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I AM TAKING A BREAK
- Thread starter hungthick
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NelsonMuntz84:
Nothing wrong with you having your opinions, after all he's getting credit for following his own believes. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and I'd be slightly uncomfortable with anyone reading this and thinking all Catholics have the idea the homosexuality is somehow evil, its a very subjective issue in society in general, not just with the catholic faith.
My take on it all as a hetrosexual man is that as long as something is between to consenting adults, I dont care what anyone gets up too. Also we are taught at school, that even if someone is opposed to homesexuality, that you 'hate the sin not the sinner' so in that respect no one should turn their back on anyone due to their sexuality.
Not to sound a smart arse but sometimes you feel in the media and online that the debate on homosexuality has somehow become a much bigger issue in America than it has in the rest of the world.
Nothing wrong with you having your opinions, after all he's getting credit for following his own believes. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and I'd be slightly uncomfortable with anyone reading this and thinking all Catholics have the idea the homosexuality is somehow evil, its a very subjective issue in society in general, not just with the catholic faith.
My take on it all as a hetrosexual man is that as long as something is between to consenting adults, I dont care what anyone gets up too. Also we are taught at school, that even if someone is opposed to homesexuality, that you 'hate the sin not the sinner' so in that respect no one should turn their back on anyone due to their sexuality.
Not to sound a smart arse but sometimes you feel in the media and online that the debate on homosexuality has somehow become a much bigger issue in America than it has in the rest of the world.
NelsonMuntz84:
Its not the same, say someone is ill and people on here say I'll pray for them, your not praying too them are you ?Its the same with the Saints, your asking them to pray usually for someone else, its a subtle difference.
The aspects of the Church I have issues with are not the Virgin, the Saints or Jesus rising from the dead, its the modern rules that the vactican imposes without caring for its own people, essentially what I would losely term the 'man made rules since 69' Those are the problems that exist in Rome, and one of which to a degree is what was brought up in the first post of this topic in respect to gay people.
I personally, though a roman catholic, dont agree with the sentiments, I come from a much more liberial background, but he wasn't name calling, being offensive (on purpose) so its best to wish the fella well and let him lead his life, and you and I lead ours.
Its not the same, say someone is ill and people on here say I'll pray for them, your not praying too them are you ?Its the same with the Saints, your asking them to pray usually for someone else, its a subtle difference.
The aspects of the Church I have issues with are not the Virgin, the Saints or Jesus rising from the dead, its the modern rules that the vactican imposes without caring for its own people, essentially what I would losely term the 'man made rules since 69' Those are the problems that exist in Rome, and one of which to a degree is what was brought up in the first post of this topic in respect to gay people.
I personally, though a roman catholic, dont agree with the sentiments, I come from a much more liberial background, but he wasn't name calling, being offensive (on purpose) so its best to wish the fella well and let him lead his life, and you and I lead ours.
Here follows the cathechistic answer: Hail Mary (or Ave Maria) is indeed a prayer, but a prayer of intercession. We are praying to God through the intercession of Mary. Mary is the most revered of all the saints; she was, after all, chosen from among all women to the the mother of the Incarnate God. She has a special relationship with God. In the Catholic Church, she bears the title of Mediatrix. We offer our prayers for Mary to 'pass on' to God, so to speak. We're asking her to pray to God in our behalf. Notice the wording of the second half of the Ave Maria; it begins, "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners..." Notice in litanies, when we address God we say, "Receive our prayer", but when we address the saints we say, "Pray for us." The difference is that we pray to God, but ask intercession from the saints. The theological terms for the difference are saints receive reverence ("doulia"), Mary receives elevated reverence ("hyperdoulia"), but adoration ("latreia") is reserved for God alone.
That's not being a judgmental asshole; that's being human. Theologically speaking, one cannot afford respect to God without showing respect to those created in His image. We all have a bit of God in us. I realise that you don't believe any of this, but I'm just presenting what the Christian ideal is. hungthick is entitled to his opinion. It is not particularly homophobic (before changing his profile, he listed himself as '40% homosexual'
; he is simply saying that this site is not providing what he needs in his life right now. Mind you, hungthick is not exactly my favourite person in the world, and I've butted heads with him on more than one occasion, but to his credit, I read no disrespect to any of us in his post.. . . . Intercession of the saints is a concept very misunderstood by Protestants.)
