I Dont Like the Way This Smells...

madame_zora · Jan 15, 2005

I got myself reall good and upset over this a few months ago. I had always believed it said "Thou shalt not kill", then someone pointed out the translation in greek actually was closert to "murder". If nothing we are reading can be taken seriously, then why read it at all, other than as a parable? I am very frustrated, religously, and have all but thrown out the baby with the bath water. If "holy men" can actually credibly use the Bible to support war, I want no part of it. Don't concern yourselves with dumping on me over this, I'll joyfully do my time in hell as well. Some things seem obvious to me, but I still could be wrong. The greatest wrong I can commit is to go against my own beliefs- this I will not do.

SpeedoGuy · Jan 15, 2005

I'm bumming too, Madam Zora. I was under the impression the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" was one of the few truly clear and absolute Christian strictures around. And a pretty good one too, I thought. To hear it redefined and narrowed was like having the rug pulled out from under me. It sure seems like a moral absolute is being reduced to a moral relativism.

SG

Freddie53 · Jan 16, 2005

Originally posted by madame_zora@Jan 15 2005, 08:06 PM
I got myself reall good and upset over this a few months ago. I had always believed it said "Thou shalt not kill", then someone pointed out the translation in greek actually was closert to "murder". If nothing we are reading can be taken seriously, then why read it at all, other than as a parable? I am very frustrated, religously, and have all but thrown out the baby with the bath water. If "holy men" can actually credibly use the Bible to support war, I want no part of it. Don't concern yourselves with dumping on me over this, I'll joyfully do my time in hell as well. Some things seem obvious to me, but I still could be wrong. The greatest wrong I can commit is to go against my own beliefs- this I will not do.

[post=274836]Quoted post[/post]

I understand how you feel Jana. But the beauty of the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer is that no one else can tell you how to interpret the Bible. The Quakers are Christiasn and they understand the Bible to mean they should be totaly pacifist.

Here is a test that I was taught and use. I think it will help you in understanding the Bible. If it is in the Old Testament and clearly affirmed in the New Testament then it is valid. IF it is in the Old Testament and is not clearly reaffirmed in the New TEstament, it is a "grey araa: Gray areas are where we have to come to our own conclusions as there is no clear cut command from the Bible.

Second doctrine that I especially think you Jana will appreciate and that is called the progressive revelation of God to man. The Bible is a book written by people explaining their relationship to God. The literalist don't won't to admit it, but in the early part of the Old Testament the Hebrews defintely believed in polythesism or the concept that there are many gods and not just one. The very ancient Hebrews were intent on provihg that Ya Wa or Jehovah was more powerful than the gods of their foes. Thus, the bible is a record of people discovering who God is. God is perfect throughout the Bible and his message to us is perfect. But our understanding is not. And the Bible is a record of people's relationship to God. So especially in part os the Old Testament, people's understanding of God had not reached the level tht it was later on in the Bible.

Third, I believe that everything in the Bible must be tested against what Jesus said and did. No where in the Gospels does Jesus ever endorse war. His words were if anyone slaps you on the cheek turn the other cheek. Hardly words for a General of the Army. He said to "render unto Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is Gods". In other words submit to the civil authorities. Again pacifism. Jesus was asked by his folowers on more than one ocassion to lead the army of rebillion against Rome. Jesus declined every time.

Fourth, the messge that God gave the writers was true and accurate. But our abiity to understand that is not and throurgh the years different people have added to and deleted and changed the intent through translations of the Bible. The older copies of the Bible we have are slightly different than some of the later editions. The last part of the Lord's Prayer is not in the very old trasnscripts of the Bible and thus is not recognized by the Catholic Church. "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever. Amen." It appears that those wods were added by writers later through the centuries as a doxology.

Just because the Ten Commandments means murder instead of kill does not give anyone of us the right to assume then that all killing is OK.

You mentioned murder. If a country goes to war against another country with malicious intent, I am afraid that is murder. If a country goes to war to take the oil fields of a country let's so to increase the profits of Haliburton, then that is murder. To stand at your door shoot the man that is holding your child hostage because the other choice is the kidnapper is going to kill your child is not murder.

Every time I talk to my uncle he says Bush is a murderer. That is has murdered our precious young adults in Iraq. I'm suspect my uncle is right. The deaths in Iraq were caused by malicious intent on the part of America. And Saddam was just as guilty. So Iraq is a great wasteland of murder.

