I can't believe there isn't a healthcare thread

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Notaguru2, Aug 9, 2009.

  1. Notaguru2

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    Ok, enlighten me. What is wrong with the healthcare plan? Healthcare hasn't moderated privately all of these years, what makes one think that costs will come down on their own?

    The positives, I see them:
    1. Inter-State insurance purchase options
    2. Moderating private insurance/healthcare costs
    3. Affordable insurance to those who want it, but haven't been able to get it (public/co-op option)
    4. The end of "pre-existing" conditions as we know it
    5. Lower costs for prescription drugs
    6. Finally being able to legally buy drugs from other countries
    7. Tax cuts to small businesses for providing insurance
    8. Saving individual families an average of $2,500 a year (after tax money)
    9. Healthcare regulation

    The lies from the uninformed
    1. The government (aka taxpayers) will be paying for abortions. This is untrue and a scare tactic.
    2. The government will be euthanizing our elderly. This is simply preposterous.
    3. Its socialism. If you think it is, you need to educate yourself. We're not a socialist country and never will be. This is not a doorway to it either.

    Healthcare reform is coming - you can stick it in the bank. The best way to shape this inevitable legislation is by participating in the development of the legislation through your congressmen/women.

    For me, my number one question is how to pay for it. I'm not sure what the costs are right now as they seem to be changing daily. I believe the last thing I heard was comething like $800B over the next 10 years. With everything else that is on our political plate right now, this plan seems fiscally challenging. However, we're at a now or never point. If we do not do something, insurance costs are expected to go up more than $10k a year for the average american by 2016.

    What do you like in the plan? What do you dislike? Do you want to do nothing about it and stick with the status quo?

    In particular, if anyone has any links (unbiased) that can spell out what the plan in its current incarnation is, please post those.
     
    #1 Notaguru2, Aug 9, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2009
  2. mynameisnobody

    mynameisnobody New Member

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    That's the big question. A system which can't be paid for is a system which will collapse. The financials can't simply be ignored.

    Unfortunately, government is perhaps the worst possible way to control costs of anything. Unlike a business enterprise, government doesn't have to make a profit to be successful. Efficiency and thrift simply aren't part of the bureaucratic way of life. If a bureaucracy spends too much, it just asks for a bigger budget the next year. And if it's determined to be "too big to fail" (where have we heard that lately?), it will get the money it asks for. This process can, and will, continue without limit.

    For a bit less than two years, Massachusetts has had a semi-government system of health insurance - a mandatory mix of private plans, semi-subsidized private plans, and purely government-financed plans for the considerable number of residents at the bottom of the income scale. The quality of medical care one can get under the system hasn't declined (at least not yet, although the bureaucracy is gradually tightening up on what it considers "necessary" medical treatments) but the costs are ballooning alarmingly, and the state is spiralling toward bankruptcy. And that in less than two years. What would make anyone believe that the federal government can do something which a single (relatively wealthy) state can't?
     
  3. Industrialsize

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    I NEED healthcare reform NOW. I'm a small business owner and purchase my health insurance at group rates through our local chamber of commerce. I pay 740 dollars a month. On top of that are co-pays every time I see a doctor or fill a prescription. I am trying to sell my business and semi retire(early).I have looked into purchasing health insurance on the open market as an individual. I have several pre-existing conditions which require regular maintenance and medication. Some companies have flat out told me they won't sell me insurance because of pre-existing conditons and those that WILL sell me insurance are askin @ 1500 dollars a month with a 2 year period where any illness resulting from my pre-existin conditions would not be covered. I would join a "medicare" like public health plan in a heartbeat. The Republican plan(if you want to call it that) would give me a 2,000 dollar tax credit so I can purchase insurance on the open market. A fifth grader could do that math and see that won't cut it. I think it is criminal that in our country a person like me who has worked hard his whole life and created a thriving small business should have to worry about his health care bills bankrupting him.
     
  4. Principessa

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    I have avoided this topic because it hits too close to home, I guess. :redface:

    Don't people who already have good or at least adequate insurance get to keep their current plan? If/when there is a change in national healthcare. If not then that clearly sucks and I am not for it even though my mom currently pays almost $400 a month for me to have mediocre care and coverage. As a retired NJ teacher my mom has health benefits that are as good as any senator or congressman. Dad is also covered by her plan. To take that away from them would be asinine.
     
  5. lucky8

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    Best quote I've ever heard from a conservative: "My husband's been on unemployment for 9 months, and we are very opposed to a socialized Amerca." A woman said this to me last week at work. I about shit a brick
     
  6. lucky8

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    Yes. If you have health insurance, nothing will change except the cost. If you don't have health insurance because you can't afford it or were denied, you will now have an option. That's all this is...an OPTION.

    For those unaware, here is the definition of an option provided by Webster's:

    1 : an act of choosing
    2 a : the power or right to choose : freedom of choice b : a privilege of demanding fulfillment of a contract on any day within a specified time
    3 : something that may be chosen: as a : an alternative course of action <didn't have many options open> b : an item that is offered in addition to or in place of standard equipment

    Wow, after reading those definitions, having an option sounds pretty damn American to me
     
  7. Industrialsize

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    My favorite sign at a Townhall,"Keep the Government out of my Medicare!"
     
