"If our flag offends you, i'll gladly help you pack!"

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by D_Andreas Sukov, May 31, 2010.

  1. D_Andreas Sukov

    D_Andreas Sukov Account Disabled

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    Anyone on facebook, especially in the UK, must have seen these groups.

    For those who dont, they are usually full of posts like

    "Yeh, i Fink dat we shud kik out da Pakis cos dey be takin al da benfits init"

    These are fueled by right wing media stories that "immigrants are getting complaining about the St George's Flag and councils are doing it"

    These are of course Bollocks as they know that a story like this will sell papers to our beautifully Xenophobic country.

    What are your views on people flying the flag in the UK?

    Mostly, when i see them on cars i think "Racist, ill-educated, dick head". Unfortunately, 99% of the time, i seem to be right.
     
  2. Joll

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    It's hard to say - a lot of dickheads do fly them, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with being patriotic.

    This. :tongue:
     
  3. flame boy

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    I have always said it's a shame the only time Great Britain becomes patriotic is during the world cup. Recently, I am forever seeing cars with flags on them however this only comes about during the big sporting events where "In-ger-land" are playing.

    Another aspect which saddens me is how the union jack has been taken over as the unofficial symbol of "real England" - the main culprit for this is the BNP who have taken it upon themselves to associate the flag with their beliefs. It seems that St. Georges flag only comes out for the footie and the Union Jack is often used to project an extremely xenophobic British standpoint.

    I'm all for being patriotic, but I think it's sad that a majority of UK people only feel this swell of emotion when it's benign events such as those listed above.
     
  4. D_Tim McGnaw

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    Are you asking about the Union Jack as well as the George's Cross?

    Because the first is somewhat rehabilitated from it's old toxicity which Irish people or people of Irish extraction in Britain sometimes felt uncomfortable with and I don't think anyone really has a problem with people flying it.

    But the George's Cross is a bit different, it has been co-opted by racists and far right groups, meaning that even if someone flies this flag out of pure love of being English without a hint of xenophobia then people do tend to make unfair presumptions about them.

    It's vaguely similar to how the flag of Ulster, the Red Hand, has been co-opted by Unionists and Loyalists in Northern Ireland meaning that some people in the counties of Ulster which are in the Republic rather than the 6 counties in the UK find it difficult to see the flag of the Red Hand without thinking of unpleasant associations.

    National images and symbols always carry a mixture of messages, as a symptom of the fact that most countries have had a chequered history.

    Actually a similar dispute pertains about the Irish Tricolour, it consists of three stripes, Green, White and , Orange, the Green being a symbol of the Republican community and the white being a symbol of peace and the Orange having been a veiled and confusing reference to the Protestant and/or Unionist community. However there have always been hard line catholics unwilling to accept the contribution of the Protestant community (in spite of the fact that many many Protestants have never been Unionists and many of the greatest heroes of the Independence movement have been Protestants) and who choose to regard the Tricolour as containing Green/Republican-Catholic, White/Peace, and Gold/ for the Papacy stripes, which ignore the Protestants completely regardless of their politics and contribution (which btw is out of all proportion to their actual numbers, making them a particularly important and vital group).

    I always find the use of this Green, White and Gold flag or references to the Tricolour as containing a Gold stripe highly dubious and unpleasant. Because the situation which pertains in Northern Ireland where catholics are a minority and have faced marginalisation and exclusion in the past is reversed down here in Ireland.
     
    #4 D_Tim McGnaw, May 31, 2010
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  5. D_Andreas Sukov

    D_Andreas Sukov Account Disabled

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    I was more directly talking about The St George's cross, but Im sure it can apply to both.


    There is a guy who has plasted his front with St george's and put the manifesto of the English Democrats in his window. He has even gone as far to put lions on the roof of his house. Stone Lions that is.

    Considering the English Democrat Manifesto says, "we want our country back", He has shown himself to be racist, but others, you cant tar with the same brush.

    I do find myself getting really angry when i see the flag now. Im from a biased persepective and have been going to anti-EDL demos, so i just see them when i see it.

    Countries and Flags are just dead concepts to me.
     
  6. D_Tim McGnaw

    D_Tim McGnaw Account Disabled

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    I with you on that. :smile:
     
  7. Sergeant_Torpedo

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    The Union Flag and the standard of St George has not been appropriated by the right wing. If my neighbour chooses to fly these during a World Cup or any other time it has nothing to do with me nor anyone else. They are cognizances belonging to us all.
     
