I HATE gay pride !!!

D_Tim McGnaw

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I have supported gay causes like the Trevor Project, Project Open Hand and am proud to be an out of the closet and honest gay man yet I still feel little or no affinity to the urban gay culture that revolves around sex. I don't feel gay liberation movement and gay urban culture are expressly linked because I participate in gay liberation yet not in the gay urban culture.


But because you don't participate in urban Gay culture and don't feel any affinity to it doesn't mean you can't participate in Pride, and presumably it doesn't mean that you should necessarily resent others for participating in Pride (or the event itself) whatever cultural affinities they may have.... right?
 

Bbucko

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And the other times you want to strangle me? :tongue:

The thought's crossed my mind once or twice :rolleyes:

It's probably because I've never given much credence to those who say that someone's motive for hating America, Islamist terrorists, for instance, is that "they hate our freedom". That's the kind of nonsense that would've come out of the mouth of George W. Bush. I detested GWB.

I'm unclear what made you think Hilly's anything like a conservative; in most political matters he falls as far as I do in the opposite direction. I may be wrong, but I think you misinterpreted a joke.

FWIW, by the time GWB left office, most everyone in the world breathed an audible sigh of relief: I know I did. He did more damage to the gay community than any other president, period, and that's the very least of his misdeeds.
 

earllogjam

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But because you don't participate in urban Gay culture and don't feel any affinity to it doesn't mean you can't participate in Pride, and presumably it doesn't mean that you should necessarily resent others for participating in Pride (or the event itself) whatever cultural affinities they may have.... right?

Yes, I have no animosity towards guys who choose to be active in the urban gay sex culture.

However, the pride events like the parade, at least in San Francisco, are more a reflection of the broad variety of gay people and NOT just the gay urban sex culture as seems the case in Cologne.

Sure there are dance club floats with almost naked guys on them dancing to house beat blaring from speakers, and a very aging contingent of scantily clad overweight leathermen, but there are far more marchers and groups that don't reflect or are a part of the gay urban male sex culture.

The variety and diversity is staggering. Everything from gay firemen to gay doctors without borders. And the number of children marching this year with their gay parents was phenomenal. I suspect that just judging by the parade that most gay men and women are NOT part of that gay urban male culture of Castro St. but rather well adjusted and integrated into the straight world and have continued many of the straight values they grew up with. Perhaps there is not a great need to flaunt their sexuality overtly today as we have gained some sort of acceptance from straight society.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Yes, I have no animosity towards guys who choose to be active in the urban gay sex culture.


I'm not sure why you refer to it as "sex culture" but I suppose I take some of your point, but I respect that you don't bear any animosity towards those who choose to live differently to you.

However, the pride events like the parade, at least in San Francisco, are more a reflection of the broad variety of gay people and NOT just the gay urban sex culture as seems the case in Cologne.

That's exactly what Dublin Pride was/is like. Indeed any Pride event I'm familiar with is like that, and we should caution that we only have a single (self admittedly rather prejudiced) person's word that Cologne Pride is any different.



The variety and diversity is staggering. Everything from gay firemen to gay doctors without borders. And the number of children marching this year with their gay parents was phenomenal. I suspect that just judging by the parade that most gay men and women are NOT part of that gay urban male culture of Castro St. but rather well adjusted and integrated into the straight world and have continued many of the straight values they grew up with. Perhaps there is not a great need to flaunt their sexuality overtly today as we have gained some sort of acceptance from straight society.



So to reject norms and choose to live in an alternative manner to that prescribed by culturally dominant majorities is maladjusted in your view?

I would have thought an American of all people would celebrate that any healthy society has an abundance of different ways of life, and that people who choose a different mode of life (whatever that mode of life may be) to that which is prevalent are pioneers who should respected for being a part of the engine of cultural innovation which renews and strengthens a society?


I don't know what "straight values" are, can you enlighten me? Mind you I'm not aware of the existence of Gay values, and if they exist what they consist of...


Acceptance and integration are terms loaded with a variety of unpleasant implications. My right to live freely and equally and in diginity with everyone else is not in the gift of social acceptance or conditional upon my integration (which is to say camouflage) in some kind of socially acceptable guise. My right to live freely and equally and with dignity are mine as a human being, the only precondition that exists for recognition of these rights is my humanity, every human being on earth has these rights completely regardless of what others think of how they live, how they dress, whom they sleep with, what sex they are, what gods they worship, what colour their skin is, what ethnicity they are etc.

