I dont get it..how can anyone vote republican (er neo-con)??

Discussion in 'Politics' started by radicaldick, Aug 30, 2008.

  1. radicaldick

    radicaldick New Member

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    First off, i am a registered republican...I support Ron Paul. I am not promoting Democrats here either..i find blind partisanship to be counterproductive and those who engage in it simply dont think for themselves, period. Bush, Daddy Bush, and even McCain, are not true Republicans..call em neo-cons or whatever the hell you want. Not getting into abortion here..and dont give me bullshit about how Republicans = military = save me from meanies of the world. Thats just ignorant and has no basis historically or in reality(unless you are a Limbaugh zombie) but i do want to ask how (why) the "typical" American can vote for a party that does so little to help the great majority of Americans. I compared the tax proposals of McCain and Obama side by side, and they both are flawed, economists have criticised both, and neither will ever get implemented in their current form. But just for fun, lets compare(source cnn money):

    http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/?postversion=2008061113



    What Obama has done is rolled back to the previous (pre 2002) tax rates for the weathiest income brackets(about 5% of the population) and made cuts for the other 95 percent. McCain proposes leaving the 2001 Bush tax cuts intact (interesting that he was against it at the time) and give further cuts accross the board, but with the largest cuts for the wealthy, and next to nothing for the lowest income bracket. Obama propses leaving the Estate tax as is(45%), and McCain wants to cut it. Not going into details on that here, but there are so many exemptions and deductions on that tax-that rarely if ever is more than 20% tax paid and not on the full value of the estate. It affects less than 1% of the population...a total non issue and nothing more than a talking point.

    Oh, and what the hell is this?

    YouTube - Maybe

    ....well that would be yet another stupid ad from the McCain camp, and in fact an outright lie. And given who he just selected as his running mate, he has his work cut out for him. Obama No experience? Interesting selection like I said.
     
    #1 radicaldick, Aug 30, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2008
  2. radicaldick

    radicaldick New Member

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    sorry..fixed the link i think.
     
  3. SilverTrain

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    I'm always amazed at how many Americans vote against their own economic interests.

    I have to tip my hat to the GOP's success at getting so many people to buy into the "national security" arguments. Also, the recruitment of the large bloc of christian fundamentalists who have become the "values voters" was a huge coup.

    I used to think that if only everyone could be well informed in regards to the "issues" that many would realize their real interests are more aligned with what are traditionally the Dem ideals (or at least a more centrist viewpoint). But now I realize the most powerful force at play here is the "sports team" syndrome. People identify with a party*, align themselves with it, and root, root, root for the home team all the way down the line. Rational arguments become inneffective. The allegiance to the party is almost entirely unassailable, given the emotional devotion to it.

    The GOP has made great use of the tactic of denigrating "liberals", and of outright demonization of anything "liberal". Slap the liberal label on anyone or anything and nothing else need be said. Rational argument ceases. Ironic, of course, because we are one of the most "liberal" societies in earth's history. The corruption and cooption of that term has been brutally efficient. Makes me sad. But there you are.


    * I believe that many Americans find the Republicans' self-proclaimed STRENGTH identitly to be the most important issue here. Many people don't want to be associated with the "weak" Dems. Here again is an area where the GOP has had real success at crafting a marketing strategy that has worked very well. That it's an illusion need not matter!
     
  4. Flashy

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    The death tax is completely evil, no two ways about it....that would be the only reason i ever voted republican
     
  5. Deno

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    staunch conservative if just a politically correct way of saying stubborn asshole.
     
  6. B_ScaredLittleBoy

    B_ScaredLittleBoy New Member

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    I liken the presidential election to this:

    You have fallen down a very steep cliff. After a long time of falling, you manage to grab onto a ledge. But you don't have the power to lift yourself up.

    Then, two figures appear. One is John McCain, your 'ally'. The other is Obama, your 'enemy'. Your love/hate for them is based only on your traditional values/being told one is good, the other is bad.