  8. ManlyBanisters

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    ST seems to be the only one who knows the correct name of the flag of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the Union Flag, unless fb, lemon, joll and hilaire all happen to be at sea at the moment :biggrin::tongue:

    That said, a lot of what hilaire has said above is what I would have said, had he not already done so.
     
  9. flame boy

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    I'm well known for my love of sea men.

    (How could I resist that one?)
     
  10. D_Tim McGnaw

    D_Tim McGnaw Account Disabled

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    Well now that's a matter of hot dispute among vexillologists, I mean the term Jack is merely an old word for the flag, that it was referred to in times past as "The Jack" or "The Union Jack" or even "His Majesty's Jack" is fairly well attested as far back as the 17th century and that parliament has recognised the usage itself on a numerous occasions is a matter of record. "The Union Flag" is actually less well attested. But you're right that Royal Naval Seamen only refer to the flag as the Union Jack when it's flying at sea and as the Union Flag when it flies (or indeed does not fly for that matter) anywhere else. And it does seem most likely that the name Union Jack became a popular one via it's maritime usage. :wink:
     
  11. Joll

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    Nooooo! :redface:

    Hmmph, you both get a gold star from the EU. To go with your hammer and sickle, hehehe. :wink:

    I think it has been hijacked partially - but everyday people have every right to fly it and feel affection for it. I prefer the Union Jack meself, but each to his own.

    I love a bit of maritime mayhem, me. :wink:
     
  12. alx

    alx
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    I don't need to fly a flag to know im English. Never seen the point in these car flags, just looks chavvy tbh.
    Football has a bad history with hooliganism, Fly our flag in support of a team will automatically reference the flag to football hooliganism.

    Whenever I see the St George Flag I automatically view it as a negative symbol representing hate and violence.

    EDL's fan base is formed from football hooliganism and they use the St George flag, need I say more.

    The union Jack I still see as pretty innocent and patriotic, despite the BNPs choice of logo.
     
  13. B_mitchymo

    B_mitchymo New Member

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    I want a new flag for England....St Georges Cross is so bland.

    I think it should be an aubergine coloured flag (purple) with a red border and a lion in the middle of the England country outline. And it could have its claw sticking out towards Europe. (well you gotta give the xenophobes something)
     
  14. D_Tim McGnaw

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    Hhhmmpphh yourself! Who you callin a worker?? I'll have you know that as an artist who does not work purely in the interests of the revolution I'm a parasite of the working classes who panders to the interests and vanity of the Bourgeoisie. :mad::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::wink:
     
  15. DaveyR

    DaveyR Retired Moderator
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    It's not a good idea to generalize about people's intentions behind flying the George Cross (or any other flag for that matter).

    I know a couple of people who have taken to flying the flag who are not football fans. They certainly are not racist chavs either. I had the opportunity to ask one of them about it only a day or so ago. It seems he is feeling all patriotic after seeing the George Cross around so much. People are too quick to criticise this Country and home in on the negatives. He feels this Country has a lot to offer.

    As someone who has recently returned to England after 5 years away I can understand this sentiment and I appreciate the good things this Country has to offer too.

    There's an awful lot of bullshit around regarding both the George Cross and the Union Flag. Yes some people have dark reasons for flying them but a lot of people are being patriotic. Simple as that. There is also a core of people around who like to get offended on behalf of others. I see these as the most dangerous types.
     
  16. Joll

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    Hmmm, I think we may be able to work with this. :wink:

    Hehehe. :tongue:
     
  17. exwhyzee

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    Flags are symbolic, and as an American I don't know the layers of symbolism that your flags have...but it sounds similar to issues some folks have of the Confederate flag. To those that see the flag as a symbol of southern American pride in the war between the states, its a positive thing. To those who see it as a symbol of oppression of African Americans (and others), its a negative. To that end, its use is embattled here in the American south (the old Confederacy)...where it once flew from public buildings and was paraded on car license plates, beachwear, and bric-a-brac. Today, folks across the entire country broadly see it as a negative and its use has declined as some southern states want to be seen as inclusive for political, tourism and economic reasons rather than exclusive. In our case, the flag symbolizes an historic point of view that is lost to folks who have no personal or genealogical connection to it. The flag is increasingly growing irrelevant.
     
  18. D_Andreas Sukov

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  19. D_Andreas Sukov

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    With my concentration, i find im all at sea more often at not.
     
  20. Joll

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