I'm sorry to say that the majority of wars count as murder on the part of one side or the other or both sides.

God is a gracious God and forgives. That is why Christians who murder still enter the kingdom of God. Sin is not really acts. Sin is a condition of which we have to be cured. Sin has many symptoms and it shows up differently in different people. We are alll guilty. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. To take one sin and set it up as unforgivable is just against everything Jesus taught. Jesus said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. I believe Jesus was talking about all people of all ages when he said that. Those words weren't intended just for those Roman soldiers. Those words are the foundation of what Jesus was about.

So even our great generals can be Christians. You will find if you research history that the people who have argued the most against war have been the generals. They know what war is. They understand that real people are going to get killed. And they know that somone on one side or the other or both is about the business of murder.

And while we are on the subject of murder, when a government turns its eyes on the plight of some of its citizens and lets them die an needless death, that government is guilty of murder. It is malicious. If you know that a death is going to occur and you don't take steps to prevent it, you are guilty of murder.

It is interesting that thsoe against abortion because it is murder of unborn children usually are the same ones who are leading the charge for capital punishment. I don't think Jesus would approve of capital punishment period. For any reason.

To the issue of war being murder. when guys are called up for duty and are following the orders of their leaders, I don't think the soldeirs are guilty of murder. They are not being malicious. They are being patriotic and serving the duty to their country. But the country may be guilty of murder big time. So our troops in Iraq are innocent. But our leaders who used the excuse weapons of mass destruction knowing they wren't there are guilty of murder in the eyes of God. Not in the eyes of man though.

Some wars are justified or at least we tell ourselves that. A true pacifist will be run over. WE all know that. BUT Sweden has not been at war since the early 1800's. Even in World War II, Sweden managed a balancing act and avoided war. Not to defend Hitler at all. It is just that Sweden was such a facifist country that Germany chose not to invade Sweden.

On a debate team, if I could use the entire Bible I might could successfully debate and win the issue that the Bible clearly says that we should go to war. But if I am only allowed the use of the New Testament I am afraid my debate team is in trouble. There aren many passages in the New Testamet to use in defending war, There are some passaaages in the New Testament that clearly show Jesus as a pacifest.

There are justifications for war. But most wars are not justified. Self defense is a justification. It is usualy the one those wanting war use. I certainly as glad I don't have to decide whether a war is justified or not.

I do know that individual soldiers are not held responsible. They are submitting to the requirements of citizenship of a nation. Now, if they go beyond that at start pillaging and raping and murdering on their own, then that is a different siuation.

Life can be so complicated. War is the most complicated of all issues. When in war does killing become murder? That is also one of life's most difficult questions. We will never agree on this one.

yaoifun · Jan 16, 2005

well i dont really have a ton of paragraphs to write, but ill try to make it short and sweet. Politicians lately are uber-corrupted by money, and will stop at nothing to get what they want, and it benefits....ABSOLUTELY NO ONE! ^_^ Furthermore, i have noticed more army commercials...and considering ill be 18 soon, its not a pretty picture, because i plan to go to college, but ive also heard if you in college, you dont have to leave. Normally i wouldnt care *too* much about going to a war, but considering how incompetent our current leaders are and how impudent they might be knowing its not their lives at stake if the draft returns. Ok lets get off that tangent. Scary thought though! I also think its repulsive that politicians use the bible or other religious scriptures etc. as an excuse to go to war. Not only is it wrong, but it's also insulting in a sence. Its no better than when we say its wrong to use the Quran as an excuse for Muslims to make war, but its fine to say the bible permits it. Thats just unfair. hehe...and i said i wouldnt write a paragraph how typical- i mean unlike me...just my opinion, even if i sound like a blibbering idiot sometimes ^_^

13788 · Jan 17, 2005

Volt: You guys are getting upset over a misunderstanding. Zora, there's absolutely nothing to worry about

As Americans we are use to 1 kind of war, the war over ______ *insert oil or money here*__________.

People don't understand that there are just things as Just Wars, Holy Wars. Wars where poeple are fighting for Good so they don't Freaken ->DIE<-.

About the thou shall not kill and thou shall not murder, I use to use the word Murder but stoped because it confused people. You guys are trying to over analyse a lot of nothing. You're trying to look too deep into something so simple, that it's shallow as a puddle. And that's why I'm seeing all these people getting frustrated and ready to throw out the bible because it doesn't say what they want it to say.

example1: Oh my God, they killed Kenny!
example2: Oh my God, they murdered Kenny!

