I saw the ultimate LAZY auto worker job.

[atomicTIGER]

An Armed revolution eh? And what could that possibly achieve? A takeover of the Toyota plants? Maybe the Honda plants? Storm the Wal-marts and take all there Chinese goods at gunpoint? Shoot all the UAW folks? What??!!

You are correct this is the classic "Kobiashamaru Senerio" I didn't spell that correct I know. If you are not a Trekie--it is a "no win senerio" We are screwed in this country--most of it is due to lawyers suing all of these friviuolus lawsuits--like candy-asses who go crying to there boss that their hands hurt--or some bullshit. Also due to unions--they have destroyed almost all the good factory jobs, and greedy polititions, the medical insurance companies, all of these have contribited to the saddest thing I have seen in my life---And that is to be honest --We are witnessing the end of the US as we once knew it. We are a country on the decline--and there is nothing to do to stop it--Bush put the death nail in us. That is so sad.

 

[Rikter8]

240 tires per day for this worker NOT 5000-6000!!

Ah, thats right. You work in the auto industry...so you would know.
You'd know the end of line production numbers on a daily basis.

mmmk.

 

[pym]

You are correct this is the classic "Kobiashamaru Senerio" I didn't spell that correct I know. If you are not a Trekie--it is a "no win senerio" We are screwed in this country--most of it is due to lawyers suing all of these friviuolus lawsuits--like candy-asses who go crying to there boss that their hands hurt--or some bullshit. Also due to unions--they have destroyed almost all the good factory jobs, and greedy polititions, the medical insurance companies, all of these have contribited to the saddest thing I have seen in my life---And that is to be honest --We are witnessing the end of the US as we once knew it. We are a country on the decline--and there is nothing to do to stop it--Bush put the death nail in us. That is so sad.

Sorry, i DO-NOT agree with you.....AT ALL.
It has been peoples buying habits that have Buried our native industrial base. 40 years ago the ROT set in when we did not protect our industries from Massive onslaught of cheap foreign goods inundating our markets. Combine that with the MANTRA, "American cars are SHIT" "American Cars are SHIT" etc....etc....etc.....I have never owned a car that was not made under the badge of the big 3. I was raised to believe that is an UN-THINKABLE thing to do. I was raised right. I could write a 10 page essay on how we lost one industry after another to APATHY and Trade inequity's. I won't even bother about espionage and patent/trademark/couterfeit infringements. But fuck-it, right? You've got your Play-station and internet Porn and Wal-mart to distract you from what's really REAL. We all have Hours in the day to 'Discuss' whats wrong....and be as divisive as we can. But NOT a minute to lift a finger that can Change things for the better. I GOT MINE.....SO FUCK-YOU JACK!
Now is'nt that how it REALLY is?

 

[crowdpleaser]

The issue is not the laziness of the guy who could have picked up the tire, or the crane he is using to pick it up. Assuming that the guy gets paid $20-$35/ hour, should he be? Thousands of people would be more than happy to pick up a tire or operate a crane for far less but the union makes it possible. The union is probably more responsible than anyone.

The union negotiates contracts to get these workers twice what they should be. If I were the worker or the union I would be happy as shit for this. The problem is the union simply wants to collect dues.

I worked at a grocery store that was about to close and convert to another format and the union let the company design a contract where the employees of the current company would take a 10% pay cut if they transfered to another store, get a severence package if they didn't, and also approve a contract for the future workers of the new format. Of course the contract passed. The new format would then consist of up to 300 part time workers receiving $5.15/hr, no benefits for 1 year, only 4 full timers per store, and, oh yeah, all 300 would pay $5 per week to the union. Why exactly should the union receive up to $1500/ week for doing nothing but negoiating a shitty contract? A worker at non-union McDonalds would get paid more. By the way, the above company closed within 1 year, no employees ever got benefits.

I also worked at UPS around the same time. At UPS everyone paid $50 per month in dues regardless of wether you get paid $8/hr or $50/hr. Meanwhile 2 of the top 10 highest paid people in the city (approximate population 300,000) worked for that union, the teamsters. What the shit!

