I just can't trust women anymore...

lamplight

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In their 1995 book, Human Sperm Competition (London: Chapman & Hall), biologists Robin Baker and Mark Bellis suggest that females in contemporary Western society are rather promiscuous.

In her thesis, The Evolution of Female Promiscuity, Dr Olivia Judson of the University of Sussex, writes:
Males are natural philanderers, trying to seduce every female in sight; females are naturally chaste, more interested in laying eggs than having sex. Right? Wrong. Since the invention of DNA testing in the 1980s, the females of thousands of species have been shown to be rampantly promiscuous--and to gain significant fitness benefits from being so. This result, which came as a complete surprise to biologists, has forced a re-evaluation of our understanding of mating systems. In this talk, I will review the historical background to this re-evaluation. I will then discuss reasons that females are promiscuous, and the profound consequences of female promiscuity for male behaviour. will finish by discussing the impact of female promiscuity on broader evolutionary patterns.

And so on. The scientific evidence in the 13 years since Baker and Bellis is plentiful and overwhelming: just do a Google search. Many of us would rather deny this huge body of evidence: for those of us in a relationship, it may be too bitter a pill to swallow. As someone who in his teens and early twenties suffered much emotional trauma by learning this the hard way, I can, at least personally speaking, vouch for the veracity of all this research.

In this excellent LPSG post, the OP compiled a collection of statistics on infidelity. [Caution: DO NOT read this post if you would rather continue living in Cloud-Cuckoo Land believing that your wife/girlfriend has not, is not, or will not be unfaithful.]

As I said, I learned this lesson the hard way: it is several years since I had a regular, fulltime girlfriend. I am now firmly in the other camp, I fuck other men's girlfriends and wives. I do not do this with malice aforethought, it is just a fact of life that most of the attractive women I meet are already in a 'stable' relationship. Their boyfriends/husbands will never know about their infidelity. Women are much, much better and more convincing liars than men. Amongst my friends, male and female, and from personal experience, it appears that males will feel the need to confess at some point. Females will never admit their dalliances, even to their closest female confidantes.

You may think me bitter and cynical, but as a scientist, I now prefer to rely on the available evidence and live my life according to what some may feel is an anti-humanist stance. I fully expect to be shot down in flames for the contents of this post.

However, please remember, I do not regard myself as a 'player'. I treat women with absolute respect. I do not rape them. I do not drug them. I often do not even instigate the first contact. Is it your girlfriend making obvious eye-contact with me across the pub as she has an after work drink with her workmates? Is it your wife who I'm speaking to in the adult chatroom whilst you are away on a business trip? Well, it may be. But one thing is 99% certain: you will never find out.

Wow, this is just too fun a discussion to leave it alone. I love talking about stuff like this.

We are part animal, part human. I totally agree with you there. But I'm not going to lay down and cheaply label the evolution of consciousness that has been going on for 40 000 years, maybe more, to just some form of advanced mating ritual. Just think about how long it takes for biological organism to evolve! The change humans have made in behavior patterns should have take millions of years to form. But it keeps expanding. Faster and faster. 40 000 years is a millisecond in the big picture.

I think empirical science has become more and more like a rigid dogmatic religion, in that we don't question the interpretation of the findings. In western society Richard Dawkins IS god, in some circles. And he certainly likes all the attention that he gets. The good thing about science is that you get more clear and systematic answers. This is also the dangerous part of science. It makes it all to easy accept everything blindly.

And even if we are just animals, driven by instinct, we have evolved a sense of ethics. Should we just throw it out the window, when in fact, it is the only thing that has kept us alive up until now? Which is a miracle when you think about it...

Whenever a new paradigm enters the scene there are always a heap of people eagerly ready to take it at face value, and not only incorporate it, but exchange it entirely for the old one. If you look throughout history, this has always been disastrous. The truth always has modifications, and it's NEVER as simple as it looks.

I am not launching an attack here, I just love discussion. :biggrin1:

But I think the kind of mentality you have is the kind that makes wars. And in the old days when the first humans existed, this may not have been such a big deal. I mean, how much damage can you do with a club or a spear? But a person with hate and a grudge sitting with his finger on a missile? that's something very different. The more advanced our technology gets, the more we have to take kindness, ethics and candor into consideration when we deal with each other.
 

D_Prudence_Admonition_Drightits

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Oh, what can I say....you scientist on here definitely add a different perspective and ways of looking at things and indeed you are greatly appreciated. But trying to qualify things with science, even when science does not hold all the answers-I don't care how many theories you post, affairs of the heart go deeper than any theory.

Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life.Immanuel Kant
German philosopher (1724 - 1804)
 

melis

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Lamplight -

Certainly, evolution and science can be discussed back and forth - but the main issue still remains the lack of ability to trust... I think that in a relationship you just need to give it your all - you have to allow yourself to trust. To be able to have a loving and faithful relationship, you need to put your heart out there - even though taking that risk makes you vulnerable. It is scary - but beyond wonderful if you find someone that you can trust.

I've been hurt so bad it has taken me five years of heartache to pick myself up and decide to trust someone again. Like you, I lost faith in other people's intentions. You think you see the world for what it truly is? Maybe you've just gone from one extreme to another - from trusting blindly to distrusting everyone.

It's inevitable that sometimes we will get hurt. You can never know another person completely, there are always thoughts we hide from one another. Sure, we confide in each other - we listen to other people, fill in the blanks when needed. (Maybe that is the greatest danger - that we assume we know someone, we get caught up in everyday life and forget to see the other person for what he/she is.)

I believe that infidelity happens not only for biological reasons - I don't think we are driven by brainstem urges only. I think women in particular have a need to be seen - for who and what we are. When we feel that we are not loved or not appreciated, we find it easier to stray. Not that there aren't other reasons, I just think the most common is a need for confirmation - the need to be seen and loved.

So - trust with caution, but don't hold back on your feelings. After all, loving someone and being loved is the most wonderful thing. Take a chance! These are just some random thoughts on the matter, lamplight...

I don't know if this was helpful at all - you guys always need to rationalize. But maybe love is not a matrix? Maybe we can't explain every aspect of it?


Til deg i lampelyset - noen av oss er faktisk (serie)monogame og ønsker oss et forhold uten utroskap! Lykke til med å tørre å stole på noen!
 

Phil Ayesho

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Again, just to be clear... I argue for understanding our human biological imperatives...
but I do not argue that we should surrender to them.

There is great nobility in the effort to thwart some aspects of our animal natures...

I strive to be faithful.

I hope that my woman does as well...


But I can not bring myself to be absolutist about it.

Life is hard... relationships not always smooth... couples go thru periods of infatuation and intolerance of each other over the decades...

I can not reasonably demand a perfection of others that I am unable to achieve myself.


I lost one marriage due to a woman's inability to forgive a mistake... the resentment just festered till it poisoned the entire relationship.

I had one, lousy, one night stand when I was too young to really understand the situtation...
It taught me that I did not want to be that kind of guy...
But I got no credit given for change... No credit for 13 years of fidelity...

And my ex's alcoholism did not count as a betrayal of my trust.
Just 13 years of downward spiral...

Because of a single hour....


I have compassion. A serial philanderer deserves to be kicked to the curb...
but you should not judge your partner by the single worst moment of their lives.

When "trust" becomes a fixation that can not survive even one single youthful error.... then you are demanding something of your mate that is destined to destroy you both.
 

tripod

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Women are, by and large, a more trustworthy sex. When most women give you their word, they mean it. That cannot be said of men. It is the rare man that gives his word and means it. Most men are natural salesmen and shisters, always trying to pump themselves up (no pun intended) to appear as a better choice of a mate. Women usually lay back and have their pick of the men, they do not have to lie and cheat in order to score a mate, they just have to be. If one wants to talk about evolution, talk about how men have evolved to be good liars and braggadocios. It is this very braggadocio and half truths that men use to fool most women into having sex with them. That is the role of the "player" and the "game". Don't blame women for that... blame the rougher sex.

Women are beautiful creatures that possess a great deal of the "God" spirit that is on this earth... they are the protectors of children and the keepers of truth.

Women usually cheat because they don't have good self esteem. They fall prey to the admiring advances of the "player" and but the acceptance that the "player" is selling to them.

If anyone wants their woman to not cheat, then make her feel beautiful, make her feel like a woman, and be kind to her. If she still cheats, then you know that she has some deep seated self esteem issues that should have been addressed during the beginning of the relationship.
 

lamplight

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Again, just to be clear... I argue for understanding our human biological imperatives...
but I do not argue that we should surrender to them.

There is great nobility in the effort to thwart some aspects of our animal natures...

I strive to be faithful.

I hope that my woman does as well...


But I can not bring myself to be absolutist about it.

Life is hard... relationships not always smooth... couples go thru periods of infatuation and intolerance of each other over the decades...

I can not reasonably demand a perfection of others that I am unable to achieve myself.


I lost one marriage due to a woman's inability to forgive a mistake... the resentment just festered till it poisoned the entire relationship.