Just by reading those two, you should be able to see where I'm headed.

Another thing, The bible's actual translation is "Thou shall not MURDER", Because when 1 man murders another, man that's deep stuff, that's harsh.

<----------------SENERIO 2----------------------------->

On the other hand... Murder and Killing are two different things.

Killing: to take away life, to stop one's living.
Murder: The ->unlawful<- killing of one human by another,

To put your best freind out of his missery because his intestines are hanging out and his body is blown in 2 peices during a military raid, is different than killing someone at a bar because he called you "baboon man" and you were drunk.

It's a sin to murder someone, but with kIlling there are exceptions. I know poeple don't like to hear this but Welcome to the REAL WORLD, ACCEPT the fact that there are people on Earth that we cannot afford to let live. Osama Bin Laden, is one of them and he's a great example.

I'm talking about Capital Punishment by the way. If we get together as a poeple and all decide that this person cannot be left alive for the sake of the world, to kill 1 man and save 6 billion. God understands that. That is not exactly murder, it's killing. It's death.

During 9/11, there was a plane heading towards the twin towers. You don't know it but somewhere along the line a guy had to decide weather or not to risk the plane crashing into a public building and killing thousands + the people on board or to Sacrafise the plane and the poeple on board to save thousands of other people on the ground. In the real world God understands that poeple die, and that's due to our decisions that we can't help, he is understanding and very forgiving. He knows that sometimes there's no safe way out and someone must be sacrafised.

If you killed someone in self defense, dude, that's NOT murder. You are exempt from punishment by God's law. So you see man, God isn't here to attack you or lock you up in a room. His law is very open, it's the poeple who don't understand, they limit his judgement. They limit his awsomeness.

btw, this is NOT a bible war, this is an elegant conversation, you guys should head over to a christian forum just to take a look, 2 things will happen, you'll find a forum with close-minded hypocrite christians and think all christians are like this, or, you'll find a good forum and it'll change your life.

<-----------------------------About what Freddie53 said--------------------------->
I do agree with a ton that he said. When we're talking about capital punishment on the Government level, I don't think jesus would support that. Then again, it's a case by case basis.

If a man kills 2,000 poeple, gets put in jail gets out, kills more poeple, I'd say it's time for him to go. He's had his chance, all choices come with consequences. Sucks to be him.

<<<<His words were if anyone slaps you on the cheek turn the other cheek<<<<< historical evedance shows his is a gesture rather than a commandment, but the thing is, if you feel it's a commandment, awsome for you. Then again God did say "I will strike down your enemies" .

The problem with all of us is that we're trying to take God's Decisions (which are very Case by Case) and put them into a form of "syntax". (example: if a=b and b=c, then a=c.) with God... That's not always true. That's why the bible is 66 books, written by over 20 different poeple over a time period of a thousand or 2 years. Because God wants to show us examples of Many poeple from all walks of life. Not just one guy who claims to be "right".

<<<<<That is why Christians who murder still enter the kingdom of God<<<<<
I wouldn't always be sure of that. If they murdered before then repented etc... yes I'll agree. But Don't think one can just say "i love jesus" and mean it and get away with anything.

"it's appointed unto all men that after death comes the judgement." this means we ALL get judged. It doesn't mean all christians please step to the right, show your ID card, and welcome to heaven. And all non-christians are going to hell. The bible is very clear that everyone is judged. For everything. So it's fair.

sorry for the horrible spelling, I'm a student at Full Sail, I've got classes from 9am-5pm, next day 5pm-1am, so i'm very busy

madame_zora · Jan 17, 2005

Volt, first of all, you are right, this is not a religous forum, and hopefully an elegant conversation. I am frustrated with my understanding of the Bible right now, and for many reasons. This was just a kind of "straw that broke the camel's back". I don't believe in "Holy wars" at all, and as for "just wars", I certainly don't feel that we are in one at the present time. This is the frustration I feel- that people are using the Bible to justify something that is very clearly about oil and money. To their credit, many of the Christians who support this war are oblivious to the true reasons for it, albeit through self-imposed ignorance. Dubya is about self-interest, first last and always. I'm sorry that people don't see him for what he is, he will be revealed for the trecherous snake he is in time, but not before his damage is deep and to the core of our nation. The fact that he is using the good intentions of "Christians" to feed his army is as repulsive as the word "God" on his lips when he talks about this war. It's blasphemous and disgusting, neither God nor Jesus ever supported killing another for monetary gain.