  8. Industrialsize

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    There is so much dis-information being spouted about health care reform. Here's a tongue in cheek attempt to wade through it:
    "
    Dear Republicans,
    Over the past week, we have seen your passionate protests and heard your concerns about Democratic proposals for health care reform. We have considered your insightful and well reasoned arguments, and on behalf of progressives everywhere, I am here to say: OK! We give up! We are willing to compromise on the proposals that concern you. You've won! Yay!
    In accordance with your cogent and potent criticisms, these are the terms of our concession:

    1. We will not euthanize your grandmother. This is the big one, and I really hope you guys appreciate how much of a concession this is on behalf of the progressive movement. Since the days of the Bull Moose Party, progressives have wanted nothing more than to slaughter old people by the millions. That much is obvious. After all, if we wanted senior citizens to have long and healthy lives, why would we have created Social Security and Medicare? Think about it. Death to grannies has long been the core of progressive policy, so it's not without some consternation that we give it up. So there: no euthanizing old people. You've got it....."
    Daily Kos: Alright Republicans, We Give Up..
     
  9. SpeedoGuy

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    Its not the "uninformed" spreading such lies and half-truths. Quite the opposite, really. The very well informed and the very vested-in-the-status-quo are speading such stuff to appeal to fear, particularly fear of change. Its an effective tactic.

    I overhear similar selective ignorance now and again. Its truly astonishing. I can only guess that socialism is what other non-self reliant people practice, never ourselves.
     
  10. Notaguru2

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    .. and don't touch my medicare! ;-)
     
  11. Industrialsize

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    This is the most immediate issue being debated in the country and no on has posted to it for 15 hours. What an embarrassment for a politics forum that this thread is dead and all the "birther" threads are alive and kicking.
     
  12. HazelGod

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    My suspicion is that few understand even the generalities of this complex proposal, much less the minute details that would form the foundation of a rational, defensible argument in favor or against it.

    I myself have not fully digested the full proposal...not even close. Big props to Jason_Els for linking the document (in another thread here).

    That said, I seriously question the wisdom of discussing the matter here. The popular subjects in this forum and the general level of discourse found therein don't make for a very compelling ROI. One doesn't have to be a professional prognosticator to foresee the usual partisan sniping, bickering and nitpicking drowning out any meaningful attempts at conversation in short order. The usual suspects will lob lures from beneath their bridges, and the other usual suspects will merrily allow themselves to be pulled right down by them.

    And just like in the real world, those of us who don't align with either side of this tired-ass right/left dichotomy will be largely marginalized - if not outright ignored - and wind up taking the shit-end of the final stick.

    :yawn:
     
  13. Notaguru2

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  14. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

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    HG, are you stating the discourse would be littered with terms like "libtards" and "repugnicans"? Nooooo. :rolleyes:

    I haven't commented for a few reasons:

    I support socialized medicine and believe the U.S. is long overdue in offering a public healthcare option. That belief will not change, so why debate it?

    Although I read the initial proposal during his campaign, and liked it as a starting point! I have only skimmed Obama's current healthcare reports and proposals (which are almost overwhelming), and would need more time to read before being able to discuss it with any sort of command of the topic.

    Additionally, I think very few are even skimming the documents, and even fewer understand the basics of what's being presented to them, from whatever sources, leaving them confused (like NJQT above - no disrespect). Or, worse, confused and so influenced by outside sources, they take on, and defend, another's position without offering analysis of their own - which leads to the final reason.

    As our ability to care for fellow citizens is an important topic that speaks to the essence of American humanity - I won't take part in a discussion that will likely devolve into name calling, personal attacks, half-spun half-truths, and general ignorance supported by partisan talking points, pro & con, as opposed to an honest discussion about how a public option in healthcare, or the lack of it, impacts the individual and the state.
     
  15. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    I love you.....
     
  16. B_Dustydo

    B_Dustydo New Member

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    HOLY CRAP!
    Did Hell just freeze over?

    This has to be one of the very few rational posts I've read to date in this particular forum.

    Well done.
     
  17. B_ccc888

    B_ccc888 New Member

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    Choose

    GOVERNMENT ?

    or

    GREEDY FOR PROFIT INSURANCE COMPANIES ?

    Watch the Republican PROPOSAL for Health Care here........


    YouTube - Voyager 151-Critical care 1/5

    Sounds familiar ?


    State of the arts health care for the wealthiest and connected

    and for poor losers

    Die you die losers !