Jacinto: Please don't generalize and say this concept is "very misunderstood by Protestants". True, there are some of us who misunderstand, but far from all of us. Just one word (some) before "Protestants" would have kept me from getting a slap in the face.
Luke
[post=291583]Quoted post[/post]
[/quote]Jacinto: Please don't generalize and say this concept is "very misunderstood by Protestants". True, there are some of us who misunderstand, but far from all of us. Just one word (some) before "Protestants" would have kept me from getting a slap in the face.
Luke
I'm sorry, Luke; I meant no offence or slight. Saintly intercession is a very Catholic/Orthodox/Coptic concept, as are things like papal infallibility and transubstantiation, and most Protestants misinterpret what they perceive. I didn't mean to imply that non-Catholics cannot understand complex theological matters. In fact, many Catholics understand surprisingly little about the theology of their religion.
Gentlemen:
Aftr having read all of the pronouncements I feel I must put in my 2cents worth.Coming frrom a strong roman Catholic family on my mothers side of the family. I have to admit that I have been aa life long Presbyterian. due to problems in the church(Caholic) my grandfather forbade anyone from attending the Catholc church because he felt it was worse than none. I am not a scholar of the Catholic or any oher church. But I have attended and been an officer and choir member for many years. I think our friend is searching for something to hang his hat on. I think many of us are in the same position . But I would not go so far as to spite my nose, to save my face.In the world we live in today I think all caring people only have to read the paper and see what is happening in the Catholic church. In spite of all my feelings I wouldn to want to embroil myself in that mess
My friend may you go forth with open eyes and heart and find that which yu seek.
and go with the grace of God and find yourself in this Easter Season
Aftr having read all of the pronouncements I feel I must put in my 2cents worth.Coming frrom a strong roman Catholic family on my mothers side of the family. I have to admit that I have been aa life long Presbyterian. due to problems in the church(Caholic) my grandfather forbade anyone from attending the Catholc church because he felt it was worse than none. I am not a scholar of the Catholic or any oher church. But I have attended and been an officer and choir member for many years. I think our friend is searching for something to hang his hat on. I think many of us are in the same position . But I would not go so far as to spite my nose, to save my face.In the world we live in today I think all caring people only have to read the paper and see what is happening in the Catholic church. In spite of all my feelings I wouldn to want to embroil myself in that mess
My friend may you go forth with open eyes and heart and find that which yu seek.
and go with the grace of God and find yourself in this Easter Season
NelsonMuntz84:
I know what your saying but the mess in the Catholic church is down to whats not happening, rather than what is. I'd also point out that here the Presbyterian Church has the same problem.
HungThick is making his choice, but the stuff about not being around gays or bi is his idea of dealing with life, I certainly dont think its about being a Catholic, its certainly not my idea of being a Catholic and not a universal one.
I know what your saying but the mess in the Catholic church is down to whats not happening, rather than what is. I'd also point out that here the Presbyterian Church has the same problem.
HungThick is making his choice, but the stuff about not being around gays or bi is his idea of dealing with life, I certainly dont think its about being a Catholic, its certainly not my idea of being a Catholic and not a universal one.
I'm sorry, Luke; I meant no offence or slight. Saintly intercession is a very Catholic/Orthodox/Coptic concept, as are things like papal infallibility and transubstantiation, and most Protestants misinterpret what they perceive. I didn't mean to imply that non-Catholics cannot understand complex theological matters. In fact, many Catholics understand surprisingly little about the theology of their religion.
[post=291735]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]I'm sure I knew, even before your reply, that you didn't intentionally mean ALL Protestants, Jacinto, but I must be short-fused today. One of my oldest and closest friends teaches at Christian Bros. High School in St Louis and I became interested in Roman Catholicism soon after meeting him. I have a lot of respect for your religion, especially the pageantry, and I'm usually fascinated by your replies concerning religion.
pals still?- jonb,
@Jacinto:
Don't be surprised; who but a Protestant could start a jihad over things like "What is a day in creation?"
Intercession's nothing new. It's kinda like that near-universal "avoidance relationship", meaning you respect your in-laws too much to talk to them. So a man's wife will be the intercessor between him and her parents. Actually, Wohpe's an intercessor in Lakota tradition. So are the winds. So as I said, intercession was one of the easiest doctrines for us to grasp when we were auctioned off to the Catholics. (All the glamorous tribes became Catholic simply because the government auctioned tribes off to the highest bidder.)
