I don't believe gender is real and/or needed.

[Willyboy1994]

I have wanted to talk about this topic for a while now. so lets lay down the groundwork.

I started in believing everything people were saying until recently when i went digging for different perspectives and came to the following conclusion. whether this is correct or not I am not totally sure yet but I think its worth exploring.

Why do we need gender? at this point there is so many genders that i cant even take seriously anymore.
Why isn't it enough being born a man or a woman (leaving genetic chromosomal anomalies out of it for now to simply it at least a little bit and even with those anomalies you still fall usually within 1 more than the other). with just having 2 sexes people with Sex dysphoria aka as trans people are still not excluded.

I also think gender these days is just used as a synonym for how you feel and act. How about we let a man and woman live their lives, dress and have the hobbies they want. Feeling more feminine or masculine sometimes is just human.

I am annoyed with the whole gender debate cause it has only created division instead of the opposite it was suppose to do. Acceptance and inclusion have never been bigger buzz words and its sad that it has partially lost their meaning like so many other words.

I have a really hard time to get my point across sometimes so if you need clarification on anything or want to give me counter points why we need gender I would gladly respond. This post is also not meant to be hateful or dismiss people feelings and hope we can have a civil debate/conversation.

 

[deleted18388141]

This is how you see things according to your micro entourage maybe, but gender is a huge subject in a globe where machism and payriarchy are the rulers
It s intetesting to see how you articulate your opinion (i am almost agreeing with you)
I am curious to read more about this in this thread

 

[Willyboy1994]

This is how you see things according to your micro entourage maybe, but gender is a huge subject in a globe where machism and payriarchy are the rulers
It s intetesting to see how you articulate your opinion (i am almost agreeing with you)
I am curious to read more about this in this thread

Ok so I at least not completely crazy that I might have at least some point. Also its easier to actively think these things trough with the help of different perspectives.

 

[deleted18388141]

Ok so I at least not completely crazy that I might have at least some point. Also its easier to actively think these things trough with the help of different perspectives.

Your perspective isn t crazy
I believe that your opinion is among some other perspectives that might help make the human more human

 

[nhguy78]

I agree that there are so many genders. It doesn't become meaningless for me as much as it becomes unnecessary to emphasize. Why can't we be human wear whatever we want? Why do we need gendered clothing, restrooms, fitting rooms, etc.? I've thought about Disney a bit since I've been considering vacationing there for a while. Why aren't there glittery Mickey ears? Why is only Minnie ears fancy and special looking?

Yes, gender-based violence will always be a thing. It needs to be taken seriously. Sociopaths (?) will always find a way to commit crimes if they want to.

 

[halcyondays]

Fact is we don't need gender.

I took a bio degree forty years ago. When speaking or writing of a species we never used the word gender. We used the word sex. Animals are male, female or hermaphroditic based primarily on their gonads. Most plants have male and female flowers on the same plant often in the same flower. Bacteria are asexual--they just copy their DNA and divide. Sex is about reproduction.

My birth certificate says male. Biologically that is correct. But it's not gender.

My gender was assigned culturally. It began long before I could read with an 18th century nursery rhyme called What Are Little Boys Made Of:

Boys are snips and snails and puppy dog tails.
Girls are sugar and spice and everything nice.

I heard it a thousand times.

And there the gender stereotypes began. Girls wore dresses. Boys wore trousers. Girls had long hair. Boys short. Girls braided their hair or wore pigtails. For boys it was short back and sides. Girls decorated their dresses and hair with bows, ribbons or clips. Boys didn't. Girls were quiet & reserved. Boys were loud & boisterous.

How many times growing up did I hear adult women scold girls for not being ladylike? Even older girls scolded younger girls.

How many times growing up did I hear adult men scold boys for crying, being weak or not sucking it up? Who's a brave soldier then. Be a man. Man up.

Boys will grow up to be working dads. Girls will grow up to be mommies.

Then came adolescence and gender assignment became even more intense. Gender division sharpened dramatically. I haven't even used the words masculine and feminine yet.


It's all bullshit. Cultural and societal bullshit. Labels. Stereotypes. And all the bullshit expectations that come with them.

