I can't believe there isn't a healthcare thread

[midlifebear]

Lets see why the government healthcare option won't work:

Medicare is bankrupt. Why would the public option work better?

Americans will not tolerate waiting for their treatment. All forms of socialized medicine ration care at the initial gate.

There are scores of insurance companies now. They compete by offering services and the lowest prices. Don't you think by now if there was a way of curbing healthcare costs, some insurance company would have done it? Don't you think Metlife might have tried to offer a lower premium and take business from Cigna? In America healthcare demand is inelastic.

Americans are fat. We are the fattest country on earth. Shit most of the posters on this site are "husky." Healthcare will be more expensive in a fat country. Why should a thin, in shape person have to pay for a fatso and his high blood pressure and obesity?

Canadians wait 8 months on average for surgery. Is that what you want? Canada has fewer people than California.

Basic healthcare in America means heart stents and artificial knees. Now it even includes obesity surgery. We have a math problem. EVERYONE is going to get sick and die. I have read that we spend $100,000 dollars for each death on final healthcare. 300,000,000 X $100,000 I believe is $300 trillion dollars. 75 years (average lifespan) into $300 trillion is about 4 trillion a year on healthcare. Without inflation. The total gross income of the "rich" is about $500 billion a year. If we confiscated every cent the "rich" earn there would be a 3 trillion deficit. To fund this boondoggle, the middle and lower classes would have to make up the $3 trillion deficit.

No wonder good people are howling. they smell a rat when they see it.

Sadly, one of the mentally ill posters I mentioned in my previous post is back. And sadly, once again he's blowing shit and disinformation because he's -- well, (to be polite) he simply doesn't know any better. However, it's more likely because he's just a raving asshole who is off his meds.

 

[midlifebear]

Them=Gov't

Gov't= The people we send to office

MR: In a post several pages back you mentioned you suffered "20 years" from the slings and arrows of a government-run hospital or clinic for "indians." If by "indians" you're alluding to the possibility that you're a member of a Native American tribe and had to deal with reservation-style medical services, you have my sympathy. But you also have to realize that the BIA is possibly the worst run and most racist agency in all of United States government. I'm surprised anyone makes it past their first year from depending upon BIA-funded and run clinics and hospitals.

Still, when it comes time for you to sign up at 65, I have no doubt you'll be glad to have the benefits of Medicare -- which, by the way, does not "dictate" what doctor you may or may not see. But you'll still be paying for a secondary insurance to pick up the slack that Medicare currently does not cover. By the time you are 65 that secondary insurance will probably cost as much as you are paying for your current "independent" personal insurance.

Good luck with that.

 

[Ethyl]

You forget we have healthcare for poverished children and the elderly. Its not like we arent helping those who make virtually no money to live on. Most of us in America just manage our money very poorly and many are looking for a bailout for their own horrible financial decisions. Its not my problem.

Medicaid is great...until the parent/s monthly income goes up ten dollars over the qualifying limit. Unless they find a job with health care benefits which is less and less likely these days, they're being penalised by making sure they don't exceed the income limit. That's no way to ensure families will make it out of poverty but rather exacerbates the problem. If we're going to call ourselves a nation with a high standard of living it is, in fact, our problem.

 

[midlifebear]

I was just reminded about one of the great aspects of the national health care I enjoy in Spain. If you have an appointment with a physician at 13:20 PM, then you'd damn well better be in his or her office/clinic at 13:20 PM. They know how to keep to a schedule and expect the same from their patients. If, on the rare occasion, the physician is called away because of an emergency, there is still an equally competent colleague in the office/clinic to take care of you at 13:20 PM.

Also, here in Barcelona they practice a quaint old tradition that no longer exists in the USA: physicians make house calls. In fact, one's GP usually makes at least one house call whether you need him or her to show up at your home or not. Physicians learn a lot from being in a patient's home and understanding a patient's environment.