Don't be surprised; who but a Protestant could start a jihad over things like "What is a day in creation?"
Intercession's nothing new. It's kinda like that near-universal "avoidance relationship", meaning you respect your in-laws too much to talk to them. So a man's wife will be the intercessor between him and her parents. Actually, Wohpe's an intercessor in Lakota tradition. So are the winds. So as I said, intercession was one of the easiest doctrines for us to grasp when we were auctioned off to the Catholics. (All the glamorous tribes became Catholic simply because the government auctioned tribes off to the highest bidder.)
dcwrestlefan
Sexy Member
After some thought, I think an apology is needed here. By me.
My post in this thread, and others, has been pretty harsh on religion. It was in no way, however, meant to be a personal attack on those that consider God to be an important part of their lives. My mom is one.
If someone balks at something I consider important, I might consider it an insult. So, I should have been more respectful of others and kept my mouth shut. There are certainly many Christians, and those of other faiths, that are warm wonderful people.
Again, sorry guys and gals.
My post in this thread, and others, has been pretty harsh on religion. It was in no way, however, meant to be a personal attack on those that consider God to be an important part of their lives. My mom is one.
If someone balks at something I consider important, I might consider it an insult. So, I should have been more respectful of others and kept my mouth shut. There are certainly many Christians, and those of other faiths, that are warm wonderful people.
Again, sorry guys and gals.
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Jacinto, Thanks for this excellent explanation. I already knew that. In my post earlier I made some statements. I was replying to a very caustic letter even challenging my character from a 15 year old boy who was insisting that I pray to saints.
It is true that Protestants dont' see a need to have a saint in heaven pray for us. However, I don't have a problem with it. I do believe that we can pray directly to Jesus. I don't know what Catholic dogma is on that. But when a child dies, I always think of Mother Mary cradling the child in her arms in heaven. Protestant tradition does not give enough praise to Saint Mary the Mother of Jesus the second part of the Holy Trinity. For her to be selected among all women in the world speaks volumes about her character and who she was. She is the most favored and always will be among women. I love Ave Maria. No one in our church will sing it. Not for theological reasons but because it is difficult. I play it for nearly every wedding and always at least twice during Advent and Christmastide. And membvers request it every year and many do at weddings.
Protestants generally end prayers with "in Jesus name". But the concept of asking a saint in heaven to pray for them is an interesting concept. The saints are at worship and what is a part of worship - intercession. So it does make sense.
As you may know, a saint in most Protestant churches is any Christian who has died and gone to heaven or has reached a point a point here on earth that God has already exalted them to saint status. So for example, I would have counted Mother Theresa as a saint even before she died. And Pope John Paul to me has already entered sainthood here on earth. It is difficult for us to identify that. I know some Protestants believe that a saint is any Christian in good standing with God. So the word has more than one meaning. As Pual said he was going to meet the saints at a certain church.
So on All Saints Day we name every member who has passed away as an honored saint as well as all Christians who have died in the Lord througout the ages.
What I don't know is can Catholics ask only saints to intercede? What about Mother Theresa? Can she hear a request and intercede and pray for someone on earth in the same way as Mother Mary? What about my grandmother whom I adored? Can she hear my prayers and pray for me according to Catholic theology?
In closing, Jacinto, I have great respect for your church. The Methodist Church does give more freedom. We can just delete or change the entire worship service if we want to without any approval from anyone. I know that in the Catholic Church the liturgy is set. Main difference: the liturgy is optional in the Methodist Church and not in the Catholic.
If I lived in the hills of Arkansas and was not a staff member, I would probalby attend the Subiaco Abbey. I simply am awed by that church, more so than any I have ever been in. I just feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in that Abbey. It is so strong. That crucifix just sent chills up my spine. I saw the Abey about two years ago for the first time. The challice was under the feet of Jesus. I was strangely moved and strangely warmed by that experience. I have no problem with the crucifix. Especially at Holy Communion. We are after all receiving the body and blood of Jesus Chrsit at Communion. Why not have a crucifix?
