I think the way prisons operate is wrong.

[D_Andreas Sukov]

You have made great points about the education, i think i mentioned that the whole system is wrong, its not just the way prisons are run. The standard of education is important but there is a logic in what i am saying about being given time to think in prison. In top notch schools there are far less distractions than in the average school and university, so less distraction improves learning.

The majority of all crime committed is in some way linked to money and it is greed (and a could'nt care attitude) that leads to people violating the law instead of living within their means. In reference to another thread i made recently, if rent was'nt so high then people would actually see a profit in holding down a job rather than breaking the law to get ahead. I used to buy cannabis off an unemployed guy who had his rent and council tax paid by the council whilst he sold drugs on the side and raked in more in a month than i do in 3. The whole system, the way society works, it needs an overhaul. And no excuse of the cost it will take should deter such change because it is long time overdue. IMO

What solution? REVOLUTION!!!!!:biggrin1:

 

[Rikter8]

Why we have prisons:

1. State taxpayer Revenue
2. Intimidation to the general public
3. A place for the truely fucked up to go, but with no rehabilitation.

I don't agree with the system either. It's hardly a Correctional facility. It's a straw shoved in taxpayers backs claiming to keep the streets safe.

If anything, people go in and come out MORE pissed off..MORE vengeful than when they went in. Why? Because the money supposed to go to "Rehabilitation" gets pocketed and mis-used.

For some criminals, there just isn't anything that can be done. I'm talking about seriously deranged individuals flesh eating monsters. The rest, I believe should serve military time.

That's the claim to fame of the military...isn't it? "Completely BREAK you and build you back up"

Sounds perfect to me - and it gives them a chance to "Serve their country"
Leave the 18 year olds to go to school and stop the broken promises.

Take the Rapists and lesser crime folks to boot camp. Overcrowding problem solved.
Oh..and we get soldiers for free. Put em on the front line. Good peeps for bomb searches.

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

Why we have prisons:

1. State taxpayer Revenue
2. Intimidation to the general public
3. A place for the truely fucked up to go, but with no rehabilitation.

I don't agree with the system either. It's hardly a Correctional facility. It's a straw shoved in taxpayers backs claiming to keep the streets safe.

If anything, people go in and come out MORE pissed off..MORE vengeful than when they went in. Why? Because the money supposed to go to "Rehabilitation" gets pocketed and mis-used.

For some criminals, there just isn't anything that can be done. I'm talking about seriously deranged individuals flesh eating monsters. The rest, I believe should serve military time.

That's the claim to fame of the military...isn't it? "Completely BREAK you and build you back up"

Sounds perfect to me - and it gives them a chance to "Serve their country"
Leave the 18 year olds to go to school and stop the broken promises.

Take the Rapists and lesser crime folks to boot camp. Overcrowding problem solved.
Oh..and we get soldiers for free. Put em on the front line. Good peeps for bomb searches.

Speak to anyone in the military and they will tell you thats a bad idea. They dont want to have to babysit spoiled babies and the psychos that dont wanna be there, makiung their job more dangerous

 

[mitchymo]

What solution? REVOLUTION!!!!!:biggrin1:

Damn it man, Yea, i call for it, i just wish i was in a position to encourage it.

Oh..and we get soldiers for free. Put em on the front line. Good peeps for bomb searches.

Oooohhh, that is harsh, i should'nt grin but harsh. :smile:

 

[helgaleena]

I have not been to prison because i've not broke the law.

Overcrowding? that is the perfect example of a failed system. If prisons were built when needed so as not to have overcrowding whilst maintaining an isolation approach then the repeat offenders rate would plummet and there would'nt have been an overcrowding issue in the first place.

Citing abuse by staff etc etc is discrediting to a solution that tho it may fail for such reasons in a draconian nation has a great chance of success in a moderated society. Unless of course you have no faith in your countrymen at all that may make you think those in charge of the penal institutions are ALL bad people which would be monumentally ironic.

You are right, it IS monumentally ironic, and i do have no faith in my countrymen at all.

I was in a prison in Europe and it was pretty cushy...Most prisons in the world including USA are not dayspas, as some of those posting to this thread seem to think. I would not keep an animal in conditions like the ones in some prisons.

But the solitary model you envision, mitchy, is too costly because of the warehousing nature of the institutions. The ones sending folk there and the ones building them are not on the same page.

 

[Viking_UK]

I wish I knew the facts about this but I can't remember them. There is a prison, I believe in AZ, which the warden runs like no other. The inmates are made to wear all pink. They sleep outside in tents where it gets to be well over 100 degrees. They get basic food such as bologna sandwiches - just enough to cover the basic nutritional requirements. No special anything. They have to work. There's more to it too along the same lines. There are many complaints from the inmates as you can imagine and people have said it's cruel and unusual punishment to make them sleep in the heat like that. The warden's response is that our armed forces sleep in tents in heat like that the only difference is that they also have people shooting bullets and rockets at them. If it's good enough for our soldiers, inmates can deal with it too! Great attitude.