Bottom line, the auto industry is not where it is because some guy doesn't want to pick up a tire, or because management wants to have the guy use a crane to pick up the tire, its because the union wants the guy to get paid double what he should.

The auto crisis would have happened much sooner had the companies not tried to retire the guy making $35/hr and replace him with a guy making $20/hr, still having been compliant with the union. They have to offer early retirement packages to survive nowadays, primarily due to the union.

The best thing that could happen to the auto industry is for the government to offer aid and run the companies and drive out the union, or the companies to be denied the bailout and drive out the union anyway. Or else this will repeat itself after the union employees absorb all the all the bailout money and drive up wages even higher. The only thing worse than a guy paid $35/hr who can pick up tire, or have a crane pick it up for him, is the guy being paid $50 to do the same, and still not give a damn.

 

[deleted213967]

They are nothing more than ORGANIZED CRIME!

Are you insinuating that organized crime in the US may have ties to labor unions?

 

[atomicTIGER]

The issue is not the laziness of the guy who could have picked up the tire, or the crane he is using to pick it up. Assuming that the guy gets paid $20-$35/ hour, should he be? Thousands of people would be more than happy to pick up a tire or operate a crane for far less but the union makes it possible. The union is probably more responsible than anyone.

The union negotiates contracts to get these workers twice what they should be. If I were the worker or the union I would be happy as shit for this. The problem is the union simply wants to collect dues.

I worked at a grocery store that was about to close and convert to another format and the union let the company design a contract where the employees of the current company would take a 10% pay cut if they transfered to another store, get a severence package if they didn't, and also approve a contract for the future workers of the new format. Of course the contract passed. The new format would then consist of up to 300 part time workers receiving $5.15/hr, no benefits for 1 year, only 4 full timers per store, and, oh yeah, all 300 would pay $5 per week to the union. Why exactly should the union receive up to $1500/ week for doing nothing but negoiating a shitty contract? A worker at non-union McDonalds would get paid more. By the way, the above company closed within 1 year, no employees ever got benefits.

I also worked at UPS around the same time. At UPS everyone paid $50 per month in dues regardless of wether you get paid $8/hr or $50/hr. Meanwhile 2 of the top 10 highest paid people in the city (approximate population 300,000) worked for that union, the teamsters. What the shit!

Bottom line, the auto industry is not where it is because some guy doesn't want to pick up a tire, or because management wants to have the guy use a crane to pick up the tire, its because the union wants the guy to get paid double what he should.

The auto crisis would have happened much sooner had the companies not tried to retire the guy making $35/hr and replace him with a guy making $20/hr, still having been compliant with the union. They have to offer early retirement packages to survive nowadays, primarily due to the union.

The best thing that could happen to the auto industry is for the government to offer aid and run the companies and drive out the union, or the companies to be denied the bailout and drive out the union anyway. Or else this will repeat itself after the union employees absorb all the all the bailout money and drive up wages even higher. The only thing worse than a guy paid $35/hr who can pick up tire, or have a crane pick it up for him, is the guy being paid $50 to do the same, and still not give a damn.

You have a very strong grasp on what is really happening--You made some very true wise statements--BUT the truth is the Union will NOT just go away or be forced out--The union is the most powerful organization in the US--more powerful than the Government for all practical purposes..Whoever decides to take on the Union to force it out of anywhere will simply be killed... That is the truth--they are a ruthless, bloodthirsty organization who will kill anyone or any group of people who theaten to force them out of any company they have their claws into. I hope I don't find a dead horse head in my bed for saying this.:frown1:

 

[treefarmer]

Or maybe GM doesn't want to have to pay workmans comp every time someone hurts themselves by repetitively picking up tires. How do the Toyota factories do this job? My guess is a similar way. And GM workers are not being paid any more than Toyota workers. It's the retiree pensions and health care that are killing them.

