I don't believe gender is real and/or needed.

[Ficklex88]

What about Lia Thomas and veronica ivy?

Trans women are not allowed to compete unless they pass the checks set by officials that prove they have no advantage over their competitors.

Lia Thomas is currently not dominating anything. She competes on par with other women and is supported by her teammates:
Why the data shows trans swimming champion Lia Thomas didn’t have an unfair advantage
16 Thomas teammates support transgender rules

Veronica Ivy is more of the same. Her testosterone levels meet the approved standard and she shows no evidence of having unfair advantages:
Transgender Track World Champion Defends Her Human Right—To Race

 

[jd090980]

There have been no cases of men identifying as women to dominate female sports.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trans-girls-belong-on-girls-sports-teams/

Using higher testosterone levels or muscle mass measurements to disqualify stronger trans women will also disqualify stronger cis women. There is already a current trend of cis black women being disqualified from competing due to naturally high testosterone levels.

I'm regards to men trying to enter women's prisons. Opportunists will always exist, the simple solution is do a background check into a criminal's transition history before they're placed in a prison. The actions of the few should not result in innocent trans women being made vulnerable in male prisons.

The safety of cis people does not trump the safety of trans people.

First of all that is all nonsense and it has been quite some time since Scientific American actually posted something science-based. They only use that name to push ideas and then pretend it is science. Secondly, the safety of real men and women does trump trans when we are the vast majority. Also there is no need for the 'cis' addition as this was pushed by those who feel threatened that a real man and woman can simply call themselves male and female.

 

[jd090980]

Trans women are not allowed to compete unless they pass the checks set by officials that prove they have no advantage over their competitors.

Lia Thomas is currently not dominating anything. She competes on par with other women and is supported by her teammates:
Why the data shows trans swimming champion Lia Thomas didn’t have an unfair advantage
16 Thomas teammates support transgender rules

Veronica Ivy is more of the same. Her testosterone levels meet the approved standard and she shows no evidence of having unfair advantages:
Transgender Track World Champion Defends Her Human Right—To Race

The rules they have set in place are consistently criticised for not doing what they are intended to do. Once a man goes through puberty he will always have a physical advantage over women no matter how many bits get chopped off or how much testosterone is taken. There are certain things that cannot be reversed.
There is no point in littering your posts with articles as if that automatically validated your point. News outlets have plenty of reasons to push a narrative and conveniently leave out data that contradicts what they are trying to push.
Lia Thomas has been banned from competing in certain competitions for a very good reason. Not even in the top 400 when competing against been, but then identifies as a woman and goes straight to number 1. Convenient, no?

 

[Ficklex88]

The rules they have set in place are consistently criticised for not doing what they are intended to do. Once a man goes through puberty he will always have a physical advantage over women no matter how many bits get chopped off or how much testosterone is taken. There are certain things that cannot be reversed.
There is no point in littering your posts with articles as if that automatically validated your point. News outlets have plenty of reasons to push a narrative and conveniently leave out data that contradicts what they are trying to push.
Lia Thomas has been banned from competing in certain competitions for a very good reason. Not even in the top 400 when competing against been, but then identifies as a woman and goes straight to number 1. Convenient, no?

First of all that is all nonsense and it has been quite some time since Scientific American actually posted something science-based. They only use that name to push ideas and then pretend it is science. Secondly, the safety of real men and women does trump trans when we are the vast majority. Also there is no need for the 'cis' addition as this was pushed by those who feel threatened that a real man and woman can simply call themselves male and female.

Provide the contradicting data. Be the first to finally solve the trans debate.

 

[Willyboy1994]

Guys please keep it civil. that is the most important thing about this thread. I wanted to have a conversation for once without people just getting angry and throwing insults around

 

[Willyboy1994]

Lia Thomas definitely is build like a man and sadly for her that is never going to chance and will have an advantage. also i am not mad at her at all cause she followed the rules. those who made the rules were just wrong.

 

[jd090980]

Provide the contradicting data. Be the first to finally solve the trans debate, I fucking double dare you.

I think the fact that trans athletes have been banned from competing in many woman's sports if they transitioned after puberty, and that this decision was reached by professionals with far more experience in this field and far more data than anyone here should be more than enough proof.
I'll leave the posting of random links to you. But I think if you actually research properly rather than just only reading platforms and news outlets you already know will agree with what you want to be true, then you will see exactly what I am talking about.

