If someone dislikes femine-men gay or straight does that make them a homophobe?

[B_theaussieone]

not saying i dont like feminine men, i dont care at all. But is it homophobia to verbally attack men based on feminine features they may have? even if your okay with masculine gay men?

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

The simple answer is yes.

 

[monel]

The simple answer is yes.

Though I want to tread carefully, I respectfully think your answer is too simple. If one holds no animosity towards homosexuals but has a "dislike" - for lack of a better word - for men who one perceives as effeminate, I would argue that that individual is not homophobic. After all there are straight men - and I've known a few - who are generally perceived as effeminate. Even if some uncouth and cruel person were to ridicule him solely on the basis of his mannerisms without contemplation of his sexual orientation, I would suggest that person was not necessarily homophobic. Sure he is an ass and I would never excuse his behavior, but not homophobic. Homophobia has a specific meaning and it has nothing to do with the perceived femininity of a man. True, as a practical matter, one may use the feminine mannerisms of a man to fuel the homophobia harbored within, but it does not necessarily follow that one who hates effeminate men is homophobic.

Now please don't attack me for excusing hate or intolerance. I don't. But neither do I agree that feminism in men can be eqauted with homosexuality.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Though I want to tread carefully, I respectfully think your answer is too simple. If one holds no animosity towards homosexuals but has a "dislike" - for lack of a better word - for men who one perceives as effeminate, I would argue that that individual is not homophobic. After all there are straight men - and I've known a few - who are generally perceived as effeminate. Even if some uncouth and cruel person were to ridicule him solely on the basis of his mannerisms without contemplation of his sexual orientation, I would suggest that person was not necessarily homophobic. Sure he is an ass and I would never excuse his behavior, but not homophobic. Homophobia has a specific meaning and it has nothing to do with the perceived femininity of a man. True, as a practical matter, one may use the feminine mannerisms of a man to fuel the homophobia harbored within, but it does not necessarily follow that one who hates effeminate men is homophobic.

Now please don't attack me for excusing hate or intolerance. I don't. But neither do I agree that feminism in men can be eqauted with homosexuality.

Meh you read a thesis into my answer that wasn't there. I did specify that it was a simple answer, so it's not your fault.

The crux of the issue is that certain specific kinds of behaviours are culturally associated with the sexes. In general terms tinkering with these sex-roles and expected behavioural norms has tended to provoke hostility or other forms of negative reaction.

Effeminacy in men has been associated with homosexuality which is in itself a subversion of many culture's traditionally assigned sex-roles and behavioral norms. I agree that there is no actual connection between effeminacy and homosexuality, because any rational person could see that is a fact.

However the reason effeminacy in particular provokes strong reactions in many people is not simply because it is a perceived subversion of sex behavioral norms but because effeminacy has the added traditional (and completely specious) association with homosexuality. The nature of people's reactions to effeminacy are deeply bound up in this false association whether those who have these reactions are even aware of this or not.

The very fact that the same person who reacts negatively to effeminacy in any man may have no such negative reaction to a homosexual man whom they perceive as conforming to culturally assigned gender norms actually proves that the root of this negative reaction is in part homophobic since it shows that so long as a homosexual man is camouflaged and for all intents and purposes can be mistaken for a "normal" and/or "straight" man he is not objectionable.

However the odium of effeminacy is based most commonly on the fact that effeminate men (whatever their sexuality may be) are at some level, perhaps subconsciously, putting some people ill at ease because the effeminacy subverts these people's preconceived notions of the behaviours of the sexes which in turn provokes discomfort surrounding perceptions of a kind of culturally subversive homosexuality which is neither camouflaged nor easily assimilated by those whose preconceptions are particularly deeply rooted.

Essentially if you are discomforted by effeminacy it is because your preconceptions about the sexes are being subverted which in turn sets a in train a range of uncomfortable suspicions about issues to do with sexuality.


It's a fairly well investigated aspect of anthropology, sociology and queer theory. Culturally assigned sex roles relate directly to preconceptions about sexuality.

 

[monel]

Hilaire, your point is well taken and though I do not disregard the practical application of your argument, I am not entirely in agreement with you. You are correct that society clings jealously to its sex roles and does not relinquish them easily. However this does not necessarily translate to homophobia. At oneleast time the workplace was a man's domain. The entry of woman into the workplace presented a threat to many men. It questioned their understanding of what it meant to be a man. In time that passed. Similarly perceived femininity in men raises for some the same questions. This has nothing to do with their attitudes towards gays and it doesn't necessarily support a conclusion that they want "the gays" to look like everyone else so they don't have to know about them.

