I was wondering

[madame_zora]

And a very good one! Nice to see you around, Spank. George's posts seem to get progressively angrier, so I can only surmise it is the result of this one experience that has led him to form an opinion about everyone else, which is short sighted, to say the least. Good to see so many come out on the side of true "freedom of choice", sometimes it even means the right to choose somehting other than you!

Oh, thanks for including your views on religion, I think it's important to remember that political, personal and spiritual beliefs cannot be lumped into masses if we are truly to remain open.

 

[GottaBigOne]

That seems to be the problem with a lot of people. Some want tolerance but are unable to tolerate things they don't agree with. It's like the idea of "free will" endowed by God. God says, I give you free will as long as you do what I say. Another way to look at it is I tolerate everything you do as long as you do whatever I agree with. I in now way support absolute tolerance though so don't get me wrong, are we supposed to tolerate the desires of a child rapist? No. Are we supposed to tolerate other people's ideas about morality? To some extent. We can always argue against them, if we feel they are mistaken, but a level of civility should be expected. I am in no way immune to being insensitive to those views in which I do not subscribe. Its a struggle to show respect always to those things you despise and see as "evil." The main thing I saw wrong with Geo's first post is that he seemed to generalize about all those that practice marital sex. This seems to be the one mistake most people make. They see one bad experience and then assume all of those experiences must be bad. If geo were to meet a girl who had lots and lots of pre-marital sex and had it be a horrible experience for her, would he then support abstinence until marriage, because pre-marital sex doesn't work? personally, I think there are two sides to the story. I think waiting for sex until marriage can be a very wonderful thing, or could be a huge mistake. Pre-marital sex could be a wonderful thing, or it could ruin your life. Life is a huge grey area, the only black and white is life and death.


By the way Spank, I don't crink or do drugs, other than nicotine and caffiene, and I get the same shit from my friends as well. the funny thing is they'll sometimes say that I'm missing out on living my life, to which I answer(in my head) "Your the ones trying to escape from it every chance you get." Sobriety can be a wonderful thing, its how we are naturally supposed to experience existence, why escape? The only true escape from life to me would seem to be suicide. Why such the disdain fro life. I'd rather have a horrible life then not life at all.
A quote from "Full Metal Jacket": "The only thing that the dead know is that it is better to be alive."

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Nov 30 2004, 02:27 AM
It's like the idea of "free will" endowed by God. God says, I give you free will as long as you do what I say.

I'm not trying to open another can of religious brouhaha, but that is not what the doctrine of free will says in the least. The point of that doctrine is that we make our own decisions, right or wrong, and are responsible for the outcome resulting from those decisions. God doesn't take away our free will regardless of how we exercise that free will, as you suggest. It's a rebuttal to the notion of predestination, nothing more.

 

[B_RoysToy]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Nov 30 2004, 04:35 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Nov 30 2004, 04:35 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-GottaBigOne@Nov 30 2004, 02:27 AM
It&#39;s like the idea of "free will" endowed by God. God says, I give you free will as long as you do what I say.

I&#39;m not trying to open another can of religious brouhaha, but that is not what the doctrine of free will says in the least. The point of that doctrine is that we make our own decisions, right or wrong, and are responsible for the outcome resulting from those decisions. God doesn&#39;t take away our free will regardless of how we exercise that free will, as you suggest. It&#39;s a rebuttal to the notion of predestination, nothing more.

[post=265307]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

Amen. And thanks to having free will, we can make decisions and profit even when we choose wrongly, learning from experience. Our spiritual growth has to be based on having free will, i.e., choosing between right and wrong. Every time we make the right decision, we have the opportunity to grow, placing good over bad.

Predestination is seen in two different lights. 1) God ordaining happenings and 2)
God knowing the future and what is going to happen, but believing His knowing doesn&#39;t cause the happening. I&#39;m Presbyterian and hold to the second belief that He doesn&#39;t specifically cause anything bad. Since it&#39;s necessary for us to have free will to learn and grow, the world was created to provide such a place.


Excuse the digression. Who will get us back on topic?

 

[ashlar]

Each opinion offered is valid, if not entirely than at least to some small extent. It&#39;s for the indiviual, the recipiant of the opinion, to judge and evaluate for themselvs the validity of each idea and opinion offered to them.

I see no reason to attack one another over these issues when the focus should be on assisting boywonder. While each of us is often tightly bound to our ideas and to often feeling that we are completely right, accurate, and correct (in fact i&#39;m doing it right now), it&#39;s important to remember that there is some amount of truth in each and every idea put forth. None of us are worth any more or any less than any other, reguardless of how convenient it may be to think as such.

Geo: I respect your thoughts and feelings as much as everyone elses and admit to being amused and often in agreement with you. I believe I understand where your comming from and I felt you were merely offering your thoughts and ideas and not trying to force them upon anyone as it would seem some of the others felt that you may have been.

Zora: I&#39;ve read several of your posts as i&#39;ve been lurking and I admire your intellect, spirit, heart, and sense of self. I find you to be a remarkable individual and I hope to have the oppertunity to get to know you better during the course of my posting.

Boywonder: Follow your heart in this and all things. Just be gentile with the lass on the first romp As long as you are patient, communicate, and are very understanding I think things should go brilliantly for you. That is, providing your bride follows the same rules. Heck, for all you know she may give you a surprise your not expecting. Never underestmate a woman.