He doesn't care about the religous right's views, he doesn't care about gay marriage, he doesn't care about the right to bear arms (whether or not to form a state militia). He only cared about wining the race and the autonomy it would give him. He won. Not fair or square, but there he sits, his smug attitude a slap in the face to every disenfranchised voter in our nation, I'm one of THEM. He said recently he will not pursue an amendment to the constitution prohibiting gay marriage, what did I tell you a few months ago? He never gave a rats' ass to begin with, it was just something he said so that the Christians would think he cared about their causes. He duped them all. Same with the NRA, poor bastards aren't going to get any help at all from him now that he got what he wanted via their votes. He doesn't care about abortion, I doubt anything at all will come of all the hububb he created, he just wants to keep us upset about these little issues to help divert our attention away from what's really going on- he and his cronies getting FAT RICH off of this war. He doesn't care about the "poor Iraqi citizens", he doesn't give a fuck about our own poor, so why would he? He just knows he has to appear compassionate for the stupid citizens of the US to support his war effort. He duped enough of us to get his way. Shame on us all. That the Bible is being brought into this by such an unholy man is revolting, to say the least, and not at all in character with the teachings of the New Testament. This is killing for profit, murder if you will, and it makes me sick and ashamed. I'm glad I feel that way, may my bullshit filters never wear out.

yaoifun · Jan 17, 2005

I totally agree with you zora. It's disgusting whats being done to the country by Mr. W. I hate to admit it but i liked him at first, he seemed kind of laid back...then i realized he was a total moron with the "im cool as school" attitude but in reality everyone else was "trying" to do his dirty work. I personally am uncomfortable with a leader who has an IQ of a frozen yogurt (a melted one at that) and is now, that his second term is safe, giving america a run for its money (literally&#33

and breaking all his promises for most everything, and fighting a meaningless war, which was also a broken promise of staying so long. but...there is a silver lining in this cloud...as long as he doesnt amend the two term limit, hes out in 4 years. I also found something online ages ago...here it is if you want to see it http://www.ebolaworld.com/mainpage02.html (click bushs face, then click the more button and the first episode is "that's dubya") Thought you might find it amusing (or anyone for that matter) half of my family is republican, and they even laughed. If it offends anyone, sorry, it's just meant to be funny! Well i hope you and everyone else for that matter enjoys it. Kinda makes a joking light out of everything wrong with the government. Lets just enjoy the rollercoaster ride.

madame_zora · Jan 18, 2005

Originally posted by yaoifun@Jan 18 2005, 03:33 AM
I totally agree with you zora. It's disgusting whats being done to the country by Mr. W. I hate to admit it but i liked him at first, he seemed kind of laid back...then i realized he was a total moron with the "im cool as school" attitude but in reality everyone else was "trying" to do his dirty work. I personally am uncomfortable with a leader who has an IQ of a frozen yogurt (a melted one at that) and is now, that his second term is safe, giving america a run for its money (literally&#33 and breaking all his promises for most everything, and fighting a meaningless war, which was also a broken promise of staying so long. but...there is a silver lining in this cloud...as long as he doesnt amend the two term limit, hes out in 4 years. I also found something online ages ago...here it is if you want to see it http://www.ebolaworld.com/mainpage02.html (click bushs face, then click the more button and the first episode is "that's dubya") Thought you might find it amusing (or anyone for that matter) half of my family is republican, and they even laughed. If it offends anyone, sorry, it's just meant to be funny! Well i hope you and everyone else for that matter enjoys it. Kinda makes a joking light out of everything wrong with the government. Lets just enjoy the rollercoaster ride.

[post=275248]Quoted post[/post]

Well, that was worth the price of admission. Pretty funny stuff, in a hauntingly sad way. *grabs big bag of chips and settles in for next four years*

13788 · Jan 18, 2005

carolinacurious:

Furthermore, i have noticed more army commercials...and considering ill be 18 soon, its not a pretty picture, because i plan to go to college, but ive also heard if you in college, you dont have to leave. Normally i wouldnt care *too* much about going to a war, but considering how incompetent our current leaders are and how impudent they might be knowing its not their lives at stake if the draft returns.

The army commercials don't bother me (any more than they always have). Reforming the draft boards is a much bigger concern. As for college, by all means go, but as far as deferments, that was LAST time, all signs are that IF they re-institute the draft college won't save your ass.