Where a society refuses to recognise people in these rights, either through systematic governmental discrimination or social and cultural pressure of an informal interpersonal nature that society is failing in its basic duty to respect the essential humanity of all of its people.

I have no interest in being accepted, or integrating as preconditions for my diginity, liberty and equality to be respected.

Whether or not I conform with a culturally dominant archetype or not, if you refuse to offer me respect as a human being then you have denied and insulted the most important common characteristic we share; our humanity.
 
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earllogjam

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I'm not sure why you refer to it as "sex culture" but I suppose I take some of your point, but I respect that you don't bear any animosity towards those who choose to live differently to you.

That's exactly what Dublin Pride was/is like. Indeed any Pride event I'm familiar with is like that, and we should caution that we only have a single (self admittedly rather prejudiced) person's word that Cologne Pride is any different.

So to reject norms and choose to live in an alternative manner to that prescribed by culturally dominant majorities is maladjusted in your view?

I would have thought an American of all people would celebrate that any healthy society has an abundance of different ways of life, and that people who choose a different mode of life (whatever that mode of life may be) to that which is prevalent are pioneers who should respected for being a part of the engine of cultural innovation which renews and strengthens a society?

I don't know what "straight values" are, can you enlighten me? Mind you I'm not aware of the existence of Gay values, and if they exist what they consist of...

Acceptance and integration are terms loaded with a variety of unpleasant implications. My right to live freely and equally and in diginity with everyone else is not in the gift of social acceptance or conditional upon my integration (which is to say camouflage) in some kind of socially acceptable guise. My right to live freely and equally and with dignity are mine as a human being, the only precondition that exists for recognition of these rights is my humanity, every human being on earth has these rights completely regardless of what others think of how they live, how they dress, whom they sleep with, what sex they are, what gods they worship, what colour their skin is, what ethnicity they are etc.

Where a society refuses to recognise people in these rights, either through systematic governmental discrimination or social and cultural pressure of an informal interpersonal nature that society is failing in its basic duty to respect the essential humanity of all of its people.

I have no interest in being accepted, or integrating as preconditions for my diginity, liberty and equality to be respected.

Whether or not I conform with a culturally dominant archetype or not, if you refuse to offer me respect as a human being then you have denied and insulted the most important common characteristic we share; our humanity.

By "straight" values, I'm referring to values we have been taught and learned in socializing children in a straight family and society. Most gay men were raised in straight families and continue to embody and live by those values taught to us by our parents. It is different from the gay values and activities surrounding sex and the pursuit of sex. My parents didn't teach me to snub unattractive men nor how to party and play.

I posted this in a previous thread a few years ago. I'm older than you and have been out of the urban gay loop for about 20 years now so some of these comments may not apply anymore but they were my experiences and feelings at the time.

There are many neighborhoods within cities where gays have created their own communities - the Castro, Chelsea, Boystown, WeHo, Hillcrest, South Beach, Provincetown....etc. and a gay culture has developed. These concentrations of gay men have led the way for gay rights, visibility and gay consciousness but there is another side that isn't so desirable. The "culture" is an exclusionary culture of sex, and all the empty superficiality and petty discrimination that goes along with it. Racism, "lookism" and ageism are pervasive within these communities where sex is the primary reason for being.

I have found many gay men become victims of this culture and the cult of beauty. They often are over sexed, over drugged, over gym toned, over surgically enhanced, and over accessorized in the pursuit of trying to fit in and attact sexual partners. Many enjoy this culture and find it fulfilling. I unfortunately do not. I don't have much in common with my gay city cousins. Although I have been happily active in gay organizations I never was a part of this culture nor care to be. I think most gay men in this country live outside this culture by their choosing or grow out of it because it ultimately isn't who they really are. Some adopt it wholeheartedly.
I suppose I should clarify what I meant by "gay culture" - it is everything in the gay community that revolves around the pursuit of sex. It includes all the fashions, boutiques, attitudes, sexual cliques, bars, clubs, gyms, tanning salons, day spas, dance clubs, and gay newspapers and magazines all which feel off each other. Surprisingly it isn't very different from city to city or from country to country for that matter.