You are a great guy and I am a horrible rambler. I am sorry that you and your church were questioned by some. Christianity would not have survived had it not been for The Roman Church. Any serious student of church history would know that. Peter was the first Patriarch of Rome. For those who don't know Patriarch is Greek and Pope is Latin. When the Roman Church adopted Latin in the mass instead of Greek the term for patriarch was changed to Pope. At least that is what my father taught me and he had a mastors degree in ancient history.
Rest assured that I have the greatest respect for you. And it would please me greatly to sit with you in the worship of the Almighty God in your church or mine. That would be an honor for me.
Thanks for your friendship.
Freddie
It is true that Protestants dont' see a need to have a saint in heaven pray for us. However, I don't have a problem with it. I do believe that we can pray directly to Jesus. I don't know what Catholic dogma is on that. But when a child dies, I always think of Mother Mary cradling the child in her arms in heaven. Protestant tradition does not give enough praise to Saint Mary the Mother of Jesus the second part of the Holy Trinity. For her to be selected among all women in the world speaks volumes about her character and who she was. She is the most favored and always will be among women. I love Ave Maria. No one in our church will sing it. Not for theological reasons but because it is difficult. I play it for nearly every wedding and always at least twice during Advent and Christmastide. And membvers request it every year and many do at weddings.
Protestants generally end prayers with "in Jesus name". But the concept of asking a saint in heaven to pray for them is an interesting concept. The saints are at worship and what is a part of worship - intercession. So it does make sense.
As you may know, a saint in most Protestant churches is any Christian who has died and gone to heaven or has reached a point a point here on earth that God has already exalted them to saint status. So for example, I would have counted Mother Theresa as a saint even before she died. And Pope John Paul to me has already entered sainthood here on earth. It is difficult for us to identify that. I know some Protestants believe that a saint is any Christian in good standing with God. So the word has more than one meaning. As Pual said he was going to meet the saints at a certain church.
So on All Saints Day we name every member who has passed away as an honored saint as well as all Christians who have died in the Lord througout the ages.
What I don't know is can Catholics ask only saints to intercede? What about Mother Theresa? Can she hear a request and intercede and pray for someone on earth in the same way as Mother Mary? What about my grandmother whom I adored? Can she hear my prayers and pray for me according to Catholic theology?
In closing, Jacinto, I have great respect for your church. The Methodist Church does give more freedom. We can just delete or change the entire worship service if we want to without any approval from anyone. I know that in the Catholic Church the liturgy is set. Main difference: the liturgy is optional in the Methodist Church and not in the Catholic.
If I lived in the hills of Arkansas and was not a staff member, I would probalby attend the Subiaco Abbey. I simply am awed by that church, more so than any I have ever been in. I just feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in that Abbey. It is so strong. That crucifix just sent chills up my spine. I saw the Abey about two years ago for the first time. The challice was under the feet of Jesus. I was strangely moved and strangely warmed by that experience. I have no problem with the crucifix. Especially at Holy Communion. We are after all receiving the body and blood of Jesus Chrsit at Communion. Why not have a crucifix?
You are a great guy and I am a horrible rambler. I am sorry that you and your church were questioned by some. Christianity would not have survived had it not been for The Roman Church. Any serious student of church history would know that. Peter was the first Patriarch of Rome. For those who don't know Patriarch is Greek and Pope is Latin. When the Roman Church adopted Latin in the mass instead of Greek the term for patriarch was changed to Pope. At least that is what my father taught me and he had a mastors degree in ancient history.
Rest assured that I have the greatest respect for you. And it would please me greatly to sit with you in the worship of the Almighty God in your church or mine. That would be an honor for me.
Thanks for your friendship.
Freddie
madame_zora
Sexy Member
But I did it in a way complete with double entendre.Originally posted by jonb+Mar 18 2005, 05:56 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jonb @ Mar 18 2005, 05:56 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-hung_big@Mar 17 2005, 05:16 PM
Must EVERYONE point out my errors *sigh*
Yes, even I make mistakes
[post=291791]Quoted post[/post]
[post=291977]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]Jonb, you know you're an elitist prick and no one gets your jokes- if I had to guess I'd say you like it that way. Every once in a while I get them and I feel proud of myself, so don't ever change.
hung_big: I was aware of the double entendre...'U' instead of 'you'
*sigh* I just didn't think it was funny Jon
*sigh* I just didn't think it was funny Jon
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