    So you refuse the assistance of Obama. You reach out for the frail, republican hand of McCain, who you notice has G-E-O-R-G-E B-U-S-H tattooed across his knuckes.

    McCain tries to lift you up, save you from falling deeper into...whatever it is you are falling into. But his hand slips.

    As you are plummeting to your doom, you flashback to the previous encounter. You recall that Obama had a length of rope in his hand, but you were too blind to notice it.

    I hope the majority of people see the rope. I see the rope.

    Listen to what each person is saying and base your vote on that. Don't write someone off just because they're a 'D' or an 'R'.

    Obama says great things. McCain struggles to form basic words. And the words he does say either mean very little or nothing at all. Like many George Bush speeches.
     
  7. Mr Ed in Mass

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    Obama,#1 liberal in Congress-$0 in my wallet
    Biden ,#3 liberal in Congress-$0 in my paycheck
    Democratic House and Senate with promised entitlement spending that will bust this country AND a Socialist adgenda..................Priceless!
     
  8. radicaldick

    radicaldick New Member

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    More accurately..its an inheritance tax..and how so? it has no fangs dude..it affects literally one half of 1 percent of the population..the exemption is 2 million dolars. And read up on the deductions...really that tax applies to practically no one.... its an overblown talking point.
     
  9. radicaldick

    radicaldick New Member

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    meh..ok. Love Red Green though!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  10. radicaldick

    radicaldick New Member

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    Agreed about the "liberal" tag. The far left is wacky no doubt, but the far right.....scarey.
     
  11. Flashy

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    it affects and applies to me and my parents and has affected my friends...and 1 percent of the population is still part of the population, and it still hurts.

    it is a death tax, not an "inheritance tax"

    I have read up on the "deductions"...i have spent countless weeks in my family's estate tax attorney specialist, trying to figure out what the hell we are going to do, between my aged and ill 68 year old father and his business, for whom he has 40 people working for him, his home, which has increased in value 20 times over in the past 30 years. things are going to have to be sold to meet the taxes on the value of those things. It will likely mean the sale of the business, to a larger faceless corporation that he has had offers from, who will see the 40 employees as far less necessary, when much of their work can be outsourced, or done with automation.

    the fact is, when the Death Tax hits my family, it will in fact mean, death, and likely for about half the people that have worked loyally for my father, many for nearly 40 years.

    the "exemptions" don't apply to us. we are way over them, in terms of the value of the business, the value of real estate, and the value of private investments.


    so don't tell me that the death tax doesn't affect anyone till you have to deal with it.

    it most certainly is not an "overblown talking point", i assure you...

    and you should not speak on something you have no experience with.

    Due to his illness, my father's affairs have been in order for some time now, and based on the current death taxes, the results are going to be very, very painful, not just for my family, but for working people associated with my father's business.

    So just make sure you realize, when you soak the rich, sometimes, you drown the working folks too.
     
  12. mickstl

    mickstl New Member

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    Yeah, but didn't you get the memo -- your dad is evil because he has money.... (smirk...)

    The same thing goes for most of the independent farmers still out there, and a lot of small business owners.

    They just want the money to give welfare to the people who will get laid off when you have to sell your family business.

    Hope things work out well for you.
     
  13. Mr Ed in Mass

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    Or to the people who have never had a job.
     
  14. radicaldick

    radicaldick New Member

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    Sorry to hear about your father and your situation....I wish you good luck down the road dealing with this. And no I dont have any personal experience with the estate tax. But i have done research on it and there seems to be many opportunities to reduce the tax rate for those that this applies to. I believe the average tax paid for taxable estates in 2005 for example was 20%. And the exemption is scheduled to increase to 3.5 million in 2009, 7 million for married couples. I really hope you are getting good information and advice...i dont think the intent of this tax is to penalize or destroy small businesses. And as far as soaking the rich, the money it raises funds many essential programs, including health care and education. Unfortunately its going to be difficult to repeal as it would likely have a major negative impact on many less well off taxpayers. Again good luck.
     