You need to look at the facts before offering an OPINION ... GM, Ford, and Chrysler union worker wages are anywhere from 2 to 3 times more for each hourly worker than for Toyota, Nissan, etc. That is why they are in such trouble and can't compete.

 

[atomicTIGER]

You need to look at the facts before offering an OPINION ... GM, Ford, and Chrysler union worker wages are anywhere from 2 to 3 times more for each hourly worker than for Toyota, Nissan, etc. That is why they are in such trouble and can't compete.

Good job!! Set him straight!! Lets get the facts out there! NO more shuffling things under the carpet! Its all the big 3's chickens coming home to ROOST!!! No more bullshit allowed!! Just the straight facts!!

 

[faceking]

Or maybe GM doesn't want to have to pay workmans comp every time someone hurts themselves by repetitively picking up tires. How do the Toyota factories do this job? My guess is a similar way. And GM workers are not being paid any more than Toyota workers. It's the retiree pensions and health care that are killing them.

That's crazy talk... being all reasonable and intelligent n' stuff.

 

[treefarmer]

Good job!! Set him straight!! Lets get the facts out there! NO more shuffling things under the carpet! Its all the big 3's chickens coming home to ROOST!!! No more bullshit allowed!! Just the straight facts!!

I can't speak to all the problems with the auto industry, but unions are a major factor. The management of the car companies tried to ignore the workers' requests for additional pay while taking more for themselves. It's a mess.

 

[crowdpleaser]

You have a very strong grasp on what is really happening--You made some very true wise statements--BUT the truth is the Union will NOT just go away or be forced out--The union is the most powerful organization in the US--more powerful than the Government for all practical purposes..Whoever decides to take on the Union to force it out of anywhere will simply be killed... That is the truth--they are a ruthless, bloodthirsty organization who will kill anyone or any group of people who theaten to force them out of any company they have their claws into. I hope I don't find a dead horse head in my bed for saying this.:frown1:

Yes, I agree the union will not just go away. And I agree they are stronger than they have ever been, but I do not agree that the unions are more powerful than the goverment or that the unions would kill to keep the unions active. I do, however, believe that the unions time in history is up, or that it should be. The unions were good when it came to 8yrs in coal mills, but not when it comes to grown men who are not required to pick up tires (even though, ultimately, thats what their job entails) i beleive that the goverment will have to eliminate them, or else the billions will just go back to the union.

I scares me to think that the government is powerless, the goverment is, indeed, non-union. Perhaps if the goverments dictated that if the bailouts occur, they would ultimately be responsible for the companies, and therefore not report to the unions. I would hope that the goverment could void contracts when it creates the bailouts, but this is just wishful thinking (I know nothing about the legal ramifications of a bailout, just my own experiences with them), I just don't beleive US auto companies will not survive with unions, in which case the unions would be gone anyway, but what about our economy.

 

[atomicTIGER]

Yes, I agree the union will not just go away. And I agree they are stronger than they have ever been, but I do not agree that the unions are more powerful than the goverment or that the unions would kill to keep the unions active. I do, however, believe that the unions time in history is up, or that it should be. The unions were good when it came to 8yrs in coal mills, but not when it comes to grown men who are not required to pick up tires (even though, ultimately, thats what their job entails) i beleive that the goverment will have to eliminate them, or else the billions will just go back to the union.

I scares me to think that the government is powerless, the goverment is, indeed, non-union. Perhaps if the goverments dictated that if the bailouts occur, they would ultimately be responsible for the companies, and therefore not report to the unions. I would hope that the goverment could void contracts when it creates the bailouts, but this is just wishful thinking (I know nothing about the legal ramifications of a bailout, just my own experiences with them), I just don't beleive US auto companies will not survive with unions, in which case the unions would be gone anyway, but what about our economy.

The truth is they WILL kill and HAVE KILLED. They are essentially a branch of organized crime(AKA Mafia). And they will and have killed anyone and everyone up to the Commander in Chief if he stands up to Union--that is the reason why upper Government has not wiped out the union--they don't want to be killed.