 

[Cowabanga]

In the USA the health care issue is a party issue, and the Republican have made it known that all gloves are off to stop national health care reform. Also the Republican have not offer one solution to the 46 million without health care other than emergency room venues.

 

[Cowabanga]

Medicaid is great...until the parent/s monthly income goes up ten dollars over the qualifying limit. Unless they find a job with health care benefits which is less and less likely these days, they're being penalised by making sure they don't exceed the income limit. That's no way to ensure families will make it out of poverty but rather exacerbates the problem. If we're going to call ourselves a nation with a high standard of living it is, in fact, our problem.

After many years of having relative working for social services, it is a fallacy that poor people go around trying to stay poor for the govt benefit. I would like for you to try stay in poverty zone for awhile, and see how well you can make it.

 

[Jason]

Lots of strong views expressed on this thread.

The good thing is that America is debating the issue. Indeed I think this is excellent. By contrast in the UK the issues around our National Health Service (NHS) are scarcely discussed. For Labour the NHS is the iconic, big achievement of the first ever Labour government, and something which they argue is safest in their hands. For the Conservatives the whole area of the NHS is a minefield, as any hint of reform is presented as if destroying the whole NHS.

The benefits of the NHS are of course enormous. It does mean that everyone is covered (payments are through a charge on income called National Insurance, which we like to argue is not quite the same as an income tax). It does mean that the whole of society benefits.

However there are some issues which need to be discussed and which we are seemingly not prepared to discuss:
* Projections are that funding will not cover costs - and we are going to hit the buffers in two or three years.
* Fertility treatments are provided on the NHS - there are arguments about whether this is the most appropriate use of limited funds.
* Lots of treatment is in theory offered on the NHS but in practice very hard to find - eg dental, optical, chiropractic services.
* If you take out private health insurance you still have to pay your state contributions, so you pay twice.
* There is a considerably lobby saying that private health insurance (and treatment) is wrong because it unfairly advantages people who have it.
* There have been some shocking cases of abysmal hygiene in NHS wards.
* Rationing is by waiting lists. We also have the concept of a wait to get onto a waiting list so that politicians don't have to own up to just how long the lists are.
* To access almost all treatment including much private you have to go through a GP (family doctor). This can be a gritty experience. There are issues about getting appointments, issues of very, very short appointments so the first appointment is almost inevitably a fob off, and issues of over crowded surgeres (if you are not ill before you go you will be after your visit).
* Decisions on treatment does include an assessment of cost and benefit - yet most people in Britain seem unaware of this. The public reaction is usually that people believe the best treatment is always provided whatever the cost.

We need a discussion on what we are going to do. The NHS cannot continue as it is - the money is running out - but our socialist government is in denial and won't start the process. At least America is having a debate. Probably the easy sticking plaster for Britain would be to support private medecine (through tax breaks) to take some of the demand of the NHS. Labour are ideologically opposed. Conservatives might do it, but they are unlikely to put it in their manifesto as a lot of voters would object.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

It will always take longer and cost more than anyone ever dreamed. This is a utopian mindset to assume everyone who wants insurance will now be covered and anything they'll ever need will be paid for. Something has to give, and the quality of care will be the first sacrificed. You will get less and less covered and either it will be unavailble or out of pocket for you to get medicines that arent paid for by the gov't. Optical and Dental services are definitely going to be cut down. I've seen this happen in the indian health care.

Also, for those who like medicare and medicaid, have you ever tried to get an elderly person cared for with their list of health problems under that plan? Its a real pain in the ass when you start realizing what they dont pay for. I have cared for my elderly grandmother and was responsible for her medical care through that. Maybe for a healthy 35 year old its lovely, but its not when you are old and have real medical issues. We've had to spend a lot of her life savings on what they havent paid for with her hospital stays or medical procedures she needed.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Your medical care will be greatly limited in order for it not to go bankrupt. But you wont be happy until that happens. Because as long as it appears FREE you'll vote for it without disecting any of it and using simple math.