So are gay & lesbian stereotypes.

My culture's attempt to assign me a gender or make me assign it to others failed.


My gender is fuck gender.

 

[heinz.friedrich]

I am annoyed with the whole gender debate cause it has only created division instead of the opposite it was suppose to do. Acceptance and inclusion have never been bigger buzz words and its sad that it has partially lost their meaning like so many other words.

It is supposed to create division. It is a political concept and politics rules by the law "divide and conquer".

Identity politics is a dividing principle, because it creates separation. I dont know why the American left think if it copies identity politics from the European new right movement, they are successful and have different results.

Identity politics never worked and nations fell through it repeatedly.

You have to have unifying principles not dividing principles.

This is how you see things according to your micro entourage maybe, but gender is a huge subject in a globe where machism and payriarchy are the rulers

The rulers do not necessarily discriminate nomatter the gender. You can have more males or females in government without one gender discriminating the other.

Furthermore some feminist using patriarchy as an insult. We had regions where women earn more than men for the same job and a woman was ruling the country and they still said this is the patriarchy. They are never satisfied.

I agree that there are so many genders. It doesn't become meaningless for me as much as it becomes unnecessary to emphasize. Why can't we be human wear whatever we want? Why do we need gendered clothing, restrooms, fitting rooms, etc.? I've thought about Disney a bit since I've been considering vacationing there for a while. Why aren't there glittery Mickey ears? Why is only Minnie ears fancy and special looking?

These gender topics have no diversity. And with diversity I do not mean the American term. I mean the leaders of those topics are mainly atheist (at least where I live). But these gender topics are spiritual concepts. Ok these spiritual concept are also non-monotheistic for the most part, so religious people are not helpful either.

But if you advertise such concepts, you should look to the teaching where you appropriated it from.
You have basically two energies (male and female) and the many genders are just superpositions or a mixing of the two genders. Non-binary is just the 50-50 balance or nearly 50-50 balance of the two energies for example.

Yes, gender-based violence will always be a thing. It needs to be taken seriously. Sociopaths (?) will always find a way to commit crimes if they want to.

Yes, I agree. There are differences between males and females. That is why you cannot say everybody has the same starting point. You are somehow influenced through your genetics, although you can reread the DNA a bit in the form of epigetics.

Females and males have just different strength and weaknesses. Females have other weaknesses than males. Violence is more a negtive male energy and depression more a negative female energy ( women are more depressed than males).

If you demonize one gender, you are not only wrong, this is harmful for the society as a whole. You create a class system in which females are superior than males., so called females supremacists. And the media usually only judges males but does not judge females. Although both have equal amounts of negative and positive energy in my opinion and also according to spiritual theories where the LGBTQ stuff is stolen from (2 spirits is one example).

You can advocate that both genders should improve themselves and purify their characters and promote unifying principles. But you are disingenous if you think females are superior. This is just another system with the name matriarchy replacing patriarchy.

 

[CockMySuck]

I have wanted to talk about this topic for a while now. so lets lay down the groundwork.

I started in believing everything people were saying until recently when i went digging for different perspectives and came to the following conclusion. whether this is correct or not I am not totally sure yet but I think its worth exploring.

Why do we need gender? at this point there is so many genders that i cant even take seriously anymore.
Why isn't it enough being born a man or a woman (leaving genetic chromosomal anomalies out of it for now to simply it at least a little bit and even with those anomalies you still fall usually within 1 more than the other). with just having 2 sexes people with Sex dysphoria aka as trans people are still not excluded.

I also think gender these days is just used as a synonym for how you feel and act. How about we let a man and woman live their lives, dress and have the hobbies they want. Feeling more feminine or masculine sometimes is just human.

I am annoyed with the whole gender debate cause it has only created division instead of the opposite it was suppose to do. Acceptance and inclusion have never been bigger buzz words and its sad that it has partially lost their meaning like so many other words.

I have a really hard time to get my point across sometimes so if you need clarification on anything or want to give me counter points why we need gender I would gladly respond. This post is also not meant to be hateful or dismiss people feelings and hope we can have a civil debate/conversation.

As others have said, I think what you're saying is fair and there are many parts agree with.