It is a culture based solely on sex and the pursuit of sex. So naturally it creates and perpetuates its own value system based on superficial things like looks, age, race, dick size...etc. It tends to exclude straight people and divides gay men into meat types, twinkmeat, bearmeat, musclemeat, blackmeat, asianmeat, leathermeat..etc. So it is not at all inclusive or generous. It is a culture that's held together by sexual attraction. Ironically that glue that holds us together is the same glue that keeps us apart.

I do, however, respect it and I am glad it's there because it has given me a lot of freedoms as a gay man, a place to play and has carved out a niche for us in society, but I've come to realize, especially getting older that it's not a very nurturing or fulfilling place. And after realizing that sex wasn't the most important thing in my life, the culture had very little to offer.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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By "straight" values, I'm referring to values we have been taught and learned in socializing children in a straight family and society. Most gay men were raised in straight families and continue to embody and live by those values taught to us by our parents. It is different from the gay values and activities surrounding sex and the pursuit of sex. My parents didn't teach me to snub unattractive men nor how to party and play.


I wasn't aware that whatever these values are they're universally taught by heterosexual parents, but I'm fairly certain most young men get no specific advice from their parents on how to be a healthy and happy adult Gay male, because in most cases parents start with the presumption that their children will be straight and prepare themselves and their children for life with that in mind.

If some Gay men grow up with a less than healthy attitude towards love and sex I would have thought that this lacunae in most heterosexual parent's knowledge and rearing that has at least something to do with it. I mean if you place so much store in how parents prepare their children for adult life that is.





I suppose I should clarify what I meant by "gay culture" - it is everything in the gay community that revolves around the pursuit of sex. It includes all the fashions, boutiques, attitudes, sexual cliques, bars, clubs, gyms, tanning salons, day spas, dance clubs, and gay newspapers and magazines all which feel off each other. Surprisingly it isn't very different from city to city or from country to country for that matter.


Forgive me for saying so, but I don't know many young heterosexual people who don't frequent boutiques, dress with fashion in mind, patronise clubs and bars (where they intend to pickup casual sexual partners), use gyms and salons of various kinds, and otherwise spend large amounts of time, energy and money in attempting to make themselves sexually attractive to members of the opposite sex. If we're talking about sexual cliques then I hate to tell you this but straight people have Gays beat hands down when it comes to kink and perversion. Mainstream magazines and media are obsessed with celebrity, superficiality, sex, and consumption. I'm also pretty certain that plenty of heterosexual people feel excluded and marginalised on the basis that they don't fit this prevailing set of requirements and do not share these interests.


I guess I'm just struggling to see where what you define as gay sex culture is significantly different in any respects from the prevailing sexual culture of most developed western societies.
 
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TomCat84

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I would respond to earlogjam, but hilaire has done a good job of refuting most of his baseless assertions. In my experience, the only people who use some of the terms he's using, i.e. sex culture, are people who are turned down most of the time for sex. Do I have problems with the gay dance clubs? Yes. I think many gay men have what I call a Peter Pan syndrome. 40 something year old men tweezing their eyebrows to death, still out dancing shirtless and chasing 20 something twinks, doing botox, etc. It's akin to the fake boobed plastic surgery culture among many wealthy housewives. However, I'm intelligent enough to figure out that there are MANY facets of the gay community, including jocks, which I'd like to think I mostly hang out with. Men who work out, play sports, drink beer during the day, but are in bed at decent times. Is the gay community sex based? Perhaps, but I think that's purely a function of biology. It's two dudes, not a dude and a girl- it's not the same dynamic.
 

earllogjam

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I guess I'm just struggling to see where what you define as gay sex culture is significantly different in any respects from the prevailing sexual culture of most developed western societies.

We are of different age and have different experiences so I our viewpoints are different. I come here to have fun. This discussion isn't fun. I respect you and your opinions however. So I'll leave it at that.
 

earllogjam

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I would respond to earlogjam, but hilaire has done a good job of refuting most of his baseless assertions. In my experience, the only people who use some of the terms he's using, i.e. sex culture, are people who are turned down most of the time for sex. Do I have problems with the gay dance clubs? Yes. I think many gay men have what I call a Peter Pan syndrome. 40 something year old men tweezing their eyebrows to death, still out dancing shirtless and chasing 20 something twinks, doing botox, etc. It's akin to the fake boobed plastic surgery culture among many wealthy housewives. However, I'm intelligent enough to figure out that there are MANY facets of the gay community, including jocks, which I'd like to think I mostly hang out with. Men who work out, play sports, drink beer during the day, but are in bed at decent times. Is the gay community sex based? Perhaps, but I think that's purely a function of biology. It's two dudes, not a dude and a girl- it's not the same dynamic.