  15. radicaldick

    radicaldick New Member

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    sorry but you are just propagating a myth...please do your homework.
     
  16. Flashy

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    thank you.

    as i have said...i don't expect people to have sympathy, but i hope alot of these soak the rich types understand, there are real people behind the "make them pay their fair share" bravado.

    people say it is only 1% of the population...true but that is still three million people...and there are alot more who are upper middle class, who used to be simply middle class, who invested, bought a home, and have saved for 30 years, who are now over the "exemption" level.

    the wealthiest 10% of this country is who it really affects, not just 1%.

    and even then, people do not seem to differentiate the fact that someone who has saved and invested their whole lives, and worked for 30 years, and has a valuable home and a generous bank account and a good six figure salary, are not as rich as Donald Trump or some person worth 100 million.


    a person that bought a home 30 years ago, for $150,000, with a mortgage, who has gradually earned more per year, put two kids through college, etc...he or she may see his home go up in value 20 times over...or more...

    maybe that person put away 20,000 a year into a savings or IRA for his retirement or for his kids...maybe that is worth $1.5 million today...

    so this "rich" person is worth $4.5 million...is he rich? perhaps compared to some...but not when the death tax hits.

    if the exemption is 2 million this person's children must still pay 45-55% on the amount over that, and that is just federal...if they live in a state live NY, the estate tax is a killer.

    Also, if a person dies, and his money is in an IRA, do you know much his dependents must pay on that? 90% tax...how is that for fair?

    so this person dies, and let's say all his money was in his IRA...his children will get only $150,000 of that 1.5 million he spent his lifetime saving and investing.

    and that house, which is now worth three million? well, the exemption being 2 million, they will have to pay an estate tax on the extra 1 million...likely a bill of around 650k.

    so guess what they have to do? you guessed it...sell the house. But first, they will have to pay the capital gains tax on the sale of the house...its value having gone from 150k to 3 million...around 360k if you are not eligible for certain exemptions. so they have around 2.64 million from the sale of the house...after paying off the capital gains taxes, they will have 2 million dollars left....plus the 150k left from the now looted IRA

    certainly nothing to sneeze at...but if your parent had spent his life saving and had 4.5 million of value to give to his kids, and even with the "generous" exemption, you wind up with 2.15 million, something is very, very wrong with that...on all levels.

    that is why, in all fairness to McCain when he said "You really aren't rich unless you have 5 million" (paraphrasing) he was exactly right.

    You have to be worth alot more these days just to survive what your government will do to you and your children.
     
  17. radicaldick

    radicaldick New Member

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    For what its worth:

    Reality: The number of small, family-owned farms and businesses that owe
    any estate tax is small — and shrinking rapidly.

    Despite oft-repeated claims that the estate tax has dire consequences for family farms and small businesses, there is in fact very little evidence that it has an impact
    on these groups. Indeed, the American Farm Bureau Federation acknowledged to the New York Times that it could not cite a single example of a farm having to be sold to pay estate taxes.
    Most recently, an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office confirmed that
    exceedingly few family farms and small businesses face the estate tax
    (CBO Finds Tiny Number Of Farms Face Estate Tax, 7/11/05 and http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/65xx/doc6512/07-06-EstateTax.pdf). The CBO report
    found that if the current exemption level of $2.0 million had been in place in 2000,
    only 123 farm estates and only 135 family-owned businesses nationwide would have
    owed any estate tax. The number of taxable farm estates would have dropped to 65
    nationwide at a $3.5 million exemption level, the level that takes effect in 2009. The
    number of taxable family-owned business estates would have fallen to just 94 under
    the $3.5 million exemption.
    The CBO report also found that of the few farm and family business estates that
    would owe any estate tax, the vast majority would have sufficient liquid assets (such as bank accounts, stocks, bonds, and insurance) in the estate to pay the tax without
    having to touch the farm or business. For instance, of the 65 farm estates that would
    have owed tax under a $3.5 million exemption, just 13 would have faced liquidity
    constraints.
     
  18. SilverTrain

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    Facts are so wonderful.
     
