor speak like that (certainly never heard that from female sexual assault survivors that I know offline, and I've never seen it invertedly done the other way round by male assualt survivors) . If anything I would have thought both topics acutally complement each other. I don't view a heftier weight of speaking about the female experience of sexual violence (because the vast majority of sexual violence survivors are women), somehow negates the male experience of sexual violence or can only be discussed in complete isolation. So my question is, why do you? By this level of argument on the documentary, you could suggest that only the female experience of rape in North America is worth discussing, and the situation on all other continents should not be discussed.

 

[TexanStar]

So my question is, why do you? By this level of argument on the documentary, you could suggest that only the female experience of rape in North America is worth discussing, and the situation on all other continents should not be discussed.

I can't speak for her, but since she did suggest that you start another thread about it and that it could be an interesting discussion, I don't think she would in turn argue that it's not worth discussing.

She was just trying to keep the thread that was created in the women's issues subforum on topic.

 

[LaFemme]

“This is a mainly LGBT male online space”. @englad

To put it succinctly, you turned this into a male issue. You didn’t even share your own story, but one about men in general. I’m not negating the male experience, just this is the one area of the site where women should be free to discuss their own experiences.

 

[LaFemme]

I can't speak for her, but since she did suggest that you start another thread about it and that it could be an interesting discussion, I don't think she would in turn argue that it's not worth discussing.

She was just trying to keep the thread that was created in the women's issues subforum on topic.

What he said.

 

[englad]

“This is a mainly LGBT male online space”. @englad

To put it succinctly, you turned this into a male issue. You didn’t even share your own story, but one about men in general. I’m not negating the male experience, just this is the one area of the site where women should be free to discuss their own experiences.

Mainly being a majority, which I clarified further in the post. I did also bring up details of my own experience earlier in the thread at several points. Yes I was not pleased to see the traditional blindness to the topic crop up.

AND YES I FUCKING DID TALK ABOUT MY OWN EXPERIENCE AND GENERALLY FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE FUCKING POSTS, TRY FUCKING READING THEM FOR A CHANGE:

"I think sometimes people get into the whole "well at least it wasn't a rape" as a coping strategy for other forms of sexual assault, and a self-defence mechanism. I did exactly the same on that one. But the irony is, based on many definitions of the word (and on the German legal definition, which is similar to the FBI's ), I was wrong on that one.

I know four survivors of this including myself. Not a single one did report it. I understand why you're upset you didn't, but the system is at fault. Not you

Someone clearly doesn't understand how shock and trauma affect other human beings. For some people, it can take decades or even a lifetime to open up."

THESE ONES I WAS ALSO TALKING ABOUT MY OWN CASE:

"Little cues on say sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies, compulsive lying, narcisstic traits, just general traits that up the "creep factor". There are sometimes grooming style questions you can pick up on from some potential abusers. "

"Make her clued up on topics like gender conditioning, make her clued up on the cultural influences on modern male sexuality. Tell her the signs to watch out for to pick up creeps, so she can cut them out of her life more easily"

THE ONLY POINT I BROUGHT UP MALE VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT GENERALLY WAS AFTER PICKING UP YET MORE INFERENCES OF COMPLETE INVISIBILITY AND LACK OF AWARENESS OF THAT ISSUE EVEN EXISTING (THAT WAS IN SEVERAL POSTS, INCLUDING YOUR OWN). AND THEN YOU DECIDED TO TAKE ISSUE WITH IT AFTER I WAS THANKED BY THE SAME BLOODY POSTER. AND ALL OF THAT WHEN I'VE LIKELY BEEN THROUGH THE SAME FUCKING TRAUMA DEALING AS YOU HAVE. YOU CAN HAPPILY FOCUS PURELY ON FEMALE VICTIMS FOR ALL YOU LIKE, JUST DON'T WRITE POSTS IMPLYING IT NEVER HAPPENS TO MEN, WHICH YES YOU FUCKING DID.

 

[LaFemme]

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

[TexanStar]

JUST DON'T WRITE POSTS IMPLYING IT NEVER HAPPENS TO MEN, WHICH YES YOU FUCKING DID.

I've ready through this thread three times now looking for this and can't find it. What are you talking about?

 

[englad]

I've ready through this thread three times now looking for this and can't find it. What are you talking about?

This one implies she didn't bother to teach her sons about warning signs for being sexual assaulted themselves (presumably because she didn't think that was a risk):

"I believe more in teaching our sons not to become abusers. I raised my boys to know the rules about sex. No sleeping with women who were drunk (more than two drinks, if you don’t know how much, don’t do it), no sex with high women, make sure they say ‘yes’ and if they ever say ‘no’ stop. I got pretty graphic, when they were older. I starting teaching them the value of sex, the meaning and closeness a long time ago. They still follow those rules. No hurting women. Period. She hits you, walk away. Run, drive, take a train, plane, whatever, do not retaliate. No hurting women.

I know the fear in sending your female babies out into the world. I taught mine to listen to their instincts. That not everyone is safe even if most people are. I taught them about the abuses out there. It has already saved one of them. The fear is real. Just be there and allow openness and unconditional love between you both."

