I think there has been a significant decline in the value and expectation of men

petite

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I think Hollywood and fiction is to blame when it comes to the "bad boy" attraction. It's a trope that consistently irritates me. A movie about a nice guy who falls in love with a nice girl where they're nice to each other and happy is boring. No one would watch it. It is far more interesting when the guy who is apparently nice turns out to be flawed and the guy whom everyone has pegged as worthless changes because of a very special woman and ends up not only deserving her love but having many other redeeming qualities. That's a more interesting (if overtold) story. The problem is that in reality I suspect that most assholes who fall in love remain assholes, but Hollywood has filled people's heads with this romantic story that we all know too well. Who wouldn't want to be the woman special enough to do that?

That and a guy wearing a leather jacket often looks sexier than the one wearing the cardigan. Most of the "bad boy" appeal is simply style and straight up attractiveness. The "bad boy" is given the better wardrobe, better hair, is more handsome, and is simply "cooler" in all other aspects other than the behavior that actually defines him as "bad" - drug use, foul language, untrustworthiness, criminal activities, treating women badly, bad tempered, bad grades, etc. If they made the bad boy look like the nice guy, and vice versa, I suspect that there would be a resurgence in interest in "nice" boys - and there wouldn't be any interest at all in the bad boy character if he was fat and covered in acne and awkward and unfunny and dumb.

In reality, a really hot guy who is also nice is well loved by women. TheBF is without a doubt the quintessential "nice guy." I not only had a lot of competition for TheBF's love and attention, I actually lost friends when he chose me because they were jealous. So don't bother giving me any cock and bull about how nice guys aren't appreciated - they are when they're handsome, outgoing, confident, charming, with a great body and a good job.

Regarding men and whether there is a decline in expectations... TheBF tells me that when he takes the baby out in public, he's heaped with positive attention, which he believes is because men aren't actually expected to do that. He believes that the bar for fathers has been set so low that just being seen out in public with his son garners him praise that he really doesn't think he deserves. He tells me that every time people remark about how he's a "good dad." He is a good dad, but they can't actually know that from just seeing him holding a baby. That bar definitely needs to be set higher.
 
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bobg4400

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It is far more interesting when the guy who is apparently nice turns out to be flawed and the guy whom everyone has pegged as worthless changes. The problem is that in reality I suspect that most assholes who fall in love remain assholes, but Hollywood has filled people's heads with this romantic story that we all know too well.

Yeah, the nice guys usually stay nice and the assholes stay assholes. the problem is that it takes a few tries for women to realise this and so the nice guys end up whining about not getting women etc. until a few years later when the women are all tired of the assholes and go for the nice guys.

In reality, a really hot guy who is also nice is well loved by women. TheBF is without a doubt the quintessential "nice guy." I not only had a lot of competition for TheBF's love and attention, I actually lost friends when he chose me because they were jealous. So don't bother giving me any cock and bull about how nice guys aren't appreciated - they are when they're handsome, outgoing, confident, charming, with a great body and a good job.

That's kinda shallow. There's something else wrong with the sentence too but I can't articlulate it correctly.
I hate it when that happens. :mad:

Regarding men and whether there is a decline in expectations... TheBF tells me that when he takes the baby out in public, he's heaped with positive attention, which he believes is because men aren't actually expected to do that. He believes that the bar for fathers has been set so low that just being seen out in public with his son garners him praise that he really doesn't think he deserves. He tells me that every time people remark about how he's a "good dad." He is a good dad, but they can't actually know that from just seeing him holding a baby. That bar definitely needs to be set higher.

Yeah, the bar does need to go a bit higher in general, people seem to get rewarded for doing stuff you'd expect them to do anyway.
 
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petite

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That's kinda shallow. There's something else wrong with the sentence too but I can't articlulate it correctly.
I hate it when that happens. :mad:

I don't think so. I wouldn't seriously get involved with a guy who has no other positive qualities other than being nice, just like I wouldn't date a guy who has no other positive qualities other than just being handsome or having a nice job. One good quality isn't enough.

My point is that most guys who complain that they're nice but no one wants a nice guy are actually suffering from some other problem that makes them undesirable and they're pinning their lack of success on the wrong thing. They don't need to stop being nice, they need to work on not being shy, or not being cowardly about their feelings and pretending to just be friends instead of asking a woman out on a date, or some other reason why they aren't successful. The idea that women actually wholly reject nice guys is absurd, which is what I was trying to say. There are a lot of nice guys who get lucky, but they have more going for them than just "being nice."

Yeah, the bar does need to go a bit higher in general, people seem to get rewarded for doing stuff you'd expect them to do anyway.

It doesn't happen with moms.