In terms of division, the people causing division when it comes to gender or the ones politicizing it are outside looking in. Most people just want to live and be happy, and that's been the case forever; it's only recently that gender has become such a front page story, because people are making laws (again, like they did in the 1960s and 1970s) to limit people's gender expression, even though it doesn't have shit to do with them. Live and let live is my principle, and I think the best thing to do is to ask questions. Spend time talking people people across the gender spectrum to understand, and maybe you will see a usefulness and power that people find in gender. For some, gender seems useless, irrelevant and divisive (again, I don't see what's divisive about someone living their life and people not being okay with that – focus on the things that affect you day-to-day); for others, gender is empowering.

You pose great questions here and I think the most productive thing to do is to talk with people who are outside of the gender binary about if/why this matters to them.

 

[nhguy78]

It is supposed to create division. It is a political concept and politics rules by the law "divide and conquer".

Identity politics is a dividing principle, because it creates separation. I dont know why the American left think if it copies identity politics from the European new right movement, they are successful and have different results.

Identity politics never worked and nations fell through it repeatedly.

You have to have unifying principles not dividing principles.



The rulers do not necessarily discriminate nomatter the gender. You can have more males or females in government without one gender discriminating the other.

Furthermore some feminist using patriarchy as an insult. We had regions where women earn more than men for the same job and a woman was ruling the country and they still said this is the patriarchy. They are never satisfied.



These gender topics have no diversity. And with diversity I do not mean the American term. I mean the leaders of those topics are mainly atheist (at least where I live). But these gender topics are spiritual concepts. Ok these spiritual concept are also non-monotheistic for the most part, so religious people are not helpful either.

But if you advertise such concepts, you should look to the teaching where you appropriated it from.
You have basically two energies (male and female) and the many genders are just superpositions or a mixing of the two genders. Non-binary is just the 50-50 balance or nearly 50-50 balance of the two energies for example.



Yes, I agree. There are differences between males and females. That is why you cannot say everybody has the same starting point. You are somehow influenced through your genetics, although you can reread the DNA a bit in the form of epigetics.

Females and males have just different strength and weaknesses. Females have other weaknesses than males. Violence is more a negtive male energy and depression more a negative female energy ( women are more depressed than males).

If you demonize one gender, you are not only wrong, this is harmful for the society as a whole. You create a class system in which females are superior than males., so called females supremacists. And the media usually only judges males but does not judge females. Although both have equal amounts of negative and positive energy in my opinion and also according to spiritual theories where the LGBTQ stuff is stolen from (2 spirits is one example).

You can advocate that both genders should improve themselves and purify their characters and promote unifying principles. But you are disingenous if you think females are superior. This is just another system with the name matriarchy replacing patriarchy.

1) Where/how does embracing identity divide us? If anything not embracing
gender/sexual/cultural diversity divides us. Religion and tradition usually tells us that everyone not like us is bad. They're going to hell because they're different and won't listen to us and change.

2) Two Spirit identity isnt stolen. Two Spirit is very much a part of the 2SLGBTQIA+ community which is a community of non-heteronormative individuals. This includes gender and sexual/romantic attraction. We don't say we're better than heterosexual/heteroromantic people. We just congregate for the representation and solidarity because we've been pushed aside for so long. It's the heteronormative crowd that gets upset when we are public about our lives. (Proud asexual here)

3) No one is superior than another. Like you said we all have strengths and weaknesses. We have talents and areas to grow. It is sad that society places value in discriminatory ways. I propose that each gender calls out their own when they behave poorly - not the gender policing kind. We don't need toxic humanity.

 

[Willyboy1994]

1) Where/how does embracing identity divide us? If anything not embracing
gender/sexual/cultural diversity divides us. Religion and tradition usually tells us that everyone not like us is bad. They're going to hell because they're different and won't listen to us and change.

From my experience over categorization has always divided people instead of unify. its created more of "the other" which a lot of religions do as well and are bad for the same reason. I did grow up around the Christian religion. even had the communion but as i grew older i realized it was so divisive and hypocritical and turned my back to it.