 

[Milkdudd]

Trans women are not allowed to compete unless they pass the checks set by officials that prove they have no advantage over their competitors.

Lia Thomas is currently not dominating anything. She competes on par with other women and is supported by her teammates:
Why the data shows trans swimming champion Lia Thomas didn’t have an unfair advantage
16 Thomas teammates support transgender rules

Veronica Ivy is more of the same. Her testosterone levels meet the approved standard and she shows no evidence of having unfair advantages:
Transgender Track World Champion Defends Her Human Right—To Race

When it comes to sports, the problem with transitioning MtF is that horomone levels are far from the only difference between Men and Women. Our bone density is different, men have bigger hearts, lungs, our bodies are naturally better at physical endurance, and it takes a very long time on hrt to see any of these factors change (though things like heart size and lung capacity, to my knowledge, never will). There's a lot more to being male or female than your horomones.

For athletes like Veronica Ivory, Fallon Fox, etc. They were or would be just mediocre (not a dis, just look at Fox's record as a male athelete pre op) atheletes in the respective male divisions of the sport, so just because a MtF athelete doesn't dominate the female division doesnt mean they still dont have an unfair advantage.

I wish they could fully be how they feel in their heart, but when it comes to athletics, and the saftey of female athletes, we're just so different, it's nature.

 

[aheidla]

I think this issue can be summed up rather simply:

Gender = feminine/masculine expression or traits

Gender =/= male/female

Example: A woman can present masculine by dressing in a way that is socially typical of the males in whatever culture/region she resides but she is still a woman. She is a masculine-presenting woman. Her sex is female, but her gender is masculine. That doesn't make her a man.

To the more extreme, that same woman can take exogenous hormones and surgically remove her breasts to masculinize her phenotype and give her the appearance of a man, but she is still biologically a woman because she is an adult human female and that is the sole definition of woman.

If you were to take a doe and surgically remove her nipples and inject her with testosterone, her phenotype would change to give the appearance of a buck (more muscle mass, antlers, etc.), but she would still be a doe because she is an adult female deer.

Fun fact: A hunter actually encountered an antlered doe in the wild that he thought was a buck. She looked like a buck phenotypically due to an overproduction of testosterone, but she was still a doe. Apparently, it's rare but does occur in some whitetail deer.

 

[aheidla]

To me, Buck Angel articulates this point perfectly. He acknowledges repeatedly that he is, 100% biologically female but presents as a man to treat his mental disorder (gender dysphoria). This makes the most sense to me. He gets hate for expressing this view for some reason, though.

 

[Willyboy1994]

To me, Buck Angel articulates this point perfectly. He acknowledges repeatedly that he is, 100% biologically female but presents as a man to treat his mental disorder (gender dysphoria). This makes the most sense to me. He gets hate for expressing this view for some reason, though.

I do follow Blaire White as well and she doesnt seem to be on the same page as him

 

[999998997]

Gender is becoming a construct for the Bullshit industry. A friend recently grumbled about how many kids toys are now gendered. It made me open my eyes and realise how much "Pink shit" for want of a better word, our shops are peddling. "In my day", the big bad unPC 1980's, there were a few assumptions- that Lego and trainsets for example were PROBABLY boy-toys but I don't recall them been packaged as such, or offering pink n glittery "Princess" alternatives. I recall that my InterCity 125 trainset had a picture on the box of a brother and sister looming over it, probably fixing the inevitable derailment, I doubt the 2023 version signals that both sexes can enjoy playing trains

As for the notion that there are 72 genders (I've just read that there are now 73...), well I don't think this requires any further comment other than an emoji .

Why does anyone preoccupy themselves with enumerating "how many genders" there are? I guarantee you that not even the person with gender #67 has even heard of most of the other 72 or thought to investigate them. Gender is not enumarable, it's whatever an individual believes it is. And for most individuals that's either male or female.

 

[aheidla]

I do follow Blaire White as well and she doesnt seem to be on the same page as him

Really? They seem to agree on quite a bit from what I've seen. Maybe not so much politically, but everything else they're pretty in sync, and have collaborated on vids numerous times.

This is just one of many:

 

[Willyboy1994]

The trans topic is definitely part of the gender debate but i hope it doesnt just become all about it. trans still is just from one sex to the other and quite rare. even a lot more rare than LGB part.