This is in direct contrast to how moms are treated out in public with their kids. Frankly, moms are treated like shit. TheBF's comments were regarding the difference in our experiences, which he doesn't think is fair. I agree with him. I like the fact that he gets so much positive attention that he enjoys taking the baby out, but I dislike that there's such a vast difference between his experience and mine and the other moms I know because it says some terrible things about our culture. Also, it sucks for me on a near daily basis.
 
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hypoc8

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So don't bother giving me any cock and bull about how nice guys aren't appreciated - they are when they're handsome, outgoing, confident, charming, with a great body and a good job.

QUOTE]

So I guess if a "nice guy" is average looking, introverted, could loose a few pounds and doesn't work at his dream job then he can't be appreciated?

What a crock of shit!
 

petite

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So I guess if a "nice guy" is average looking, introverted, could loose a few pounds and doesn't work at his dream job then he can't be appreciated?

What a crock of shit!

Yeah, that's totally what I was saying. You got it. :rolleyes:

How does saying that a dreamy guy who is nice is appreciated would mean that the guy you described wouldn't be by anyone?

Well now that I've been misinterpreted, I feel that I have to defend myself.

Of course not. I've dated lots of those guys and loved them to death. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was simply describing TheBF and he's all of those things, but I wasn't saying that a guy who doesn't have every good quality that he has isn't worth dating at all. Sheesh.

Please don't read between the lines looking for something to be offended by. I have thousands of posts and over and over and over again I've talked about my attraction to men of all kinds, which have included introverted men, pudgy men, and men who have not attained their dream jobs. I've fallen in love with those guys - but one of the guys who was overweight was funny and so well read and we could talk all day every day and it would never get boring. He hadn't attained his dream job, but he was working on it and he spent a lot of time volunteering to help others. That's a lot of good qualities there that goes well beyond just "being nice." And there are others. I never said that possessing any flaw made a man undate-able. I was saying that one needs more than just being nice.

What I didn't specifically say was that a lot of men use "nice" to actually describe being the kind of cowardly guy who pretends to be a woman's friend when he actually wants more but he's too afraid to actually make a move, or so shy that they're unable to approach women at all. That's not actually nice. Nice is remembering someone's birthday, not tricking someone into thinking that you only want to be friends. Being shy or lacking courage are things are what will actually prevent a man from being successful with women. I wasn't saying that those guys aren't worthy of dating, but that those qualities make it near impossible for those guys to get dates because they can't bring themselves to ask. Those are usually the qualities "nice" guys need to work on to become more successful with women.

Like I said in the previous post, my point was that women aren't morons who actually dislike nice guys, not that men have to have every good quality possible to be desirable. I was attempting to make a point about how being nice isn't the deterrent guys who complain about "bad boys" make it out to be.
 
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My two cents:
(keep in mind from an "older generation")

IMO, When looking for a lifetime partner,
  • find one that takes pride in himself,
  • treats his mother, sister (or female counterparts) with respect and isn't afraid to show love,
  • is ambitious in his career (but not to the point to neglect family life),
  • and the only place he is wreckless and wild with abandon is in the bedroom...kitchen...den...(you get the point)

The confidence and security (ie, commitment) in your relationship develops over time. The "bad boy" image may be fun to play with... but is not fun for a lifetime partner.

I'm sure there are women that are drawn, by their own personalities, to the bad boy image. But I would think that would be a dangerous relationship from the start...although, I suppose it could work for some...just not me.

I'm not sure we should "just accept" if we are looking for a lifetime relationship. Now, if you are talking about just friends, and people in general, certainly, that is a different subject. But I got the idea you were discussing with your partner and this is about relationships. IMO, it is important for you to know what you expect in a partner (without being overly critical)... basic morals, values, and beliefs.
This is good, FP. :)

Basically how I see things.
 

D_Kitten_Kaboodle

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I would hope the OP would see and understand through this thread that women look for different things in men because we are all different and there is no one particular type. He should be himself and either the girl will love him for who he is or not~
 

hypoc8

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I would hope the OP would see and understand through this thread that women look for different things in men because we are all different and there is no one particular type. He should be himself and either the girl will love him for who he is or not~

Bingo, we have a winner!!
 

Drifterwood

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I would hope the OP would see and understand through this thread that women look for different things in men because we are all different and there is no one particular type. He should be himself and either the girl will love him for who he is or not~

Eight out of ten mothers would still disagree :biggrin1:.

I spend my life in three distinct cultures and they each have a somewhat different take on this issue/question. They do each though have cultural gender expectations and there is definitely competition in each for the supposed best catches by their own definitions.

Personally, I am happy to be in my forties and not needing to give a shit.
 

Drifterwood

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Ok now i'm jealous. Not needing to give a shit seems like bliss.

If I was going to give younger men advice today, it would be not to even think about settling down in any way until you are at least 28, unless that is really you. Go and and find out what you and the world are all about, then decide what you want to do with your life. Don't let others and your culture decide it for you if you can resist.