 

[sparky11point5]

I am not sure about your 'facts' since you don't give any reference.

Here is an article from 2007.

UAW Losing Pay Edge: Foreign Automakers' Bonuses Boost Wages in U.S. Plants as Detroit Car Companies Struggle: aftermarket News

The article cites the wages for the Georgetown, KY, Toyota plant as an average of $30 per hour, including a $6,000 - $8,000 profit sharing bonus. In contrast, the average UAW wage is $27 per hour.

Admittedly, the Georgetown pay is one of the highest of non-UAW plants. I have seen other sources that cite average wages around $24 per hour for these plants, largely in Alabama, Mississippi, and Georgia.

So, the facts, Treefarmer, don't seem to support your argument of UAW wages being 'two to three times' non-union wages.

So, do you have any evidence that non-UAW workers make $9 - $13.50 per hour?

Pesky facts.

You need to look at the facts before offering an OPINION ... GM, Ford, and Chrysler union worker wages are anywhere from 2 to 3 times more for each hourly worker than for Toyota, Nissan, etc. That is why they are in such trouble and can't compete.

 

[TurkeyWithaSunburn]

How was that guy lazy? He wasn't sitting on his butt watching someone else who needed help and not helping. He was doing his job, operating a machine. Who bought the machine?

You are basing your entire argument on one video clip, that was how long? Maybe that guy did have a back injury and was on light duty and that was his job. Maybe they rotated positions every half hour and that was only one part of his day. It was an easy position because of repetitive motions in the others of the line.

I've worked in union and non union places. In both I have been told don't do somethings. "But this way is faster!" I said. "You might get hurt, so don't do it if you don't want to get written up," I was told. Isn't it nice to know that a company cares if you are hurt and could have a back injury?

You have a very strong grasp on what is really happening--You made some very true wise statements--BUT the truth is the Union will NOT just go away or be forced out--The union is the most powerful organization in the US--more powerful than the Government for all practical purposes..Whoever decides to take on the Union to force it out of anywhere will simply be killed... That is the truth--they are a ruthless, bloodthirsty organization who will kill anyone or any group of people who theaten to force them out of any company they have their claws into. I hope I don't find a dead horse head in my bed for saying this.:frown1:

Well next time you work more than 40 hours a week make sure you tell your employer just give me straight time, give up that time and a half. Unions fought for that. And never file for workmen's compensation. Unions fought for that too. Make sure your sister, wife, or mother makes half of what a male in the same hourly production line job makes. Unions fought for equal pay too.

You do know there are many different unions? Hell, the actors union (SAG) is on the verge of a strike, again. Unions in the USA have so little power compared to other countries it's really pathetic. We don't have the massive strikes like they do in France and Italy. Maybe we should repeal the Taft-Hartley Act so we can really see just how powerful unions CAN be. There can legally be no sympathy strikes in the USA. Just imagine if all the unions went on strike because they wanted to see CEO pay come down from stratospheric levels to just high levels?

Unions are NOT more powerful than the government.

Union leaders did not like the bill when it was proposed. Harry Truman vetoed Taft-Hartley, but Congress overrode his veto. More Democrats joined Republicans in voting for the bill and the override than voted against it.[8] Despite this, union leaders in the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) continued to support Democrats and vigorously campaigned for Truman in the 1948 election based upon a (never fulfilled) promise to repeal Taft-Hartley.[9]

If "the union" were more powerful than the government then how would a veto be OVERRIDDEN?

The truth is they WILL kill and HAVE KILLED. They are essentially a branch of organized crime(AKA Mafia). And they will and have killed anyone and everyone up to the Commander in Chief if he stands up to Union--that is the reason why upper Government has not wiped out the union--they don't want to be killed.

Who is this "they", "them", and "the Union"?

I thought only left wing lunatics were conspiracy theorists. Glad to see I was wrong.

 

[uniqueusername]

I am not sure about your 'facts' since you don't give any reference.