  19. Freddie53

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    First, who can vote Republican? Obama defined it well. Those who make $250,000 a year. Those making less had better vote Democratic.

    To Flashy:

    I USED to be for the "Death" tax. That is until the Waltons died and guess what, they paid a very small percentage of their wealth in in death taxes. It was just petty cash to them. The purpose of the death tax was to prevent the Rockefellers, Fords and Waltons from gobbling up the nation's wealth. In reality, the only people that get hard are small business people and farmers. Farmers get hit the hardest from what I understand, forced to sell the family farm. A farm has to be a certain size now to be profitable.

    So I am against the death tax since the Waltons et al don't have to pay it and the tax was intended for them, not the family farms here in my state.

    A much better way is to tax the very wealthiest on a pay as you go as they make millions of dollars instead of waiting until they die and then sock a huge tax burden on their heirs. If the tax rate is set right, there is no need to then further tax the dead.

    And while we are at it, I have problems with the gift tax if the person especially if the person receiving it is family. I understand that a business person might try giving a "gift" to an employee to get around paying social security etc. So, the IRS does need to see that these are true gifts and not really payments for work.

    I don't follow my party blindly. And I purposely did not set what I think the very rich should pay in income tax. I am just saying it should be set at a rate so that the death tax is not needed to keep a few families owning all the wealth in the nation as has happened as I understand it in Mexico. Mexico is the 10th largest economy in the world, but the money is owned by a very very few at the top. The rest of the Mexican citizens are poor, sometimes very poor.

    We can't let that happen in the USA.

    Edit: I just read another post. Let me add. The ones paying the death tax are the ones whose estates are less than ten million, usualy four to five million in all.

    Meanwhile, the ultra rich get out of paying an significant amount of tax. Since the tax was designed to keep the ultra rich from gobbling up the nation's wealth and the death tax as it stands now doesn't really tax the ultra rich, then get rid of it and tax the ultra rich's income at a rate to prevent the Walton family from eventually owning the entire economy. People whose entire estate is worth less than $10 million shouldn't have to pay any estate tax period.

    Also I am against capital gains tax on one house a person owns. A second or more houses, fine. But not the family home or most valuable home.

     
    #19 Freddie53, Aug 30, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2008
  20. Flashy

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    thank you. I appreciate that.


    i understand, but research, and actually dealing with it are two different things...as i have stated, i do not expect sympathy, since i am fortunate to be very well off myself and from a well off family, but as i was saying, there are real people behind this, and no matter how much estate planning you do, the government will still get you...you can do anything....defer income, put it in a spouse's name, put it in your kids' name...but eventually, they will get you.


    indeed the exemption does increase, and significantly, and then for 1 year it is rescinded completely, but then it reverts back to its pre-2001 status, since it is still in limbo.

    Either way, there are still many people who come out above this, inclduing farmers, small business owners, average folks who have saved and bought real estate which is increased significantly in value. etc.

    i appreciate that...don't worry we have a very brilliant estate tax attorney...but even he knows, you still have to pay the piper at some point

    true...but i don't think a horse stampede is intended to run over prairie dogs and destroy their little burrows, but it does.

    the vast majority of small business owners are these people who are wealthy and well off, but not "super rich". for example. a person who runs a small business that has sales of 5 million a year, who after everything makes a very nice salary of say 600,000 a year, pays his income taxes, saves and invests the remainder, pays his captial gains taxes on those investments etc...buys a house for say 500,000, that increases in value to say 5$ million...and whose personal investments may be worth 3 million in total, still will have big problems...

    this is a person who is "worth" 8million dollars in investments and real estate...but what about his business? Its value, would be fairly calculated at about 1 year times sales value, or $5 million dollars...

    so this person's "net worth" as a small business owner is $13 million. Indeed, this person is a fortunate and well of individual...while he is alive...but when he dies, his VALUE is destroyed...because suddenly, under the 2$ million exemption, his estate is still liable for nearly 50% (it will go to 55% federal and the exemption drops to 1 million in 2011)

    so what must his dependents do? his estate has 11 million of taxable value that must be paid. a tax bill of 5.5 billion (roughly) (this does not count the capital gains taxes he must pay on the house and the business when they are sold.... if the home he bought for 500 k that is now worth 5 million is sold, that is 900k...

    so in capital gains taxes alone, his estate owes 900k...which leaves his estate with roughly 4 million in cash from the sale of the home. 3 million in cash and investments, and a 5 million dollar business...with a 5.5 million dollar tax bill still to pay....how do you pay it?