I had one, lousy, one night stand when I was too young to really understand the situtation...
It taught me that I did not want to be that kind of guy...
But I got no credit given for change... No credit for 13 years of fidelity...

And my ex's alcoholism did not count as a betrayal of my trust.
Just 13 years of downward spiral...

Because of a single hour....


I have compassion. A serial philanderer deserves to be kicked to the curb...
but you should not judge your partner by the single worst moment of their lives.

When "trust" becomes a fixation that can not survive even one single youthful error.... then you are demanding something of your mate that is destined to destroy you both.

Ahhh... Ok, now I feel like I understand you much more. :smile:

I think we're on the same page generally speaking. I just have this thing about wanting to get the whole picture. And I think there will always be something we can't define or put a label on. It kind of goes without saying. But still. It's important to remind one self of everyday wisdom now and again.

Til deg i lampelyset - noen av oss er faktisk (serie)monogame og ønsker oss et forhold uten utroskap! Lykke til med å tørre å stole på noen!

Hey, takk for det! Av en eller annen grunn fikk jeg det for meg at du var fra Sverige. Det kommer en viss jente på besøk hit nå om noen strakser. Jeg skal prøve å slippe taket, og stole på henne. Føler hun har vist bra karakter hittil. Er du i et bra forhold for tiden?
 

D_Prudence_Admonition_Drightits

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If anyone wants their woman to not cheat, then make her feel beautiful, make her feel like a woman, and be kind to her. If she still cheats, then you know that she has some deep seated self esteem issues that should have been addressed during the beginning of the relationship.

PERFECTO!
It goes back to what I stated in my very first post.
 

lamplight

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I'm just gonna make a totally irrational post, and let go of my scientific mind... Here's a bit from XTC's "Church of Women":

----------
A lie for a lie, but a truth for the truth

Church of women is made out of milk
Which their love turns to butter
Church of women will have you give praise
With a laugh, bark and stutter
Like us men like us men they are nothing like us men
Men have gargoyles ’round their hearts
I’m on my knees but dancing

Want to worship at the church of women
Breathe ’em in until my head goes spinning around
Want to worship at the church
Let me worship at the church of women
 

midlifebear

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First, I have to admit that I like women very much. I've even had long-term relationships with a couple, despite being basically gay. My long-time lover who slaved as a topless dancer in North Beach for Carol Doda (remember her?) in the late 60's/early 70's, putting herself through college, is still one of my best friends and listed prominently in my Will, although we quit fucking each other (physically) when we were about 22 years-old. Before then most of my relationships had been with men of varying ages. In fact, the older the better was my experience when it came to having a healthy sex life with men. Older women were also more dependable as sexual partners, but for me they were never quite as satisfying. After hooking up three or four times with the same woman, suddenly I felt the social pressure that I was in a relationship. Even though I was and always am up front with women about my predilection to prefer men, they tend to become emotionally attached without me doing much. Fortunately, most women have been able to realize that a long-term sexual or romantic relationship with me would not be a good idea. I'm always going to prefer to have sex with men. As I had to explain to one woman, "Look. It's not like I've got a cold and I'm going to get over it in a couple of weeks!" She finally learned to deal with it and we're still friends even though she's now married with adult children. Ironically, her husband is always glad to pawn her off on me for a week or two, sending her to Europe so he can be alone.

Occasionally I still have the opportunity to have sex with women (bi-sexual life style parties/clubs) and as long as it is just sex, I'm fine with it. However, I'm really not into all the ups and downs that seem inherent with being in a long-term or life-time relationship with a woman. Sure, probably every psychologist would jump on my feelings as an example of a Peter Pan complex. Most women I've known have complained that I have commitment issues. In part, they are right. I do have commitment issues, but with women -- not with men. Before I met my current squeeze I had been in an 8+-year relationship with the greatest man I've ever known or loved. But he had the fucking audacity to die on me unexpectedly in 1998. The bastard! I'm still pissed off that he died. I miss him every day.

My current relationship is with another man and we're passing the 5-year mark. We get along perfectly, although he's a bit younger than I prefer. I prefer men close to my own age. Still, I have a much more stable relationship with my current squeeze than I ever have had with a woman.

Women are great. I have sincere respect for (most of) them. I also think in many ways they have a much more difficult time in life than men. There is no question men and women are wired differently and hormonally there's a lot more going on in a woman's life than in a man's. At least, IMHO.

