I need advice really bad.

dolfette

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there was no pain, doll. it was the foolishness of youth that surrounded me with those types, and it was as liberating as a snake shedding it's restrictive and too-tight skin to remove them from my life.
 

TheRob

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okay, factor out the money. Now, the issue is they've been distant since New Years. So, have you thought, perhaps, they are having a hard time? That the stress from bills/and so on, has taken all their time and they have been caught up in that, perhaps simply feeling too miserable to even contact friends. And if they need money, and they know it, it's also humiliating to a degree to ask for help. Believe me, I've been in a situation where I needed help and it was hard -- wicked hard -- to ask. I'm very independent, and yes, when I'm in trouble I tend to shut down and focus on fixing the issues -- not talking to friends like I always do. Maybe they are simply having a rough spot, now they are better, but still not 100% and have the brain power to think of someone other than their own issues?

I hope this helps Rob, I could see your frustration with the money thing. And for the record, I loan money to a few friends. I see get it back too. It's just no big deal and if I need money they'd loan me some too. *shrug*

yes I have considered that
it is part of what is confusing me
it's just such a potentially bad situation :eek:(
 

Phil Ayesho

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I don't know if I didn't express myself well or what
but my problem isn't with them borrowing the money
my problem is with the fact that I'm trying to determine if I'm being manipulated or just being paranoid

I think you are almost certainly being manipulated.
And I would suggest that you , yourself, are manipulating, as well.

You lent them money before... and afterward, they treated you like they felt resentment...

This is understandable... just because someone else knows you will lend them money does not mean that borrowing from you makes them feel comfortable with you.
They are incurring a debt, and I am not referring, here, to the cash.

There is a psychological transfer along with the monetary one... They are admitting to you that they are unable to handle their finances.... and you are proving to them that you handle yours better ( earn more, hold a job better, or perhaps just live within your means )

In borrowing money they are lowering their social status relative to you. The one who needs help as contrasted to the one who can afford to offer help.

It is natural that someone who has borrowed money from you will avoid you, as you are a reminder of their failure.

And, if they should need to borrow money again, it is also natural that they try and re-connect with you. They are aware that they have avoided you, that they feel compromised by your generosity, and they feel guilty about this. Despite having paid you back, They feel that they OWE you a certain expression of friendship and affinity in return for the friendship and affinity you showed them in lending them the money.

This is the trap of charity. The person who does the giving is the person who benefits. You get the feeling of being helpful, generous, trusting, and successful.

They get a money problem solved... but at the expense of feeling needy and dependent and less able.




And here is where your manipulation comes in. You FELT that they had pulled away from you after the previous loan. And that bothered you... because on a very subtle level, you felt you were owed their friendship and affinity.

And now that they are buttering you up for another loan, you feel that their friendship and affinity is not genuine, so it bothers you even more.

But you are the one who chose to alter the relationship. As long as You are the one who can afford to give, and they are the ones who have their hat in hand, you are no longer PEERS.

Try to have compassion for what borrowing from you COSTS them. Understand that it is a complication in your relationship.


I am not saying that you can not be generous and offer to help your friends...
I am saying that is that relationship of exchange in only ONE WAY.... beneficence flowing From you To them.... then you are no longer their equal, you are making yourself their patron. And that is the root of the word "Patronizing".


The best remedy is for you to realize that the real gift is the opportunity to be giving. Recognize that when you do a favor for a friend... you create an inequity in obligation.
You can eliminate that inequity only by asking a favor of them... allowing them to come to your rescue in some small regard.
Allow them to have that feeling that they were able to be there for you, when you needed it, and that awkwardness between you will vanish.

Recognize that the debt is not eliminated when the money ledger is even.

It is eliminate when they can feel that they have something to offer that is as helpful to you, as was your generosity to them.

The psychic books must balance, even moreso than the bank accounts.
 

spoon

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you're better off with just one or two friends, or even just a sodding goldfish, than you are with the toxic types who are only interested in how a friendship will benefit them. they'll sap your self esteem away, drip by drip, by making you feel that you're only worth what you can give them.


This.
 

TheRob

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there was no pain, doll. it was the foolishness of youth that surrounded me with those types, and it was as liberating as a snake shedding it's restrictive and too-tight skin to remove them from my life.