If I was your age I would take a VERY keen interest in politics! By the time the news (of the draft (IF - big IF)) hits your local paper (or CNN) it will be too late to go to Canada. They know that if they re-instate the draft that many, many more will run than last time. I suspect that they suddenly won't care so much if you're gay either!

Anyway, there should be no need for the draft. They should be able to easily find 59 million idiots just rarin' to go!

Freddie53 · Jan 18, 2005

Originally posted by Volt@Jan 17 2005, 05:19 PM
<<<<<That is why Christians who murder still enter the kingdom of God<<<<<
I wouldn't always be sure of that. If they murdered before then repented etc... yes I'll agree. But Don't think one can just say "i love jesus" and mean it and get away with anything.

"it's appointed unto all men that after death comes the judgement." this means we ALL get judged. It doesn't mean all christians please step to the right, show your ID card, and welcome to heaven. And all non-christians are going to hell. The bible is very clear that everyone is judged. For everything. So it's fair.

sorry for the horrible spelling, I'm a student at Full Sail, I've got classes from 9am-5pm, next day 5pm-1am, so i'm very busy

[post=275141]Quoted post[/post]

Thanks for the compliment. You clarified many things and I agree wiht much of what you said. My statement All Christians who murder will enter Heaven needs to be read clearly. The second word is Christians. Chrsitian means Christlike. Murder is a sin. Well yes, so is telling a little tinsy winsy lie. Now the consequences for other humans on this earth are great, but both of these acts concern a basic problem. The word sin really has two meanings. One is the simple one. Breaking a law. But Sin also refers to the disease that permeates the entire soul of a man. Christianity is about that disease. The word sin means separation from God. If we get too hung up on individual acts of breaking a law then no one will enter heaven. All have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord. is the quote. So, Christianity is about restoring the relationship of a human being with God. God does the perfecting, not us. Yes, there is a judgement. But don't get to hung up on it being way out there in the future. It is going on as we speak. The judgement is more like the time of sentencing. When you die, the record is already there. The judgement is the formal time to appear before God.

Jesus is about restoring man's relationship to God. According to the New Testament, on the cross all sins were forgiven except one and that is rejection of God or Jesus. We don't make ourselves perfect God does. So we submit to Him, sure we will make some mistakes and that may include murder, but if we continue walking in his path in God's time, not ours we will be made perfect. The word perfect means complete.

To reject God's attempt to reconcile you with Him, that is where the judgement comes in. That is the fatal flaw that keeps you out of Heaven.
And only God can make that judgement. Only God knows your soul.

In the Old Testament it was about the Law. In the New Testament it is about Grace. I have been asked if Jewish people will go to Heaven. Sure they will. They are under the law and are judged under the law. They are still the chosen people by God and that has never changed. Christians are under grace the unmerited, undeserved gift of salvation that is to be accepted or rejected. Jesus said once that other people would know him by other names. I don't fully understand that. I do believe that every person is given a chance to go to heaven. I didn't say everyone would go. That is not my call. But God does give every human being a chance at salvation. If God didn't how could we say he is a just and merciful God?

And please don't read into this the heresy that the more you sin the more you get grace or the heresy that since you are under grace it doesn't matter at all what you do. Salvation is a journey not an event. Buying the ticket without getting on the train will not get you there. Being confirmed, baptised, joining the church, getting saved: whatever you want to call it is just the ticket. You have to get on the train too and that is having a relationship with God. You may do some terrible things while riding on the train, but sooner or later, if you stay in God's presence, your behavior will also change. But not necessarily overnight. It is a lifeitme process completed by God at death. Then and only then will you be made complete and being complete is perfection in the likeness of God.

And this is the Christian understanding of God as I see it. Far be it for me to judge people and where they will spend eternity. All I know is if they have a personal and good relationship with God they have it made in the shade. And it really doesn't matter what label they wear or what the official doctrine of their religion is. All of that fades away. In the end it is about God, not us.

Freddie53 · Jan 18, 2005

Originally posted by madame_zora@Jan 17 2005, 10:09 PM
[post=275239]Quoted post[/post]

I made my post before I read this one. My hat is of to you. You told it as it is. The gay amendment was hatched as a campaign ploy. I read once who the guy was that came up with it. I'm sorry but the right wing of the Republican Party has a long record of doing just that going back to Joe McCarthy of the 1950's. He used communism for personal and political gain.