These posts from other posters both gave the impression that it doesn't happen to men:

"The system is not very victim centric in this regards. I'm amazed that any women does, to be honest... "

"I recoil in horror at the harsh reality my beautiful 18 year old niece is stepping into. You ladies and gentlemen have given this old man much to think about as her high school graduation and her gap year of service in another city approach. How do I prepare her? How do I prepare myself? "

 

[TexanStar]

This one implies she didn't bother to teach her sons about warning signs for being sexual assaulted themselves (presumably because she didn't think that was a risk):

That's your assumption, not an implication in the text. To me the text reads that she considers it more important as a society to teach our sons not to commit sex crimes than it is to teach our daughters how to avoid being victimized it. It was about holding men accountable for bad behavior, not about leaving boys defenseless.

These posts from other posters both gave the impression that it doesn't happen to men:

"The system is not very victim centric in this regards. I'm amazed that any women does, to be honest... "

Once again, you are in the women's issues subforum. That people are talking about the experiences of women does not inherently imply that men cannot or do not have those experiences.

"I recoil in horror at the harsh reality my beautiful 18 year old niece is stepping into. You ladies and gentlemen have given this old man much to think about as her high school graduation and her gap year of service in another city approach. How do I prepare her? How do I prepare myself? "

Yet again, this is women's issues. Quit being so damn defensive and let people talk about women.

I get into this with another poster all the time... Just because you are gay does not mean that you are incapable of being oppressive. You are still male. And right now, you are being a male who is walking into a space that is designated in the title itself as a space for women and discussing the issues that affect them and you are smashing your caps lock button screaming over the women here, taking offense that they are having a discussion focused on women's experiences in a space on the forum set aside for women's issues.

Check your privilege or something. No one is discounting the horrible experiences that you may have had with sexual assault in your lifetime as a man, but you are aggressively pushing to change the topic away from women's issues. As LaFemme already told you politely and clearly, if you want to discuss the vulnerability and susceptibility of men to sexual assault you are very capable to hit the new post button and do it.

 

[693987]

It's as though any thread a woman makes in Women's Issues on here needs a fucking disclaimer...

My last thread started something like this:

Firstly, yes, I know blank is not just something women deal with. That being said, this particular blank is predominantly in relation to what women deal with in this case. I'm not putting this in Politics or Etc. I welcome and encourage anyone on here to post in this thread. It's sad I have to make disclaimers like this damn near any time I try to talk about shit on here, since inevitably there will likely be some men that pop in here to derail into oblivion.

 

[englad]

That's your assumption, not an implication in the text. To me the text reads that she considers it more important as a society to teach our sons not to commit sex crimes than it is to teach our daughters how to avoid being victimized it. It was about holding men accountable for bad behavior, not about leaving boys defenseless.

To me, the text reads that's the only thing she thinks should be taught. Could I be wrong? Yes. I am not reading it through a heterosexually privileged lens though.

Yet again, this is women's issues. Quit being so damn defensive and let people talk about women.

I get into this with Industrialsize all the time... Just because you are gay does not mean that you are incapable of being oppressive. You are still male. And right now, you are being a male who is walking into a space that is designated in the title itself as a space for women and discussing the issues that affect them and you are smashing your caps lock button screaming over the women here, taking offense that they are having a discussion focused on women's experiences in a space on the forum set aside for women's issues.
Check your privilege or something

Generally I am very supportive of women's issues, I just tend to get into arguments with ignorant straight people of either sex on any topic that can be related back to sexuality. Because both of you have appeared extremely clueless on that topic (especially LGBT topics). I don't think I ever argue with any LGBT women.There is a reason for that TexanStar, it shouldn't take you more than a few seconds to work it out...

I DO NOT TAKE OFFENCE AT FEMALE SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS BEING PRIORITISED IN THE DISCUSSION, I ONLY TAKE OFFENCE AT BEING TOLD OFF FOR BRINGING UP ONE PERTINENT ISSUE ON THE TOPIC OF REPORTING RATES, BASED ON AN INFERENCE PICKED UP OFF ANOTHER POST (WHOSE POSTER HAD ALREADY THANKED ME FOR POINTING IT OUT).

Lacking privilege in one place, does not mean you can't have it in another. If you can recognise that with me, you should be able to recognise that with her.



.

No one is discounting the horrible experiences that you may have had with sexual assault in your lifetime as a man, but you are aggressively pushing to change the topic away from women's issues. As LaFemme already told you politely and clearly, if you want to discuss the vulnerability and susceptibility of men to sexual assault you are very capable to hit the new post button and do it.

That's precisely what I'm doing at the moment. No ignorant heterosexuals will be welcome in that thread.

Now I will gently point out that the only reason why I'm responding at this stage is you keep re-quoting me. Because you took offence at two off topic posts which were frankly pertinent to the topic of low reporting rates, which is common to all sexual assault survivors. And I also didn't report it , and neither did any men or women I know do so (and I know both, and I was speaking about sexual assault survivors of both sexes in the posts prior to those two).

My personal experience is there is a huge amount of solidarity between sexual assault survivors (both men and women) who have been through this. One person's pain doesn't negate the other, and we can relate on a level of dealing with the shock, trauma, senses of entitlement, a blatant disregard for your human dignity etc. Opening up to each other is really therapeutic. So I'm sorry that such a tiny proportion of sexual assault survivors report, but having been there I understand why. So I feel a huge amount of sympathy, compassion and solidarity to the vast majority of victims who are female.

I constantly requoted that phrase, on several occasions.