 

[lacsap1]

Originally posted by boywonder@Nov 27 2004, 10:28 PM
Well here is the thing. In my beliefs and in the local area that I live it IS socially acceptable to only have sex within marriage, between two people who love each other dearly and then make that marriage covanant. It is actually frowned on having sex before marriage. That&#39;s just how my culture and religion is where I live. So basically everyone in my community has almost no sexual experience until they are married, so obviously sex is probably not going to be too great the first time, but from what I hear is the only thing that keeps marriages together sometimes is making your sexual relationship work.

[post=265042]Quoted post[/post]​

We can define free-choice as willing directed by the judgment of reason, both
simultaneously rational and volitional. As it looks your beliefs are influenced by
your religion, community and social circumstances which doesn&#39;t provide the
grounds for the truly free choice. The core of the liberty lies in the judgment of
reason, which influences our own choice and not your local area. Say, you live in
a area where people having "fornication" (=Sexual intercourse between partners
who are not married to each other), could this change your believes?

Also, there is no real evidence in the bible that God didn&#39;t wanting you
to have sex out of marriages. Did you went through the Bible and found nothing
truly to support the &#39;no sex before marriage&#39; rule or is this based on influence?
Others will read the passages and conclude that it does and say don&#39;t do it.
It&#39;s all up to interpretation. What I never found was where Jewish society went
from a polygamous society to a monogamous one. Solomon had many wives and
he was supposed to be favored by God. (And speaking of Solomon, the "Song of
Solomon" is about as sexual and erotic as one can get.) The Bible speaks of
adultery, but not monogamy, so in essence a man can have more than one wife
and therefore not commit adultery.

It is my personal opinion that you should ALWAYS follow your heart and conscience and not rely simply on the bible or your community and social circumstances. DO what YOU feel is right and live free of regrets.

If you and your girlfriend choose to be sexual, PLEASE use birth control. If you choose not to, then the more power to you.

 

[GottaBigOne]

I wasn&#39;t making the point that there was no free-will, I was mearly making a comment on the nature of the doctrine of free will as put forth by many christians. God gives us free will, then tells us that if we choose one way we go to hell, and if we choose the other we go to heaven. My question is: just how free is a choice that has dire consequences such as this?

 

[13788]

Hapi Papi: Well I said I would post... so I&#39;ll post although in my wait, I didn&#39;t expect the number of posts to come with stuff I was going to say. So, why repeat?

Guess I should say, Boywonder, I&#39;m 25, almost 26, and I haven&#39;t so much as kissed. People really don&#39;t understand me and I surely do not understand them, so I guess it&#39;s all right. There is nothing wrong with me because I haven&#39;t had sex by 16 (or 13 if you&#39;re black like I am). I&#39;ve watched everyone around me including family and the best thing for me is to abstain. Now, there are a bunch of other issues I have that also have me waiting, however, being religious or conservative had nothing to do with it. Religion strengthens it, but isn&#39;t the reason. I&#39;m only conservative with certain aspects of my life. I believe this country has conservatism at heart, traditional values in mind, but hypocrisy to the soul.

I decided to keep myself to myself when I was 16 and decided I wouldn&#39;t have kids out of wedlock like my teen parents when I was 11. It was a reaction to my personal feelings than a movement or what&#39;s written in a book. I guess single sex education workes and worked too well. Psychologically I may have shut off my natural feelings and locked up the urges that make others break down, only to place them somewhere that only one person can unlock the vault. Others may think that&#39;s a bad thing but it made my life less dramatic than those lives I&#39;ve witnessed who didn&#39;t have that control. HA&#33; I guess I&#39;d throw a wrench in the idea of those who think having a single parent leads to kids being wild... since I think had my parents had been married and stayed together to raise me, I wouldn&#39;t have had those feelings of anguish, jealousy, and hatred I felt at 11 allowing me to do whatever.

In college I downgraded my beliefs to say I&#39;d have sex if I was in a good relationship (that hopefully would lead to marriage). After I didn&#39;t get in one, meeting people who felt like I do, meeting others who encourage me, and seeing more of the other side, I&#39;m now celibate for life or until marriage. People ask me what if I never find the right one, what if I die a virgin? I say so what if I do? Having sex isn&#39;t as vital as eating or drinking. I&#39;ll survive&#33; I&#39;m prepared to live my life without sex (thanks to other issues). I don&#39;t need anyone to feel bad for me or tell me I&#39;m missing something. I have my reasons and they have their reasons.

Now about your size, Boywonder, I believe you&#39;ve gotten good advice. But be prepared for her to be extra giddy. You may not hurt her at all depending on circumstances. Even if those circumstances come to be or not, don&#39;t be an ass regardless.


Geo, if anything, your friend and her husband needed LPSG back then. Sorry it was too late. I doubt there are tons of similar stories to come to your conclusion.

 

[jonb]

I think Europe&#39;s Jews went to monogamy about the same time that the Church made it mandatory. The Mizrakhim and Ethiopian Jews are both still polygamous, IIRC.

Polygamy&#39;s not as bad as people think. In the culture I was raised in, there&#39;s a trade-off: More children (and more social status) on the one hand, but OTOH your wives can gang up on you if you don&#39;t behave.

 

[jdoe86]

I love playing devils advocate. You get more emotion out of people. They don&#39;t just give the standard response of "oh, that&#39;s great" or "boy that&#39;s swell". You get people to actually choose sides and defend their position. Now if we would do that at the voting booth, then we would be able to get the politicians to listen to us instead of lobbyist&#33; I personally could care less if he has sex before marriage or not. I am just getting tired of the brain dead generic responses to important issues. As for hypocrates... well, look at yourselves and you will find what you seek.


Oh, and what&#39;s with the name calling eyemready? Are you so moved by your opinion that you can&#39;t come up with anything coherent?