You have a very clear understanding of the New Testament. Just remember the New Testament said there would be false prophets. Well we know who one of them is. Did I say anything about a bush? No this is not the same one as the burning bush that Moses encountered. That one was for real. Now we have the imposter. I don't think God will have anything to say through this bush.

Freddie53 · Jan 18, 2005

Originally posted by yaoifun@Jan 17 2005, 10:33 PM
I totally agree with you zora. It's disgusting whats being done to the country by Mr. W. I hate to admit it but i liked him at first, he seemed kind of laid back...then i realized he was a total moron with the "im cool as school" attitude but in reality everyone else was "trying" to do his dirty work. I personally am uncomfortable with a leader who has an IQ of a frozen yogurt (a melted one at that) and is now, that his second term is safe, giving america a run for its money (literally&#33 and breaking all his promises for most everything, and fighting a meaningless war, which was also a broken promise of staying so long. but...there is a silver lining in this cloud...as long as he doesnt amend the two term limit, hes out in 4 years. I also found something online ages ago...here it is if you want to see it http://www.ebolaworld.com/mainpage02.html (click bushs face, then click the more button and the first episode is "that's dubya") Thought you might find it amusing (or anyone for that matter) half of my family is republican, and they even laughed. If it offends anyone, sorry, it's just meant to be funny! Well i hope you and everyone else for that matter enjoys it. Kinda makes a joking light out of everything wrong with the government. Lets just enjoy the rollercoaster ride.

[post=275248]Quoted post[/post]

I knew I liked you on your first post. Now I know why. What a way with words. Man. Is that natural or did you have a wonderful creative writing teacher?

jonb · Jan 18, 2005

"If it offends anyone"? Hell, the people who support Dubya have practically deified him as the Second Coming. How could it offend anyone?

One of the big problems we have is 24-hour news: Let's say a Republican says the square root of 25 is 6. Fox News will say it's 6 (and probably accuse us fivers of being pedophiles or something equally disgusting), while the rest will hold a debate as to whether it's 5 or 6. But the square root of 25 will always be 5; it just happens our education is so horrible (thanks to those same Republicans) that almost half of Americans don't know what a square root is.

madame_zora · Jan 19, 2005

Well, ignorant people are so much easier to control. Look at how obviously botched the election was, and no one's doing anything about it. Look at how sad his performance was on the debates, but faux news just reported him as being brilliant and people bought it. He not-so-cleverly diverted our attention from Afghanistan to Iraq with no ceremony, and many Americans believe with all their hearts (where the fuck are their brains??) that we're there to fight terrorism! Yes, we are a nation of the stupid, it's high time we fall on our face.

13788 · Jan 19, 2005

Herble:

Originally posted by madame_zora@Jan 19 2005, 08:43 AM
Well, ignorant people are so much easier to control. Look at how obviously botched the election was, and no one's doing anything about it. Look at how sad his performance was on the debates, but faux news just reported him as being brilliant and people bought it. He not-so-cleverly diverted our attention from Afghanistan to Iraq with no ceremony, and many Americans believe with all their hearts (where the fuck are their brains??) that we're there to fight terrorism! Yes, we are a nation of the stupid, it's high time we fall on our face.

[post=275609]Quoted post[/post]

BUSH SUCKS DONKEY DICK!! :excl:

Freddie53 · Jan 19, 2005

Originally posted by Herble+Jan 19 2005, 08:45 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Herble @ Jan 19 2005, 08:45 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Jan 19 2005, 08:43 AM
Well, ignorant people are so much easier to control. Look at how obviously botched the election was, and no one's doing anything about it. Look at how sad his performance was on the debates, but faux news just reported him as being brilliant and people bought it. He not-so-cleverly diverted our attention from Afghanistan to Iraq with no ceremony, and many Americans believe with all their hearts (where the fuck are their brains??) that we're there to fight terrorism! Yes, we are a nation of the stupid, it's high time we fall on our face.

[post=275609]Quoted post[/post]

BUSH SUCKS DONKEY DICK!! :excl:

[post=275616]Quoted post[/post]

[/b][/quote]
Herble, we just want to know we love you and will be thinking about you. I hope you get to read this before Homeland Security comes and takes you away in shackles. And dammit, you never got to test drive me. Saying such things as you just did supports the terrorists. You have one of those weapons of mass destruction. You know where they all are. Zora has them all stored in the pile. Each man is given the same err, well a similar weapon to store and maintain. She checks each weapon herself each day. Zora wants to make sure each weapon is ready to fire at a moments notice. It is a big job for Zora, but she is up to it. Zora can tell you witch weapons are up and ready and which ones are down for err, umm reloading..Each weapon has to be fired regularly.