 

[B_enzia35]

I agree with hillaire. The first answer, not the long winded explanation.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Hilaire, your point is well taken and though I do not disregard the practical application of your argument, I am not entirely in agreement with you. You are correct that society clings jealously to its sex roles and does not relinquish them easily. However this does not necessarily translate to homophobia. At oneleast time the workplace was a man's domain. The entry of woman into the workplace presented a threat to many men. It questioned their understanding of what it meant to be a man. In time that passed. Similarly perceived femininity in men raises for some the same questions. This has nothing to do with their attitudes towards gays and it doesn't necessarily support a conclusion that they want "the gays" to look like everyone else so they don't have to know about them.

Your comparison is faulty, you're comparing activities and occupations to behaviours and personality traits there are subtle but profound differences there. But that aside I'm not really even proposing a view which is unorthodox or novel or of my own invention. The view is as I said fairly fully explored by those who work in the field of study of human behaviour and sexuality. Though naturally there remains some academic and scientific debate on the subject.

 

[monel]

I agree with hillaire. The first answer, not the long winded explanation.

Simplicity does make for an easy life but does not always lead to truth or understanding. Were only Adam and Eve real think of the years of hostility and acrimony we would have been spared.

 

[monel]

Your comparison is faulty, you're comparing activities and occupations to behaviours and personality traits there are subtle but profound differences there.

I disagree. I am comparing perceptions and their impact on the established norm.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Simplicity does make for an easy life but does not always lead to truth or understanding. Were only Adam and Eve real think of the years of hostility and acrimony we would have been spared.

Though of course simplicity is not exclusive of truth or understanding.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

I disagree. I am comparing perceptions and their impact on the established norm.

Yes, you are comparing preconceptions surrounding cultural norms with regard to activities and occupations to preconceptions about behaviours and personality traits. As I say there are subtle but important distinctions between those kinds of preconceptions.

 

[monel]

Though of course simplicity is not exclusive of truth or understanding.

On this we do agree. Though I did qualify my statement by saying it did not "always" lead to truth or understanding.

 

[Gecko4lif]

No it doesnt.

My friend bobby is gay and he HATES feminine guys but given that a large portion of his friends are gay I dont think that makes him a homophobe. Just someone that hates stereotypes.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

No it doesnt.

My friend bobby is gay and he HATES feminine guys but given that a large portion of his friends are gay I dont think that makes him a homophobe. Just someone that hates stereotypes.

Given that this contains two uses of the word "hate" in a context in which that feeling is an irrational one I would have thought it fits rather perfectly into the definition of a "phobia". Whether or not it's homophobia in this case is debatable.

 

[Gecko4lif]

Given that this contains two uses of the word "hate" in a context in which that feeling is an irrational one I would have thought it fits rather perfectly into the definition of a "phobia". Whether or not it's homophobia in this case is debatable.

Hate should fit given that phobias are supposed to be illogical and hate is often time illogical

but at the same time there are distinctions to be had

 

[monel]

Whether or not it's homophobia in this case is debatable.

I think this makes my point.

 

[bimetaldude]

i am bi and masculine. i do not hate feminine guys as friends but as far as a partner goes, i like my man to be manly

 

[B_crackoff]

not saying i dont like feminine men, i dont care at all. But is it homophobia to verbally attack men based on feminine features they may have? even if your okay with masculine gay men?

Of course not - it's not based on sexuality & therefore can't be homophobic. The obverse isn't true either is it, nor when applied to women.

Feel free to insult any guy with man boobs.:biggrin1:, or a cock like a clit:smile: It's only really ever an insult if one doesn't accept oneself anyway - which means that the insultee is just as culpable of having a phobia too.

 

[SR_Ethan Hunke]

I don't agree that it is homophobia. That in and of itself is just a dislike of someone for being gay. Disliking a man for acting feminine is another matter entirely. For example, lets say a guy is gay but he does not act feminine at all. Certain people would be just fine with that concept. However, those very same people could dislike a man for being feminine. In this sense the term gay and feminine are not synonymous. You can be fine with gay men and not be OK with feminine ones.

The reason for disliking feminine men could be because of the stereotype they set for gays who don't act that way. They don't want the current stereotype to be cemented or advanced by such behavior and thus show contempt for those individuals. Which in my opinion makes sense?

Honestly though, there is no solid simple answer to this. Like many other issues, this one is in the gray area.

 

[dolfette]

in my opinion...

not a homophobe, just a scumbag.