I get very angry when I hear of inmates complaining about their rights. As far as I'm concerned, they have no rights once they've broken the law. Now, on the other hand, I think there are people in jail who probably don't belong there.

I saw a doco about that prison a while ago. It had its flaws, but it also had some plus points, and the logic that if it's good enough for soldiers, it's good enough for criminals is a hard one to argue against.

I remember thinking a few years ago when I was struggling financially that it would actually be easier for me if I went to prison. I'd have a guaranteed roof over my head, three meals a day, sky TV and the time and resources to study another degree for free (assuming the sentence was long enough).

Part of the problem with prisons is that they're practically training grounds. Prisoners talk about what they did, how they got caught etc, and then spend the rest of their sentence being taught or working out how not to get caught again or how to do a better job of it.

I do actually like the idea of conscripting prisoners into the military, but I'm not sure if that would actually work. Again, it would work with some, but not all. Perhaps a boot-camp style regime, but without combat training, where the prisoners are broken down and then built up again and taught to respect themselves and others, might be one answer. (Think Bad Lads' Army.) The thought of a regimen like that might also act as a deterrent. Daily pre-dawn five-mile runs and drills etc would probably not go down too well with a lot of criminals.

 

[B_theOtherJJ]

Well free room and board, gym, internet access, and lots of HOT SEX. I just might try to get into prison.... Always wanted a hubby named Bubba.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I... and then spend the rest of their sentence being taught or working out how not to get caught again or how to do a better job of it.

Which is exactly what I think they'd think about if mitchymo's idea that they should be isolated to think about their past were implemented.

 

[798686]

*Sends Mitchy down, arbitrarily*

*Then remembers recent thread-kindness, and exonerates him*....

 

[Smooth88]

Mitcyhmo I disagree with you sentiment completely because by nature humans are social beings and if we're confined by ourselves for that long we drive ourselves to insanity or suicide and there are plenty of people who come out of prison mentally worse off than they did going in.

I feel the biggest issue with the penal system is what happens before and after prison. In a lot of cases people go to jail for stupid reasons and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And I feel a lot of it has to do with socio-economic background. I went to a juvenile detention center for thanksgiving one year and a lot of the guys were in there for a possession charge. That includes whether they were conned into buying stolen property or riding in a stolen vehicle.

Also once you go to jail you're very likely to go back because if you go to prison it becomes almost impossible to find even a menial job no matter what the circumstances of your arrest and charges were. And some people get arrested intentionally because its literally the only way to keep a roof over their head.

Another issue I have is that many prisoners tend to come from the same socia-economic background (i.e. poor) where education needs to be improved and in not all but in plenty of cases the family situation is dismal. There are plenty of kids with talent there but its never nurtured or they just don't have the resources to take take their talents to the next level.

The entire system from the educational system (Let's get real many of the education resources are more readily available and promoted to more affluent communities) to when the prisoner is assimilated back into society is flawed. Most people in prison don't want to be in prison and of those I would honestly say most of them want to go straight. But after they're released they're left to fend for themselves while the penal system doesn't do an adequate enough job of education and job placement for post-prison life.

Then again the system is created by politicians who for the most part are out of touch with people's needs and backgrounds.

As much as the constitution and the government likes to preach equality this is fact. Only 2% of people change economic class during their lifetime.

if you were born upper class you're gonna stay upper class.

If you were born lower class chances are you're gonna stay that way.

That's the way the system works like it or not.

 

[EagleCowboy]

Mitchy--
What is with this BS on prison systems and the criminals in them??
The people in them knew the basic rules to society and *CHOSE* to break them.
Federal law states that people in the prisons are not to have more than the poorest person on earth, and they are to have NO rights. They deserve to be there. WHY are you being a bleeding heart and trying to give them back the rights they once had??

Having worked in and around prisons, that 3 meals a day thing? Good luck getting into a prison that actually does that. Most do about once a day. Maybe. The steaks and TV? Pretty much for the guards only. Now many prisons have "accounts" that the prisoners can work to put money in, or someone can put money in it for them so they can have things like cigarettes, etc., but the prisoners actually getting the items are extremely slim. IMO, they should get nothing at all. And that hot sex thing? Well, they better not get caught by the guards at it. It usually doesn't go well if when they get caught.

Many people are under the misconception that prisons are for rehabilitating the inmates. Pretty much not true and left up to the inmates which even if they DID want to rehabilitate, pretty much doesn't happen. (Obviously) As you wanted, the prisoners DO actually reflect on what they've done. Only to work out the flaws as to how NOT to get caught again. That's ALL the reflecting they do. Work out how not to get caught doing what they did, or work out planning something else (and how not to get caught) for when they get out. They clearly know what they did was wrong and pretty much have no remorse over what they did. (extremely few do have remorse) Do they reflect on the fact that it was wrong to do? Of course! Do they care? Nope.