    LOL
     
  18. HazelGod

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    Exactly, doll...I've got much better uses for my pearls than tossing them at swine. :wink:
     
  19. midlifebear

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    My position on fixing health care in the USA was, I thought, well known. I'm all for it. About a year ago there were several threads on health care where I posted personal experiences about not being able to get or afford health care in the USA and other posts on how I circumvented the current status quo in the USA by becoming a resident (not a citizen, but a tax-paying resident) who enjoys incredible health care in another country. Spain not only has an opt-in form of national health care system, but the quality of care is superior to that available to the general population of the USA. But the mentally ill neocons who visited this site constantly attacked me insisting that I "hated" the USA and had nothing positive to add to the "discussion." Point of fact, there was no discussion. There was just unqualified bullying and name calling by trolls who most likely didn't even have passports or traveled outside of their tri-state "comfort" zone.

    It seems several of those mentally ill posters are no longer around. As Martha would say, "It's a good thing." But I'm not holding my breath nor will I come running back to the USA when or if reasonable universal health care becomes a reality in the USA. I'm too old and too fucking tired to care.

    I read Industrialsize's lament about how much it costs him for monthly premiums as a business owner and he definitely has my sympathy. I, too, own several businesses in the USA and every three or four years I have to shop for another group insurance carrier to provide expensive insurance that is less expensive than what my employees currently have. For me the cheapest monthly premium quoted has been $1,500 a month with an annual $20,000 deductible and a lifetime coverage of $100,000 of which I would still have to pay 20%. That was the absolute cheapest. Hell, even catastrophic health care used to offer more benefits than that! Currently, you'll enjoy better odds playing Craps in Las Vegas!

    One thing is certain and that is the USA does NOT have the best health care in the world. When a fellow expat was ranting that I did not know what i was talking about, I simply reminded him that heart transplants and open-heart surgery were pioneered and refined in Cape Town, South Africa . . . not at John Hopkins or the Mayo Clinics. Of course, the cardiac surgeons who pioneered today's modern procedures used the notes kept by Germans who experimented with opening chests and tinkering with perfectly good hearts of people in concentration camps during WWII as their original references. But you'll be surprised (if you bother to do the research) how much further along cardiac research and surgery still are in South Africa compared to the USA.

    I hope the USA does pass a health care reform bill that allows everyone access to quality health care. But I'm afraid the ditto heads, insurance and drug lobbyists, and anyone who currently is making a dime off of another person's illness will screw the whole process to such a degree that the USA will end up with a camel instead of a well-bred races horse for a national health plan.

    As for me, Spain is and will continue to be my home until I drop dead, cremated, and scattered in the forests of the Southern Pyrenees. Anyone with the ability to think rationally can see how special interest groups are working hard to derail any success in passing a fair and equitable health care plan in the USA.

    Good luck.
     
    #19 midlifebear, Aug 11, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2009
  20. FuzzyKen

    FuzzyKen New Member

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    The first fact is that nobody truly has good health care coverage. If you think you do you are in a dream world. What you in fact "have" is a person who has not reached the right spot in the "death spiral" under which all medical insurance companies operate. This is true of both PPO's and HMOs.

    In the past ten years I have watched incredible changes and watched incredible denials in health care to those who were insured because a dead person is far cheaper than caring for a live one.

    My Mother was out and out killed by an HMO that denied her care again and again.

    I buried the Mother of one of my best friends last Friday. She complained again and again of health symptoms and that HMO ignored her completely. The woman died of pancreatic cancer and had been complaining of abnormalities and had them documented for over a year before the cancer was discovered.

    The existing health care proposals need to go back to the "drawing board". What has been proposed will never work because it relies on medical insurance providers to be honest and to place people before profits. This is something that they will never do willingly.

    What will happen once there are "two" systems is that the companies will "dump" the high risk patients on to the federal plan and will shed itself of these patients whenever they can. This will of course bankrupt the federal plan and dramatically increase the profits of the private carriers.

    The only system that will work in the end will be a single pay plan for everybody eliminating all insurance carriers from this business. This has it's flaws without doubt, but, based on single pay plans operating in other countries, at least it would be better and more equitable than what we have now.

    I have a friend on Medicare-Medical as an HIV patient in California. Even with budget cutbacks this man's medical care is far superior to what I have had. He has his health issues addressed, he has specialists, he is referred to these specialists in a reasonable period of time, he is treated well.

    I had complaints and I had issues that had not been addressed for over a year and the referrals never came my friends. A Few of you have good care. A Few of those who are over a certain age beacuse of agreements with employers and carriers have good care. The truth is that you only have good care if you are healthy. Get sick and watch how quickly the care starts to be held back from you.

    You think that things are great now, talk to some transplant patients now covered under private insurance. I can speak for two with whom I am acquainted. Anyone in this position is now facing bankruptcy from the cost of the anti-rejection drugs.

    This is real my friends I have seen it personally and it is not the spoutings of some individual with only political motives. What we have is broken. What has been proposed as is will not solve the problem.

    I reject the "Obamacare", but I retain respect for Obama for at least trying. All of you need to remember that the lobbiests and publicity machine for those who stand to gain by protecting big multi-billion dollar insurance companies are working overtime to mislead the American people into screwing themselves.

    I want to see something that goes far enough. So far, the mistake is trying to be conciliatory to an industry that has done nothing but abuse and in some cases actually kill American Citizens in the name of corporate greed and profit.
     
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