2SLGBTQIA+

Also one thing i don't get about the lgbt+ community why cant we keep the name simple instead of making it a weird string of letters and numbers. the + already stands for the rest and if you don't want the plus people still cant agree on the 1 term it should be. which shows the division that in my opinion is heavily forming within the community. Maybe even better said its not even 1 community anymore at this point but heavily divided already.

Sadly I cant comment on the 2 spirit topic cause the only thing i know is that its something spiritual from the native Americans.

 

[P.B]

Gender is becoming a construct for the Bullshit industry. A friend recently grumbled about how many kids toys are now gendered. It made me open my eyes and realise how much "Pink shit" for want of a better word, our shops are peddling. "In my day", the big bad unPC 1980's, there were a few assumptions- that Lego and trainsets for example were PROBABLY boy-toys but I don't recall them been packaged as such, or offering pink n glittery "Princess" alternatives. I recall that my InterCity 125 trainset had a picture on the box of a brother and sister looming over it, probably fixing the inevitable derailment, I doubt the 2023 version signals that both sexes can enjoy playing trains

As for the notion that there are 72 genders (I've just read that there are now 73...), well I don't think this requires any further comment other than an emoji .

 

[P.B]

At my workplace we have fully gender neutral toilets, except one set of gender neutral toilets has urinals. Hmm'n.

 

[dreambridger]

well I'm not much of a sociological thinker but I suppose the solution would be to permit the lifestyles of those who want to live outside gender boundaries who feel more comfort there, while also not abolishing the gender dyad for those of us who prefer that dynamic in our relationships. The issue seems to be that it's forcing a decision between the two when I think that's unnecessary. Like either you have to abolish the concept of gender completely, which invalidates those of us who identify as traditional genders and want traditional gender dynamics in our relationships, or you have to abolish all alternatives and make traditional gender roles the only available options, which invalidates those who feel more comfortable in an alternative identity. I think it should be an easy compromise where no one gets left in the dust, remembering that equality can only work in both directions. Unfortunately it's turned into a hot-button us vs. them issue and nothing can be achieved that way.

I used to rant quite a bit about trans cult ideology as stuff, but with the recent bills underway it seems pretty clear that the anti-trans people are more dangerous and feeding into a Christofascist takeover of the US. So at the moment, due to the political tensions, I'll be more protective of trans lifestyles, but if we can put a stop to those insane laws, and trans people no longer become popular targets that no one can shut up about, I'll go back to voicing my scathing criticisms of queer theory.

 

[8Cylinder]

R

Fact is we don't need gender.

I took a bio degree forty years ago. When speaking or writing of a species we never used the word gender. We used the word sex. Animals are male, female or hermaphroditic based primarily on their gonads. Most plants have male and female flowers on the same plant often in the same flower. Bacteria are asexual--they just copy their DNA and divide. Sex is about reproduction.

My birth certificate says male. Biologically that is correct. But it's not gender.

My gender was assigned culturally. It began long before I could read with an 18th century nursery rhyme called What Are Little Boys Made Of:

Boys are snips and snails and puppy dog tails.
Girls are sugar and spice and everything nice.

I heard it a thousand times.

And there the gender stereotypes began. Girls wore dresses. Boys wore trousers. Girls had long hair. Boys short. Girls braided their hair or wore pigtails. For boys it was short back and sides. Girls decorated their dresses and hair with bows, ribbons or clips. Boys didn't. Girls were quiet & reserved. Boys were loud & boisterous.

How many times growing up did I hear adult women scold girls for not being ladylike? Even older girls scolded younger girls.

How many times growing up did I hear adult men scold boys for crying, being weak or not sucking it up? Who's a brave soldier then. Be a man. Man up.

Boys will grow up to be working dads. Girls will grow up to be mommies.

Then came adolescence and gender assignment became even more intense. Gender division sharpened dramatically. I haven't even used the words masculine and feminine yet.


It's all bullshit. Cultural and societal bullshit. Labels. Stereotypes. And all the bullshit expectations that come with them.

So are gay & lesbian stereotypes.

My culture's attempt to assign me a gender or make me assign it to others failed.


My gender is fuck gender.

Right! It began long before the nursery rhyme, in fact, as old as humans.