As for the overcrowding, well, that's everyone's fault. When you continuously add more people to the world, logic dictates that you're going to need more prisons. Cold hard truth is: you people are too cheap to pay for it. You want safe places, safe streets, safe neighborhoods, but you continuously refuse to PAY for it. Safety isn't free. You people don't even pay the police officers enough to put up with YOU, let alone risk their lives for you. Don't get me started on the fireman!! They're in the same boat.
What does that say about you?

I wholeheartedly agree that we need to revamp our educational system --without *ANYONE'S* agenda thrown in there-- and make it the best educational system in the world like it once was. It's pretty bad now when a Hollywood movie tosses in a line that's actually the cold, hard truth. "We need our best minds on this! Get India on the phone!" I have a problem with that and you should too.

Now I have a suggestion that should work for anybody that feels sorry for those criminals. In fact, it might work better for everybody. For those of you that feel sorry for those criminals in prisons, we'll put you inside those prison walls, and you, yourself, can give them all the rights you want, but only inside those walls. Let me know how well that works. LOL.

Mitchy, what you SHOULD be doing is championing VICTIM'S rights. As it stands now, you, me, anybody in society has all the rights and privileges that America has to offer. Then a person commits a serious crime like burglary, murder, etc. When that person is arrested, they are stripped of all rights, and given few, specific rights. The victim has NO rights. In fact, the victim always becomes MORE of a victim because of the acts committed against them by the perpetrator because of the system. THAT is what really needs fixing.

End of rant.

 

[mitchymo]

But the solitary model you envision, mitchy, is too costly because of the warehousing nature of the institutions. The ones sending folk there and the ones building them are not on the same page.

All it takes is some thinking men to chat with some architects. The costs should not be an issue cos in the solitary model i envision crime rates will drop and the cost will cover itelf.

Mitcyhmo I disagree with you sentiment completely because by nature humans are social beings and if we're confined by ourselves for that long we drive ourselves to insanity or suicide and there are plenty of people who come out of prison mentally worse off than they did going in.

I feel the biggest issue with the penal system is what happens before and after prison.

I agree that humans 'by nature' are sociable beings, the problem is that those in prisons are there because they are mostly anti-social so it makes little difference whether they are allowed to socialise inside or not. The fact is that in a solitary model inmates can't get into more trouble fighting with other inmates and they cannot pick up tricks of the trade from other inmates so the idea of not implementing such a model on the basis that 'they might spend time thinking how not to get caught next time' is very negative because in the first instance as i've just given, inmates are already able to swap stories and tips without having to spend time thinking. If criminals are in there for stupid mistakes then they are not going to be too bright in their new ideas either i suspect. In the second instance it is not a sociable attitude for a sociable society to cast doubt on other people rather than give benefit of doubt. Perhaps some inmates WOULD use their thinking time to conjure better plans for future crimewaves and no doubt they would be repeat offenders but in a solitary system there will be a lot less repeat offenders because the majority who are not stupid would not WANT to go back to such a lonely place.

Also, to say that the inmates would go crazy or suicidal because of isolation is only a slight chance. Isolation conjures loneliness which can lead to depression which generally leads to deep thinking which logically should lead to remorse. They would'nt be absolutely alone anyway, gaurds, doctors, family visits, legal visits etc. It is a bad idea to worry about the bad feelings that an inmate might get and change the system to look after them because its all part of their punishment, they SHOULD feel miserable, they can have a taste of the feelings they cause for others and which regular people suffer ordinarily for many many other unrelated to crime reasons.

What happens before and after prisons is an extended issue but neither has a deep impact on the way prisons are operated for the better or worse.
This is why things tend to fail because a single issue is stretched to include other issues which are best dealt with as a seperate issue, breaking down a big problem into several smaller ones is easier to solve.

Mitchy--
What is with this BS on prison systems and the criminals in them??
The people in them knew the basic rules to society and *CHOSE* to break them.
Federal law states that people in the prisons are not to have more than the poorest person on earth, and they are to have NO rights. They deserve to be there. WHY are you being a bleeding heart and trying to give them back the rights they once had??

Mitchy, what you SHOULD be doing is championing VICTIM'S rights.

End of rant.

I think you have ME muddled with someone else because my suggestions involve taking away luxeries and making prison a more unattractive place.

Championing victim's rights is again a seperate issue anyway. It has nothing to do with how prison's operate.

 

[helgaleena]

you are an optimist and a visionary, mitchy... keep looking up then.