 

[Cowabanga]

Had we instilled preventative care, the long term illness of the elderly would have been cut down to size. Studies have suggest that national health care could drive the cost down. As for the elderly, doctors have been guilty often for over prescribing medicine as a fix all instead of cheaper more effective method. For many health care is a profit margin driven market.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

Had we instilled preventative care, the long term illness of the elderly would have been cut down to size. Studies have suggest that national health care could drive the cost down. As for the elderly, doctors have been guilty often for over prescribing medicine as a fix all instead of cheaper more effective method. For many health care is a profit margin driven market.

Seriously, are you nuts? Preventative care hasnt helped elderly that have severe arthritis, need knee replacements, have multiple crushed discs in their spine and many other health problems that you dont know much about obviously.

None of my health problems could have be "prevented" many of them are the luck of the draw with genetics. I am young and have health problems many people my age dont have.

You speak on behalf of the democratic handbook word for word. I speak about experience and you just want to blame everything on Republicans.

 

[Notaguru2]

In the USA the health care issue is a party issue, and the Republican have made it known that all gloves are off to stop national health care reform. Also the Republican have not offer one solution to the 46 million without health care other than emergency room venues.

All for naught; they [GOP] don't have a filibuster available. This reform is a done deal.

 

[Cowabanga]

Actually, I am in the health care preventative industry! I don't blame all this on Republicans, as legal bribery in the form of lobbyist from corporate interest have more to say about how govt are to be run. Just so happens that Newt Gingrich gave standing orders for the Republican party to do everything in their power to stop national health care reform.

If you look at the most liberal countries with national health care, their cost are far below the USA health care, and much better care and longer life span. I am not talking about particular cases of illness of your relative, but overall care of the population so that those with special need can be taken care of.

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

It will always take longer and cost more than anyone ever dreamed. This is a utopian mindset to assume everyone who wants insurance will now be covered and anything they'll ever need will be paid for. Something has to give, and the quality of care will be the first sacrificed. You will get less and less covered and either it will be unavailble or out of pocket for you to get medicines that arent paid for by the gov't. Optical and Dental services are definitely going to be cut down. I've seen this happen in the indian health care.

*Snip*

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Your medical care will be greatly limited in order for it not to go bankrupt. But you wont be happy until that happens. Because as long as it appears FREE you'll vote for it without disecting any of it and using simple math.

This is a possibility, however, it could also be successful.
I am not fully satisfied with President Obama’s proposal; however, I also understand that no policy is perfect in its initial form. Even the Constitution is not perfect, however, through amendments, it has come to more accurately reflect the principles and direction of the United States.

Therefore, if Obama, or anyone else, submits a plan to overhaul the healthcare system that is not perfect in its initial iteration, it can be amended and shaped until it does meet with the general satisfaction of all.

As far as "dissecting" - I am reading and analyzing all available data (as I’m sure you are as well), including comparative and thank you, Vince and Jason for your input.

Also, for those who like medicare and medicaid, have you ever tried to get an elderly person cared for with their list of health problems under that plan? Its a real pain in the ass when you start realizing what they dont pay for.

The same critique can be offered for private healthcare insurance.
However, once again, the public option is just that, an option.

I have cared for my elderly grandmother and was responsible for her medical care through that. Maybe for a healthy 35 year old its lovely, but its not when you are old and have real medical issues. We've had to spend a lot of her life savings on what they havent paid for with her hospital stays or medical procedures she needed.

I've had the same experience with grandparents and other family that had/have private insurance. I would like to comment on the VA, but can't any longer, and that's an issue as well.

In the USA the health care issue is a party issue, and the Republican have made it known that all gloves are off to stop national health care reform. Also the Republican have not offer one solution to the 46 million without health care other than emergency room venues.