I find cultural history fascinating. Egypt had no issue with female rule, for example, and many native American tribes made men not attracted to women the spiritual leaders of their tribes, who stayed with women and did not participate as hunters or warriors.

Greek and Roman societies saw sexual fraternizing with either sex as equal, with rights based on social strata to force any with lesser rank into sex, male or female equally in ancient Rome.

Biblical kings all had eunuchs with whom they had frequent sex, while the Levite era condemned many things normal today yet allowed sex forced with slaves.

Arabic cultures (and Catholicism) condemn same sex couplings, yet rampantly practice them in total secrecy.

Let’s remember that there are no two people on this planet mentally identical, and just practice fairness.

 

[yandrsupreme]

The next generation of fem gay men and butch lesbians are being surgically converted into somene's idea of a straight person, so they can fit neatly within societies' gender stererotypes. We older gay people have greater insight into this than children do. Listen to the dissenting opinions on this issue. Many well meaning people are supporting surgical intervention for minors simply from political tribalism. In today's world, we have lost all sense of pragmatism. I understand that right wing conseratives ALSO hold this same opinion, but you also need to be able to recognize when the broken clock is RIGHT twice a day. Almost ALL of us gay people exhibited some degree of gender non conforming behaviour in childhood, children do NOT need to have tragic consequences for temporary feelings based on societal gender roles. If they want to dress and socially LIVE as the opposite sex, then support that. FULLY and 100%, just don't allow children to do anything that CAN'T BE REVERSED until age of majority is attained. Gender non conformity is what needs to be embraced, and children allowed the time and space to settle into themselves without societal and peer pressure causing them to hate their bodies.

 

[SamMann75]

Gender is real, to say otherwise makes the rest of your argument pointless as you start with a false premise.

There are people born with XX and XY chromosomes, there are 2 genders that have been labeled male and female, to say otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

Now how you want to dress, act, fuck, fall in love with... how you self-identify is a different conversation and I say if you are happy and not interfering with my pursuit of happiness then who the fuck cares?

 

[Willyboy1994]

Gender is real, to say otherwise makes the rest of your argument pointless as you start with a false premise.

There are people born with XX and XY chromosomes, there are 2 genders that have been labeled male and female, to say otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

Now how you want to dress, act, fuck, fall in love with... how you self-identify is a different conversation and I say if you are happy and not interfering with my pursuit of happiness then who the fuck cares?

I assume you have the same definition for gender as for sex which in this case you seem correct. However A lot of people do not have the same definition for both words. this is also why its important to probably define a topic before you start a conversation about it.

 

[DavidAlmeria]

Gender is real, to say otherwise makes the rest of your argument pointless as you start with a false premise.

There are people born with XX and XY chromosomes, there are 2 genders that have been labeled male and female, to say otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

Now how you want to dress, act, fuck, fall in love with... how you self-identify is a different conversation and I say if you are happy and not interfering with my pursuit of happiness then who the fuck cares?

Usually, a female baby has 2 X chromosomes (XX) and a male has 1 X and 1 Y (XY). But in Klinefelter syndrome, a boy is born with an extra copy of the X chromosome (XXY). The X chromosome is not a "female" chromosome and is present in everyone. The presence of a Y chromosome denotes male sex.
There are also people born XYY.

I don’t presume to understand any of this but maybe it is more complicated.

 

[Willyboy1994]

Usually, a female baby has 2 X chromosomes (XX) and a male has 1 X and 1 Y (XY). But in Klinefelter syndrome, a boy is born with an extra copy of the X chromosome (XXY). The X chromosome is not a "female" chromosome and is present in everyone. The presence of a Y chromosome denotes male sex.
There are also people born XYY.

I don’t presume to understand any of this but maybe it is more complicated.

Obviously that genetic defect does happen very rarely but what I don't like is how the gender studie people use it as a valid argument for all those genders to exist and how its presented to be closer to the norm than it actually is.

 

[DavidAlmeria]

Obviously that genetic defect does happen very rarely but what I don't like is how the gender studie people use it as a valid argument for all those genders to exist and how its presented to be closer to the norm than it actually is.

Fair enough…I’m no expert so I don’t have a very strong opinion