Here is an article from 2007.

UAW Losing Pay Edge: Foreign Automakers' Bonuses Boost Wages in U.S. Plants as Detroit Car Companies Struggle: aftermarket News

The article cites the wages for the Georgetown, KY, Toyota plant as an average of $30 per hour, including a $6,000 - $8,000 profit sharing bonus. In contrast, the average UAW wage is $27 per hour.

Admittedly, the Georgetown pay is one of the highest of non-UAW plants. I have seen other sources that cite average wages around $24 per hour for these plants, largely in Alabama, Mississippi, and Georgia.

So, the facts, Treefarmer, don't seem to support your argument of UAW wages being 'two to three times' non-union wages.

So, do you have any evidence that non-UAW workers make $9 - $13.50 per hour?

Pesky facts.

The problem isn't how much they are paid now. It's that after the union employees are laid off/quit/retire, they continue to draw almost full salary for several years and have very high pensions. Over the last few decades, thousands of such employees have quit and the Big 3 are footing the bill for their retirements.

The reason the Japanese automakers can do almost the exact same business as the Americans and profit while the Americans lose is that they don't have decades of legacy costs dragging them down.

Of course, the Democrats want to pass card check as quickly as possible so that the Japanese plants are unionized too. Then all of them will suffer equally.

 

[atomicTIGER]

The problem isn't how much they are paid now. It's that after the union employees are laid off/quit/retire, they continue to draw almost full salary for several years and have very high pensions. Over the last few decades, thousands of such employees have quit and the Big 3 are footing the bill for their retirements.

The reason the Japanese automakers can do almost the exact same business as the Americans and profit while the Americans lose is that they don't have decades of legacy costs dragging them down.

Of course, the Democrats want to pass card check as quickly as possible so that the Japanese plants are unionized too. Then all of them will suffer equally.

OK now we're getting somewhere--its the retiree's --that makes sense--they draw big money years and years after they are producing--BUT that was ONCE AGAIN the UNIONs brillients creation. It was UNION bosses long since dead who did this---I believe the ONLY solution is start scaling back what the retiree's are paid--not to stave them but they deserve the same as anyone else makes on Social Security. They are nothing special--they earned massive pay in their work days and with just a little wise investment they could easily be millionaires and should need no retirement "Golden Parachute" from their Union contract. It personal responsibility--when you make the big bucks --its simple invest in a retirement account and no "Golden Parachute" retirement would be needed. So SEE THERE I JUST SOLVED THE ENTIRE PROBLEM!!! But no one will listen to me because I MAKE TO MUCH SENSE!! For a company to pay a person years after they are gone MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL--Where in the HELL IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM?? From over priced shitty cars and operating BILLIONS of dollars in the red year after year. Think of it --if you owned a bussiness would you make a deal to pay someone years after they are gone?? HELL NO!! IT MAKES NO SENSE!! Thats why schools are so broke--same problem--once again THANK YOU Unions for fucking that up too. And I am not 100% sure but I believe railroads have made huge changes in this area --but I am not 100% sure about railroad workers. I know they at one time had the very best retirement deal--I think that has changed.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Yes, I agree the union will not just go away. And I agree they are stronger than they have ever been, but I do not agree that the unions are more powerful than the goverment or that the unions would kill to keep the unions active. I do, however, believe that the unions time in history is up, or that it should be. The unions were good when it came to 8yrs in coal mills, but not when it comes to grown men who are not required to pick up tires

WHAT!?!

Jeezus... you folks really have no fucking clue...

LOOK at the fucking video- the tire weighs 50 pounds.... lets see EITHER ONE of you numbskulls pick up, position and bolt into place 200 tires in an 8 hour shift.... without dropping oen and stopping the whole line...and do that again and again year in and out...


Really... you have been SOLD a bullshit myth that unions are the problem.
America only HAS a middle class because of organized labor. PERIOD....

and guess what happens when we no long have organized labor? Why we get exactly what we have enjoyed for the past 8 years... the rich getting WHOPPING richer and the wages of the vast majority stagnating or falling.