I would LOVE to see you wearing something too tight
or shedding it
...maybe for my birthday?
 

TheRob

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Phil, I appreciate the amount of thought you put into that responce but a lot of it is off.
For one they didn't pull away any time soon after a previous loan, the last loan was like 2 years ago and they only pulled away basically in January of this year.
as far as them lowering themselves socially I dunno about that, I have been to them for help before in relationship advice and stuff like that so it's not like I help them and they never help me
 

helgaleena

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Rob, you have defended every criticism against your stance to remain generous to your friends. I think you are rejecting every bit of 'advice' because you are actually quite happy about your relations with them and don't have a real problem.
Congratulations! :240:
 

TheRob

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Rob, you have defended every criticism against your stance to remain generous to your friends. I think you are rejecting every bit of 'advice' because you are actually quite happy about your relations with them and don't have a real problem.
Congratulations! :240:

no offence but I thinkyou might have trouble with litteracy...
I said multiple times I didn't want advice ON THE LOAN
I wanted advice on the friendship and how to determine if I was being manipulated
people giving advice about the loan itself are wasting thier time so for me not to listen isn't a big surprise, if you can pay attention

to be fair to all of you I only said I wasn't looking for advice about the loan around a dozen times....so I can understand how you might have trouble understanding that in fact I AM NOT LOOKING FOR ADVICE ABOUT THE LOAN AT ALL

would another post help?
 

TheRob

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I'd just like everyone to know that I am not looking for advice about giving the loan
maybe lucky 13 will do it
 

Phil Ayesho

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Phil, I appreciate the amount of thought you put into that responce but a lot of it is off.
For one they didn't pull away any time soon after a previous loan, the last loan was like 2 years ago and they only pulled away basically in January of this year.
as far as them lowering themselves socially I dunno about that, I have been to them for help before in relationship advice and stuff like that so it's not like I help them and they never help me

If that is the case then what are you worried about?

I can only go on what you say, and you seemed to link the borrowing with their behavior.

If you have an equitable relationship in terms of obligations, then you have to ask yourself why You are reading their conduct in the way that you are.
Perhaps you are uncomfortable, on a deep level, with lending them money.
Perhaps you felt hurt that they seemed to drift away from you... and now suspect their rapprochement...

But either there is something about the lending affecting this exchange... or it is entirely of your own invention....
There are a thousand reasons why friendships wax and wane, and most of them have to do with things happening to the individual whose behavior is changing.

If it is not a case of obligation creating awkwardness...
Then it probably has nothing to do with you, but with them.

Why are you suspecting otherwise?
 

D_Bubba_Butter

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I'd just like everyone to know that I am not looking for advice about giving the loan
maybe lucky 13 will do it

I think your problem is that you mentioned the loan in relation to the way this person was behaving towards you. Then you wanted to know how to determine whether the friendship is genuine or you're being manipulated...

Very surprisingly, the kind people suggest how you might figure this out using the loan (which is what you think you're being manipulated over - correct?) as a tool. But you can't understand why this is the case & get shirty.

How the hell did you come by so much disposable income with so very little brain? Are you, in reality, Pooh Bear?

And for future reference, literacy has only one T.
 

helgaleena

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no offence but I thinkyou might have trouble with litteracy...
I said multiple times I didn't want advice ON THE LOAN
I wanted advice on the friendship and how to determine if I was being manipulated
people giving advice about the loan itself are wasting thier time so for me not to listen isn't a big surprise, if you can pay attention

to be fair to all of you I only said I wasn't looking for advice about the loan around a dozen times....so I can understand how you might have trouble understanding that in fact I AM NOT LOOKING FOR ADVICE ABOUT THE LOAN AT ALL

would another post help?

Rob, I am a professional editor and publisher. I'm literate. Also, I never mentioned money at all. You are jumpy about something.
 

TheRob

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Perhaps you felt hurt that they seemed to drift away from you... and now suspect their rapprochement...


yes it is EXACTLY this
I am sorry I really thought I had made it clear but in case I havn't yes THAT is my worry
I am worried that the only reason they are being a better friend now is they feel obligated because I am willing to help them financially or to cause me to do it cus they don't think I will...
 