This is a very simplistic view of an issue people are for or against across the political spectrum. While some groups may be more vocal than others, for which the quiet minority/majority have only themselves to blame, this issue transcends the typical, to this forum, political discourse model of partisan finger pointing.

Also, I am not of a 'party', never will be of a 'party' and for those who hold similar feelings, it would be nice to not have a debate devolve into the trite "Conservative v Liberal", "Democrat v Republican", "same old, same old".

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

Actually, I am in the health care preventative industry! I don't blame all this on Republicans, as legal bribery in the form of lobbyist from corporate interest have more to say about how govt are to be run. Just so happens that Newt Gingrich gave standing orders for the Republican party to do everything in their power to stop national health care reform.

If you look at the most liberal countries with national health care, their cost are far below the USA health care, and much better care and longer life span. I am not talking about particular cases of illness of your relative, but overall care of the population so that those with special need can be taken care of.

i dont mind reform, just dont make me a part of it. I can get free healthcare for the rest of my life already and i havent set foot in the hospital for many years for a reason. I'll use if i HAD to but its not my first choice. It would be my last choice.

When i need knee replacements one day like my mom, i will have to go to a private physician. The national healthcare wont cover them. They are too costly for their targeted age group.

As long as they say that i can opt out and keep doing what has been working for me through private insurance...i dont really care what they do. But i think they are talking out their asses to the masses.

 

[Jason]

When i need knee replacements one day like my mom, i will have to go to a private physician. The national healthcare wont cover them. They are too costly for their targeted age group

Knee ops and hip ops are covered in the UK by the National Health Service, and mostly these ops are performed on people of senior years. There seems to be broad agreement that they are performed whenever they will help and there is no rationing of the operation as such. But yes there are waiting lists. The usual wait is under five months, and there is prioritisation of people who are urgent.

Quite a lot of people do go private forthese ops - for quicker treatment and nicer hospital experience. A knee replacement costs around £10,000, hip replacement around £8,000.

 

[Ethyl]

After many years of having relative working for social services, it is a fallacy that poor people go around trying to stay poor for the govt benefit. I would like for you to try stay in poverty zone for awhile, and see how well you can make it.

*ahem* My niece is a social worker. I have a very good idea how things work.

Personally, I lived in the poverty zone last year. I was barely able to make rent much less worry about health care which I was without for four years until I was fortunate enough to land my current job. I'm a single woman and can't begin to imagine what I would've done if I had children.

Poor people don't try to stay poor for the gov't benefit. They keep a legitimate job and usually have another that pays them under the table so they can feed themselves and their kids while receiving those benefits. Are there people who are lazy and don't want to work? Yes. It's a shame we allow them to overshadow the ones who truly need help.

 

[Cowabanga]

Here's the fact you might want to mull over, This health care bill will only effect the top 2% of the population that makes over $200,000, and rich people cheat proportionately more than a few poor people working under the table.

I am not justifying not reporting your full income, but seems that those that are making vastly have skimmed off the benefit of our govt. Somehow manage to seek economic immunity when it comes to giving themselves bonuses from our tax money. Public option is a sensible reproach in offsetting the bailout money to the bankers. Otherwise the burden of their mistake is offset to the people. If we don't have nationalize healthcare, then it would just be more bailout to the insurance, and the drug company.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Also the Republican have not offer one solution to the 46 million without health care other than emergency room venues.

The Republican solution to the uninsured is, and always has been: Ronald Reagan and George W Bush gave you tax cuts so buy your own insurance or get lost.

 

[deleted15807]

The Republican solution to the uninsured is, and always has been: Ronald Reagan and George W Bush gave you tax cuts so buy your own insurance or get lost.

The entire ideology is based on nothing but tax cuts, no regulation and lavish money given to the Department of Defense with no strings attached. Now you tell me who will benefit the most from that ideology?

 

[B_Marius567]

I am paying 750.00 a year for my healthcare insurance from work and I do want it to cost more. I never use the insurance.

so I hope it stays the same.

there is Medicare!!