Zora has some of the best weapons of mass destruction. Just ask her soldiers. They will tell you.

WE will miss you Herble. Tell John ASScroft we said hello. Be careful how you shoot your weapon around John ASScroft. Mr. ASScroft is up in years now. WE don't want him to have heart attack do we?

We will miss you. Enjoy your stay as a political prisoner in the good old US of A.

Your dear friend and co-patriot,
Freddie

*Don't worry about Ashlar. We will see that he is taken care of. We already hae several volunteers.*

jonb · Jan 19, 2005

Asscroft's been replaced by Abu Gonzalez. I honestly didn't think anyone could be worse than Asscroft, but Bush found a way . . .

Oh, and kudos to Barbara Boxer during Rice's appointment. Should we even call it balls when the only Senate Democrat with any is a woman?

13788 · Jan 20, 2005

Volt: to Freddie53

Foe Show, Amen. I totally agree and I love the "buy the ticket, get on the train" idea. Very true very true.

to Zora

about Holy Wars -> I mean like when country A is a good country with good poeple who have done nothing wrong. And country B goes and attacks country A for no reason what-so-ever. Thus the popele in country A must defend themselves or Die.. this is a Just War. A war where people are literally fighting for their lives, even though they've done nothing wrong.

God would defanatly support Country A. They have no choice, they must fight or die, I beleive the War against Nazi Germany was a Holy War. If we didn't fight, the world would be a very evil place right now. Sometimes we don't have a choice, we can't run away, or "walk away from the fight", becuas it'll get worse and follow us. If we didn't fight Nazi Germany. There would be much evil in the world today, much evil.

And about GWBush... LOL, he's the kind that knows nothing about God, but to win the hearts of the poeple puts a bible under each arm (as if he could read it, let alone understand the first sentance) and pretends to be from God and makes us beleive that God supports his actions.... it's sad.

Most americans are like Sheep. They are so use to livng in a fantasy world where the US government is fair and Just. And has no flaws and is "for the people by the people" 99% of american's don't even know that America's Currency is all owned by a private COrperation.

That's right, Our money is from (loaned) by the Federal Reserve Bank. Which is a private corp. America doens't make or control it's own money. Kennedy tried to return the control of the money back to the US government but was assasinated. Only a few hundred bills were printed without "federal reserve note" printed on them. Instead they had something like "United States public note" or something like that. but that's extremely rare.

But yes, American's treat their president as if he were God, they don't judge nor question him and his actions. Which is funny cuz only a few hundred years ago we sacraficed thousands of men and boys so we could be freed from the King of england. Only now instead of a King. we call him President, He has more power than the king really...Prez can do whatever he wants, and the poeple, like sheep, blindly follow him and support his actions.

jonb · Jan 20, 2005

The whole "just war" concept is dangerous; basically, every war Americans have ever fought apparently was a "just war". Personally, I have fun asking right-wingers exactly at what point Iraq -- or any other country in that region other than Israel -- attacked us. (Israel once attacked the Liberty, an American vessel. Both countries insist it was an error, but the U.S. just considers Israel a potential foothold in the region, and Israel knows better than to attack the only pro-Israel state on the planet. Survivors, observers, and then-CIA director Richard Helms say the attack was premeditated.) No, private citizens attacked us on September 11, none of them from Iraq.

madame_zora · Jan 20, 2005

I guess that's my problem with "just wars", it is usually a specific person or group of people causing the damage, not the country as a whole. Yes, Hitler certainly had to be stopped, no question about it, but I wish we would focus dorectly on the perpetrator and not the whole country. Same with Bin Laden- I had no problem with taking him out and dismantling his franchise, but why blow up the whole country? And now, why the fuck are we in Iraq? Oh yeah, there's money to be made there.

Oh, and Americans are only sheep when a repub is the Prez, who can control the media and therefore their minds. Most don't take the time to consider the implications of what's going on, they just believe what the tv tells them to believe. I still remember how many people got truly incensed about Clinton's bj before they finally got to a point of media overload and realised they didn't really care about it. Most never did get back around to considering his performance as Prez. the rest of the time, it's a shame so many are so weak.

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