 

[mitchymo]

you are an optimist and a visionary, mitchy... keep looking up then.

Hahaha, sorry, i've NEVER been called an optimist in my life lol, i'm a right moody git if you don't know me any better.

 

[D_Aston Asstonne]

prison isnt the walk in the park everyone thinks it is.For the incarcerated its like drowning while noone lends a hand.

 

[mitchymo]

prison isnt the walk in the park everyone thinks it is.For the incarcerated its like drowning while noone lends a hand.

I would'nt suggest that it is (just for record) but it is definately a walk when it should be a skulk.

 

[D_Cateryke Cheesysmell]

I think the tent city with chain gangs is a good model, but not suitable for all climates. Hard to say a canvas tent in wintertime Manitoba for example is humane...

 

[rbkwp]

a Final from me
a NZ perspective..
presenting facts, nothing more.

It is suggested the Punishment is .. the sentence
If the sentencing Judge is constrained to dish out lenient Sentences, so be it
Thats the Law, and he cant do a damn thing about it
Sheer Shock, often gets some persons thinking along a righteous road on release
Not excusing the System
I am decrying many aspects of it all tho
Corrections operating on Limited Budgets does not help
Its not there job to ensure the Inmate is 'punished twice/threefold etc..
Often the first thing that dissapears is the Rehabilitation programmes.
Staff wages like anything is a major expenditure
already the Inmates live' off a minimal amouit for food a day..
Penal reform advocates do a fine job, uphill battle no doubt
Overhaul Yes' it would need a few Super Humans to come up with a viable solution
NZ .. and they are beginning to house the inmates in Shipping Containers now
is that Valid Treatment for Humans...?? despite whatever crime they have committed
and what happened to all the buiding codes etc et etc..
No reason to treat Sentenced Criminals in Law, as Sub Human
mmmmmmm ..could go into cost per inmate a day.. but a lil futile really
No Answer have I
enz

How does New Zealand compare? - Corrections Department NZ

 

[Smooth88]

Perhaps some inmates WOULD use their thinking time to conjure better plans for future crimewaves and no doubt they would be repeat offenders but in a solitary system there will be a lot less repeat offenders because the majority who are not stupid would not WANT to go back to such a lonely place.

Also, to say that the inmates would go crazy or suicidal because of isolation is only a slight chance. Isolation conjures loneliness which can lead to depression which generally leads to deep thinking which logically should lead to remorse. They would'nt be absolutely alone anyway, gaurds, doctors, family visits, legal visits etc. It is a bad idea to worry about the bad feelings that an inmate might get and change the system to look after them because its all part of their punishment, they SHOULD feel miserable, they can have a taste of the feelings they cause for others and which regular people suffer ordinarily for many many other unrelated to crime reasons.

What happens before and after prisons is an extended issue but neither has a deep impact on the way prisons are operated for the better or worse.
This is why things tend to fail because a single issue is stretched to include other issues which are best dealt with as a seperate issue, breaking down a big problem into several smaller ones is easier to solve.

Mitchy I love you bro. But I went into this in my post. I don't know how the penal system works in the UK. But I know in the U.S. if you have any sort of felony on your record and especially with today's economic climate YOU WILL NOT be able to find a job. Like murderers and rapist can rot in hell. But what I was talking about are the 17 year old kids who get 5 years for just being inside of a stolen vehicle that they don't know is stolen (it happens a lot more than you think) who will never be able to to do anything else. Most people in jail are not hardened criminals.

The most important part of the rehabilitation part of being in jail is what comes after. Just thinking about what you've done isnt going to solve the fact that you need to keep a roof over your head and earn a living and you can't get a job. And in an employers eyes assault is the same thing as murder. You can't even get a janitorial job if you've been to jail for the smallest thing.

And unfortunately most people lump all criminals into one. While in jails they separate you by the severity and class of crimes. You can ask anyone who's been to jail they don't want to go back and there are programs where people who've been to jail who talk to children and teens about the ramifications of going to jail. Jail is unpleasant no matter what way you spin it. It's not a good place to be. But people who are in jail are not animals. Some are but 90-95% aren't. I'm not being a sympathizer. I've just talked to people. Been to prisons on holidays to bring food. Taken a few Criminal Justice courses. My late grandfather was a correctional officer.

People are just misinformed about what goes on in the system and all the circumstances that arise from the system.

 

[AlteredEgo]

Back in the 80's or 90's doing current events for school, I remember coming across a study or survey (can't remember which now) which implied that the biggest problem with capital punishment, and other attempts to deter crime is that criminals believe they will not get caught. I'm really not sure that the thought "I sure don't want to go back to prison" occurs to many first-time and repeat offenders. However, they simply believe they will get away with their crime. So, what difference will complete solitary confinement for the entire duration of a sentence make except make prisons even more dangerous places for corrections officers to work?