Baseless assertions? No, we just have different experiences. Try not to be so egocentric. People do and have different world outlooks than the one you do, and that should be fine. I don't try to bully people into seeing it my way and demean other people's opinions or life experiences.
 
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B_VinylBoy

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There's so much I want to say right now being that I've felt some of the angst that generates from both sides of the argument. All I will say right now is that Gay Pride is what you make of it. It doesn't have to be the parade (although that provides people with a huge symbol to associate with it), or the parties (which to some degree I accept since that is part of my career), or the sex (which dominates every culture known to man, so using this as a reason to hating Gay Pride is a little flimsy although understandable). Regardless of what the community does as a whole, it's all about reinforcing your own self image and how you visualize your life as being an out & proud gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender person.

I personally have only participated in one Gay Pride parade and it was in Mexico City when I was part of a float for an event I was performing at later that evening. I wasn't in skimpy clothing, pressed in drag, waving pride flags or prancing around like it was the fem queen voguing battle from "Paris Is Burning". At the same time, many different people whom I never met before, from all walks of life, were glad to see me there and wanted to take photos. Nobody is ever going to have the admiration of every single person out there, no matter how hard you seek it. But as long as you're able to put a smile on the face of one person you care about, or a total stranger who just happens to feel what you're feeling at that moment, isn't that what Pride should be about to begin with?
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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We are of different age and have different experiences so I our viewpoints are different. I come here to have fun. This discussion isn't fun. I respect you and your opinions however. So I'll leave it at that.

Baseless assertions? No, we just have different experiences. Try not to be so egocentric. People do and have different world outlooks than the one you do, and that should be fine. I don't try to bully people into seeing it my way and demean other people's opinions or life experiences.


Hold on, I feel slightly broadsided here, you were responding to Tomcat in your second post I know, but I don't see where you would get the impression he was bullying you or demeaning your opinions or life experiences so I imagine your comments could have been directed at me.

I nowhere said your experiences were invalid, I respect your view completely even if I do disagree with it, that's why I took the time to put my own view to you in response. I certainly never bullied you, I don't expect anyone to take a blind bit of notice of me let alone see anything the way I do, and I expect to learn more from discussing these issues with you than I knew to start with as is the nature of any good debate about anything.


I appreciate discussing this topic with you and appreciate your views even if I do challenge them and ask questions about them, I thought you might do the same to me, indeed I thought that's what was going on. :confused:
 

B_RedDude

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You like gay pride celebrations? Attend. You don't like them? Ignore them. That's the beauty of living in countries that value individual freedom.
 
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earllogjam

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Hold on, I feel slightly broadsided here, you were responding to Tomcat in your second post I know, but I don't see where you would get the impression he was bullying you or demeaning your opinions or life experiences so I imagine your comments could have been directed at me.

I nowhere said your experiences were invalid, I respect your view completely even if I do disagree with it, that's why I took the time to put my own view to you in response. I certainly never bullied you, I don't expect anyone to take a blind bit of notice of me let alone see anything the way I do, and I expect to learn more from discussing these issues with you than I knew to start with as is the nature of any good debate about anything.


I appreciate discussing this topic with you and appreciate your views even if I do challenge them and ask questions about them, I thought you might do the same to me, indeed I thought that's what was going on. :confused:

My comments to Tomcat weren't directed to you.

You seem like a very diplomatic poster here with a good heart, I don't have that opinion of Tomcat.
 

cklover

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By now, 'they' know we're here, we're queer, and many HAVE gotten over it...that said, I've still never liked being represented by the grotesqueries of the gay subculture in the festivities:rolleyes:
 

MickeyLee

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yeah.. cuz who would wanna be represented by the folks offering safer sex information and condoms. or the folks raising money for homeless GLBT youth. or those perverted fucks organizing helpers/runners for our eldery/disabled members.

or the people with families, blood or the bonded kind, showing up every year to keep connected. the dykes on bikes riding for someone they lost to breast cancer.

the Leather Men, those helpful bastards, making sure people get safe/sane intros into the community.. all the while raising money, devoting time and what not to charities of various natures.

those silly fuckers. giving us all a bad name.

when you only focus on sex, the outlandish, the over the top.. ya sayin more about you than about that naked dude on a leash.