As for the idea that one does not really have a complete life or is a real man unless he has a family, well . . . sorry, that's fucking bullshit. I like children and got my surrogate fatherhood satisfied long ago by teaching combined 4th/5th grades for about 10 years. Kids are great. However, I knew early on that I didn't want any of my own. Still don't. I also have no interest in ever getting married to a woman. Fortunately, as certain forward-looking societies have changed I've been able to enjoy the status of being married to my current squeeze.

As for trust, I just know I can trust men more than I can trust women when it comes to being in a long-term relationship, living together, being honest with one another, and dealing with money. I compare my life to those of my many heterosexual married friends and I consider myself lucky. I have yet to suffer the dishonesty they tend to suffer, whether by design or accident. For example, I've never had a wife go off and have an abortion without first consulting me about it. Can't say that about three couples who I know who have been long-time friends. And I'm pro choice. I believe a woman's body is hers and not to be regulated by the government. Still, in a marriage I would at least expect to be consulted on the subject of an unexpected pregnancy.

That's basically that.
 

Phil Ayesho

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Women are, by and large, a more trustworthy sex. When most women give you their word, they mean it. That cannot be said of men. It is the rare man that gives his word and means it. .

Nonsense.
Pandering PC nonsense.

Current cultural zeitgeist notwithstanding, men are not doofus jerk assholes who lie and cheat any more than women are always wise and wonderful.

Some people are trustworthy, others are not.

I have met admirable women, and admirable men.

And I have met members of both sexes that are worthless.
The fact that worthless women are worthless in different ways than worthless men, does not mean they are better...


I have seen no discrepancy in numbers...

Just as many shrill bitches as aggressive assholes...

And Just as many wonderful women as admirable men.
 

Not_Punny

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Nonsense.
Pandering PC nonsense.

Current cultural zeitgeist notwithstanding, men are not doofus jerk assholes who lie and cheat any more than women are always wise and wonderful.

Some people are trustworthy, others are not.

I have met admirable women, and admirable men.

And I have met members of both sexes that are worthless.
The fact that worthless women are worthless in different ways than worthless men, does not mean they are better...


I have seen no discrepancy in numbers...

Just as many shrill bitches as aggressive assholes...

And Just as many wonderful women as admirable men.


Good point, but Tripod as a point too.

Women may sometimes/often be bitches, but they shoulder family responsibility better. There are far more deadbeat dads than deadbeat moms. And that's a fact.
 

tripod

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Nonsense.
Pandering PC nonsense.

Current cultural zeitgeist notwithstanding, men are not doofus jerk assholes who lie and cheat any more than women are always wise and wonderful.

Some people are trustworthy, others are not.

Just as many shrill bitches as aggressive assholes...

And Just as many wonderful women as admirable men.

I am not pandering to anyone... do you think I really give a shit about the women on this site? I hardly know any of em. I speak my experience, not political correctness. I am way more blunt than you think... anyone around here that knows me knows that I have a bit of foot in mouth disease and usually just haul off and post what I am feeling or thinking. It has been my experience that men are full of shit and women are by and large good and honest folk.
 

D_Kaye Throttlebottom

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Look, I don't want to seem like a woman hater, because I am not, so don't bite my head off, but I am EXTREMELY reluctant to go into a relationship with one.

After "The Game" came out and all that Pick Up Artist stuff started emerging, I started to dabble in it myself, and the way people reacted to it was startling. I feel that if a guy is good enough, your girl won't be able to say no to him.

Now, I really would like to have a girlfriend but I just don't believe that she will be able to be faithful to me. Love me? Sure, but if a player comes a long I just don't think she will be a able to restrain herself.

Let me just settle a few things, though. I have no problem meeting women who are interested in me, and we do have a great time... For a while... But I know quite a few guys who are VERY good PickUp artists, and they pull women with boyfriends like it's nothing. It's like some biological instinct more powerful than any logical reasoning can cope with just gets flipped on - and they cheat.

On average, i would trust more than 2% of women to be faithful, if given the opportunity to be charmed by these guys. Ironically, I would be stronger inclined to trust women who have been cheated ON, because they know how it feels on a deep emotional level.

Now, as I stated earlier, don't bite my head off. Let's get a healthy discussion going.

(BWT, if anyone intends to bring out the "Men cheat more than women" - card, the latest statistics I've read puts women slightly in the lead. About 52%...)

I was talking to a friend about this recently. He's been cheated on by his boyfriends twice and yet he's still optimistic and open that the right one is out there. He doesn't have the negative view that I have of monogamy.

I don't like the men cheat more than women thing, because you're going to be more sensitive to the infractions of others if you are a victim. Case in point, how tired women are hearing about the latest politician, athlete that are busted having an affair or with a prostitute.