Really? They seem to agree on quite a bit from what I've seen. Maybe not so much politically, but everything else they're pretty in sync, and have collaborated on vids numerous times.

This is just one of many:

ooow noo fast typing i meant does not doesnt ><
Without those people ill probably would have a huge dislike for trans people

 

[swimmerboynj]

Why are we having this debate? Who started it? I hate being called a cis male. I am gay and I am male. Being called 'cis' reminds me of HS when someone one would call me a 'sissy'. I would reply ' can a sissy do this?" They would usually end up with a broken nose and me in the principal's office. I hate that word. It triggers me Please don't change my definition and identity, just to make others more feel more comfortable. "you're no longer 'black'. How would black America feel if true indigenous Africans say that African Americans should be be referred to as 'Porter' or 'Or Mocha Latte'?

 

[Willyboy1994]

Why are we having this debate? Who started it? I hate being called a cis male. I am gay and I am male. Being called 'cis' reminds me of HS when someone one would call me a 'sissy'. I would reply ' can a sissy do this?" They would usually end up with a broken nose and me in the principal's office. I hate that word. It triggers me Please don't change my definition and identity, just to make others more feel more comfortable. "you're no longer 'black'. How would black America feel if true indigenous Africans say that African Americans should be be referred to as 'Porter' or 'Or Mocha Latte'?

Well I started the thread but the debate overall thats definitely not mine to claim. I agree it weird to ad words for the common occurrence like cis. its implied.

 

[aheidla]

The trans topic is definitely part of the gender debate but i hope it doesnt just become all about it. trans still is just from one sex to the other and quite rare. even a lot more rare than LGB part.

ooow noo fast typing i meant does not doesnt ><
Without those people ill probably would have a huge dislike for trans people

The trans topic is why there is a gender debate, at all. Back in the late 70s and 80s when androgyny was big (as well as the hair), it wasn't debated because there wasn't this push to conflate gender with biological sex. Men mimicking David Bowie's style or Prince's style still referred to themselves as men. They were just gender non-conforming.

Ironically, this trans issue has resurfaced the debate surrounding gender stereotypes (i.e.girls like pink, wear dresses, make-up and play with dolls, boys like blue, wear pants, and like sports). Young people who are just tomboy females and femme males are being classed as "trans or non-binary" when in reality, they're just gender non-conforming.

I was always, and still am, a tomboy. Sometimes I'm "misgendered" by people when they can't see my face and realize I'm a female because of how I dress and wear my hair. It was really bad years ago when I had a job that was "masculine" and required I wear hi-vis vests. Because obviously, only men work jobs that require coveralls and hi-vis vests (sarcasm). It didn't bother me, they'd always see my face, apologize, correct, and move on.

Now, you have individuals who it seems almost purposely present as their biological sex (i.e. GameStop freak out vid) and make minimal effort to appear as the opposite sex but still insist on being referred to as the opposite sex and being treated the same as the opposite sex. They're creating new language ("cis" which I can't stand and do not use, I'm just a woman, thanks) and demanding the rest of the world accommodate their identity "no matter what or how far-fetched" when the vast majority of the world simply does not function that way and for good reason.

Sorry for the rant, but this is something that does bother me quite a bit because it's getting to a point where people are being told we should normalize what are clearly biological males entering female spaces where we're at our most vulnerable (bathrooms, locker rooms, rape crisis centers, women's shelters, prisons etc.) and the consequences of building a world like that can be dangerous for women and girls. Trans people 100% do need their own spaces where they can feel safe, but not at the expense of the safety and comfort of others.

Rant over.

 

[swimmerboynj]

Well I started the thread but the debate overall thats definitely not mine to claim. I agree it weird to ad words for the common occurrence like cis. its implied.

a few years ago, I asked question, about what what trans people want to be called. I was curious and confused. A very nice person, who was trans, had said that the majority of the community just want to go on with their lives with their new identity and that they refer to themselves as their new identity be it male or female. She went on to say that the majority of the community, is embarrassed and afraid of this radical trans community with all their yelling and screaming. It was eye opening. We all just want to get along and move on with our lives. Yet the fringe groups, on all sides, just wont let that happen.

 

[John123442]

As far as I'm concerned gender and sex mean the same thing. I'm 32 years old, they meant the same thing when I was growing up and I don't change with stupid fashions.