ONE $15 million dollar BONUS for an auto industry exec is worth a $5,000 raise for 3,000 employees.
Get that? When these greedy fucks write THEMSELVES a check, that's money that COULD have gone to workers.



Jobs outsourced because, without organized labor, there is NO ONE to stop them shipping our jobs to a guy they can pay half as much.


I don't see anyone asking the multimillion dollar salary bosses, the ones who MANAGED the company, decided what cars to build and how to build them...
I donlt see anyone asking them to take half pay, to deny themselves bonuses.

Hell- for ONE ex to NOT get his $15million bonus is the same as 3,000 workers taking a $5,000 pay cut... only the workers don't have to take the cut.

And guess who can afford the cut in pay? The guy making 10 million a year who loses an EXTRA $15 million.... or the guy making $60,000 a year and supporting a family of 4?

The FACT is that NON-UNION auto workers in Japanese owned plants ( in the very state of the republican Senator who led the effiort to kill the Detroit bailout ) make 70 CENTS per hour less than the Union workers... that is how badly the union has fucked the US auto company.... by 70 whole cents...


You anti union guys make me sick. We see what happens when anti union administrations get power... American manufacturing declines, national debt soars, and bankers and brokers get rich.... usually thru illicit means...

Our economy is in the shitter because numbskull like you guys have bought into the anit-union propaganda foisted on you. Because we have allowed the manufacturing base of this nation to be eroded and have allowed instruments of DEBT to replace real productivity.

We have gone from the worlds largest EXPORTER of manufactured goods, when Reagan was sworn into office... to the world biggest exporter of raw materials ( the functional definition of a third world economy is one that only exports raw materials and imports all manufactured goods.)


Unions arose in response to the excesses of the robber barons and their company towns and company stores...
And, today, with Unions in decline, what we see emerging is an entire middle class that lives on CREDIT...
We owe the profits of our next 10 years labor... its just today we call the company store Citibank or Mastercard.

Putting you and I into debt is their GOAL... to limit our options... to force us to work and render us unable to protest...

To take what were given and like it.



But their idiotic economic theories have blown up in their faces.

Fuck the unions and you fuck the middle class. Even if you own your own small business, at SOME level your sales DEPEND on the earnings of union workers.

Fuck the middle class and you fuck the entire US economy.


Everyone is SOOOOO concerned about the Middle East and Terrorism....

But the real threat is here, in our midst, in the form of republican economic theories that have PROVEN to be dangerously flawed.

 

[HyperHulk]

I've heard it said before but why the hell doesn't the oil companies who have made gabillions over the past 8 years of Bush rule pay for the bailout? Isn't in their best interest of the automakers to survive?

 

[just some guy]

Someone may have already mentioned this, not going to read the whole thread, but there are actually quite a few auto workers who get paid not to work at all. The big 3 keep them on staff just in case demand for American automobiles increases and they have to up production later. Absurd, but true. They have some guys who have been coming in to work and doing NOTHING for years now. Full pay, full benefits.

At least the spare tire guy... well... somebody has to do that job. Whether you think it's easy or not. Maybe the machinery complicates or belabors the process.

 

[just some guy]

I've heard it said before but why the hell doesn't the oil companies who have made gabillions over the past 8 years of Bush rule pay for the bailout? Isn't in their best interest of the automakers to survive?

Also a good point. It was mostly their fault (though there were many other factors as well) that the electric cars Americans were producing back in the late 90s were stomped out of existence. If we had proceeded with developing that technology we'd be decades ahead of the Japanese instead of trailing behind them when it comes to fuel-efficient vehicles, and maybe actually producing cars that people want to buy. American ingenuity was stifled in the name of profit, and now profits are going to suffer big time for it because greedy businessmen are ridiculously short-sighted and not interested in anything other than what they can sell their stocks for tomorrow. Same issue as we're having with the housing and banking crisis.