If you're picking women that are vulnerable to game, you may want to change the type of woman you're picking. Someone that isn't sold on appearances or sold by talk alone.
 

tripod

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If you're picking women that are vulnerable to game, you may want to change the type of woman you're picking. Someone that isn't sold on appearances or sold by talk alone.

Well spoken words. That is what you guys need... a strong woman, they are like fucking GOLD!!!! :biggrin1:
 

dirty1dirty2

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Lamp as far as "The Game" goes, you know when a player looks for a target he's likely not going to go after the one with the BF when there are other options available. It's too much work, for too little gain and too much risk. If the PUA happens to be especially bold, up for a challenge, or your woman happens to be a real HB10 then he may go for it. However even in this case, and if you've read any of TD's stuff about getting rid of BF's you know this, it really comes down to existing problems in the relationship. Pretty everyone here already knows these points too, they should be relationship 101. Don't be needy, overly jealous, distant physically or mentally, abusive, moody, irresponsible, overly predictable, or non-assertive in bed. So basically if you are in a serious, mature relationship then look at these factors, fix any weak spots, don't worry about it and periodically re-evaluate the situation. You seem like a smart guy, you will find the right woman, just be patient and keep sarging until you do ;)
 

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Nonsense.
Pandering PC nonsense.

Current cultural zeitgeist notwithstanding, men are not doofus jerk assholes who lie and cheat any more than women are always wise and wonderful.

Some people are trustworthy, others are not.

I have met admirable women, and admirable men.

And I have met members of both sexes that are worthless.
The fact that worthless women are worthless in different ways than worthless men, does not mean they are better...


I have seen no discrepancy in numbers...

Just as many shrill bitches as aggressive assholes...

And Just as many wonderful women as admirable men.

Great post. Like Chris Rock's rant on women, their whole life is a lie.

She has heels on, she's not that tall!

She is wearing a push up bra, her tits dont look that good!

She is wearing makeup, her face doesnt look that good!

She dyed her hair, her hair isnt that color!
 

D_Prudence_Admonition_Drightits

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Great post. Like Chris Rock's rant on women, their whole life is a lie.

She has heels on, she's not that tall! I am not able to wear heels, I have to wear pumps or flats. I am 5'7" tall nothing to hide.
Hell I bet it was a man that created them damn uncomfortable high heel shoes anyway.

She is wearing a push up bra, her tits dont look that good!
I don't have to wear a push up bra. Very hard to find a push up bra in a 38DDD. Hell, the only thing they sell us is a breast minimizer.:eek:

She is wearing makeup, her face doesnt look that good!
I wear very little makeup. I prefer the natural look when it comes to makeup. I believe in good skin care and makeup is not good for that. At least on my skin.
But I do like to wear moisturizer to soften and even tone my face and a little lipstick to bring out my lips.

She dyed her hair, her hair isnt that color!
Never dyed my hair, now I may be bold and get some highlights this year. But hey speaking of hair color...I have seen men dye their hair....DOES THAT MAKE THEM A FAKE???

So in essence what you have just told me is that men are fools for outer appearance. When a woman is up front and real, you don't go for that. You all mostly go salivating after fake women.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

D_Prudence_Admonition_Drightits

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I was talking to a friend about this recently. He's been cheated on by his boyfriends twice and yet he's still optimistic and open that the right one is out there. He doesn't have the negative view that I have of monogamy.

I don't like the men cheat more than women thing, because you're going to be more sensitive to the infractions of others if you are a victim. Case in point, how tired women are hearing about the latest politician, athlete that are busted having an affair or with a prostitute.

If you're picking women that are vulnerable to game, you may want to change the type of woman you're picking. Someone that isn't sold on appearances or sold by talk alone.

You are so right. The pendulum swings both ways.

And on looks, men really need to evaluate that, seeing that they are more visual creatures. When I was growing up I was the nerdy type, tomboyish.
Now while I was good friends with guys, I wasn't "cute" enough to go on a date with them. They always went running after the gorgeous women. Then after getting told off or hurt feeling ran back to me to help them lick their wounds. It just burns me up to see men go through that. IT IS LIKE WAKE UP, YOU MAY HAVE PAST UP THE WOMAN OF YOUR DREAMS BECAUSE YOU WANTED A "HOT" WOMAN.

I have often thought the reason why men cheat is that:
They want a stable woman at home, someone to take care of house and family. Then they want the woman on the side, the kind they would never marry but they know how to push the right buttons in bed.
The cake and eat it to?

Okay, scientist what is the theory for all this?