    You must choose...do you keep the business, which can earn you 600k a year in salary? (this assumes, that you want to be part of that business...you may be a stockbroker, while your father's company sold plumbing supplies) since you cannot run the business, and your father, who owned it and built it and understood the business, is dead, what can you do? If you want to keep the business, you will have to hire and promote someone to run it, and hope he or she does as good a job as your dad...he will need to be paid, so your earnings will be less that what your dad, made...you might probably get 300k a year out of it...

    so here is the conundrum...you have a business...valued at $5 million, and you have no interest or experience in running it,... the company without its leader and founder, could earn you 300k a year if you hire or promote someone to run it....will it work? What if the guy is terrible and t he business goes under?

    you have 7 million in cash...aside from the business...you owe 5.5 million in estate taxes...what do you do?

    do you pay the estate taxes out of your liquid assets? that leaves you with 1.5 million in cash and investments, and a business valued at 5 million, that you can't or don't want to run, that earns you maybe 300-400k a year, IF it can survive with some new guy running it and without your dad, who built it from the ground up...

    if the business fails within a year or two, you wind up with only 1.5 million in cash (split that if you have a sibling or two siblings) from a 13 million dollar estate.

    so what is the smart thing to do to minimize your risk, and keep as much money as you can?

    you sell the business to cover the estate taxes. so you have 7 million in cash, you sell the business for 5 million if you can get that price, without the man who built it still running it....you must pay the capital gains tax first (a total of about 20% fed and state in NY) so you have 11 million dollars, and a total tax bill of 5.5 million...you pay the taxes, you have 5.5 million left over...the house is gone and so is the business.

    but you have 5.5 million in cash...very nice...but your dad was worth 13 million, had a home and a successfully running longtime small business, with who knows how many workers who depended on him for their lives as well (such as health care, a pension etc) who now must hope that the company who acquired your dad's company, will not lay anyone off, will not switch the company health plan to a lesser plan to save money, will manage the pension as effectively etc.


    but it is not your concern anymore, because the government took everything, and you had to make the best choices for yourself.

    is it a sob story like growing up penniless? absolutely not...but it affects many lives, not just the person's, and nothing is the same after it.

    Considering how wasteful the govenrment is most money gets lost in bureaucracy.

    look how effective those government programs are.

    that isn't an excuse for legalized theft...and the ironic thing, is in many cases, the money taken will go into the coffers to pay for the unemployment, health care assistance and public schooling, for the people and their kids who used to work for the now sold small business that they recently got laid off from...which is sadly ironic no?

    education is not the job of the federal government, it is a state issue, so the federal estate tax is useless fro that. Universal health care is not provided with the money from the federal estate tax either, so where is it going?

    with a little bit of intelligence, like a 10% tax on alcohol, and a 10% tax on legalized marijuana, you could actually eliminate the estate taxe by half, and still have tens of billions to try and craft a working universal health care system that actually works for the 30 million uninsured in this country (12 million of the uninsured are not american citizens, and as such, taking the estate taxes from US Citizens to give to non-us citizens, is absolutely criminal, and i have to believe unconstitutional in some way)


    Unfortunately its going to be difficult to repeal as it would likely have a major negative impact on many less well off taxpayers. Again good luck.[/quote]

    thank you. it is however repealed, but for one year only in 2010, after which it is reinstated in 2011 with an exemption of only 1 million and a maximum of 55%...which is simply criminal.
     
    #20 Flashy, Aug 30, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2008
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