TheRob

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I think your problem is that you mentioned the loan in relation to the way this person was behaving towards you. Then you wanted to know how to determine whether the friendship is genuine or you're being manipulated...

Very surprisingly, the kind people suggest how you might figure this out using the loan (which is what you think you're being manipulated over - correct?) as a tool. But you can't understand why this is the case & get shirty.

How the hell did you come by so much disposable income with so very little brain? Are you, in reality, Pooh Bear?

And for future reference, literacy has only one T.

well for future reference, the phrase for someone being upset isn't getting "shirty"
it seems adding a letter dosn't make someone stupid, or maybe it does I'm ok with you being an idiot...

as I see you lack the required intelligence to determine this for yourself I'll spell it out for you, I was complaining about the advice that ONLY delt with the loan
I was ok with the advice that delt with the loan in relation to testing out how they are acting, like someone said to go ahead with the loan but only loan part of the money they friend wanted (something like half or whatever) and see how that worked out
other advice was largely useless becuase it consisted mostly of "don't give them a loan they didn't pay you back!" um hello, they have always paid me back I said that several times
and telling me not to give them the loan at all to test thier reaction is stupid because I had already told them I'd loan them the money
obviously if I break my word to them they will get mad
you can't lie to someone then get upset that they question your honesty
I know you won't understand any of this so please just go away
if you can't offer advice on the question in hand shut up
 

TheRob

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Rob, I am a professional editor and publisher. I'm literate. Also, I never mentioned money at all. You are jumpy about something.

ok lets play
when you said I was defending my stance to be generous what were you talking about
you claim you didn't refer to money, what did you mean
obviously you were talking about the money

the only thing I'm edgy about is people are ignoring the part of this I actually need help on
if you were on fire and someone ran over to help you tie your fucking shoe
wouldn't you be a little pissed off at that

to put it another way if an author came to you with a book and you were like well I need to cut 20 pages, so they came back with 40 MORE pages wouldn't you be a little annoyed that you were not getting what you were needing
especially if those 40 extra pages were from a different book entirely
 

NoH8

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I think you are almost certainly being manipulated.
And I would suggest that you , yourself, are manipulating, as well.

<snip...snip>

Try to have compassion for what borrowing from you COSTS them. Understand that it is a complication in your relationship.
Phil's answer was worth it's weight (wordage?) in gold! This is how to think about re-balancing the inequities in the friendship.

I am wondering if you are able to figure out if the friendship is genuine but inequitable, or if the friendship is co-dependent and toxic.

If you work with what Phil has given you and the friendship is revived and you begin to feel better, then it's genuine. If not, it might be toxic, which maybe what Helgalena was questioning when she suggested that you might be touchy about something. You have certainly shown some unwelcome defensiveness in this thread which could be a sign that you "depend on" the inequities in this friendship because you get something out of it yourself. You hinted that you feel needy or lonely and that this friendship helps you with your needs. You may have other ulterior needs that your friend satisfies (like needing to feel superior, or needing to feel needed) which is where the word patronizing comes in.

Sometimes it's hard to see the reality of a co-dependent relationship because both parties rationalize or defend their behavior to protect their own needs. Both parties would prefer to view the relationship as a genuine one with no inequities or bonds of dependency, an adult relationship.

One way to think about a co-dependent relationship is to contrast it with an adult relationship of peers or equals. In a co-dependent relationship one role is that of the "parent" while the other person reverts to the role of the "child". But then the roles are reversed, which seems to be what is happening in your relationship.

When your friend occasionally needs money, you get to be the parent, and they (uncomfortably) have to be the child. To remove the imbalance and to make themselves feel more comfortable, your friend may be trying to "parent you" with kindness and companionship when he perceives that you are a lonely little child.

This see-saw pattern in your relationship may actually satisfy BOTH of you, which may be why you seem willing to defend your behaviour with respect to your friend. We can't be sure since we can't know what your friend is thinking or doing.

I may be completely wrong about this relationship, and I hope I am, but if it isn't toxic you should be able to calm the waters and level it out again by working with what Phil has given you.

If you decide that the relationship is not healthy for you and does not truly satisfy you as a sharing between peers or equals you could do what Dolfette did and jettison the people who are harming your welbeing. It's up to you.
 
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