If someone dislikes femine-men gay or straight does that make them a homophobe?

D_Tim McGnaw

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Um, I'm not sure what you think I'm talking about but your responses suggests it's not what I'm actually talking about. I said all that needed to be said in my first respone.



:rolleyes: Seriously? You claim that my argument, the "yes" argument, is painted with broad strokes which you seem to find unsatisfactory in some way.

I merely point out that your own "no" argument is painted with equally broad strokes which should presumably also dissatisfy you. Apparently that's not the case. This only leads me to believe your "no" argument is bullshit since you clearly haven't applied the same standard to it as you have to the opposing one.
 
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D_Tim McGnaw

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I would like to think this goes without saying.



Does it really? The whole OP sounds vaguely like someone seeking licence to be abusive to someone for being effeminate with the assurance that doing so is considered by some (perhaps many) as not homophobic. Or alternatively someone who having abused someone for being effeminate and been called out for homophobia on that account is seeking assurances that their behaviour does not carry the especial stigma associated in many circles with that accusation.
 
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monel

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Does it really? The whole OP sounds vaguely like someone seeking licence to be abusive to someone for being effeminate with the assurance that doing so is considered by some (perhaps many) as not homophobic. Or alternatively someone who having abused someone for being effeminate and been called out for homophobia on that account is seeking assurances that their behaviour does not carry the especial stigma associated in many circles with that accusation.

Hmm. I didn't get that from the original op. I understood the question to be an academic exercise. Either way I would still like to believe that it goes without saying that ridiculing harassing, assaulting or physically abusing someone for who they are is never acceptable and that of course is not limited just to instances of homophobia.
 

luka82

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not saying i dont like feminine men, i dont care at all. But is it homophobia to verbally attack men based on feminine features they may have? even if your okay with masculine gay men?
Yes, it is!
And gay men should be thankful to effeminate men cause we wouldn`t even be talking about gay rights now if it weren`t for them!
Effeminate gay men have always been the victims of hate crime towards the gays, cause they have always been ' so obviously gay'!
 

Endued

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:rolleyes: Seriously? You claim that my argument, the "yes" argument, is painted with broad strokes which you seem to find unsatisfactory in some way.

I merely point out that your own "no" argument is painted with equally broad strokes which should presumably also dissatisfy you. Apparently that's not the case. This only leads me to believe your "no" argument is bullshit since you clearly haven't applied the same standard to it as you have to the opposing one.

Dude is your brain still in holiday mode?! Rejecting a generalisation is not a generalisition, come on.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Dude is your brain still in holiday mode?! Rejecting a generalisation is not a generalisition, come on.



Can you read? How much clearer can I make it, your own argument is a generalisation. You actually engaged in the same form of generalisation as you reject. In what world do you live in which it is somehow magically impossible to make a generalisation in rejecting another generalisation?

The very fact that your argument is based upon the wild generalisation that you don't see a solid link between effeminacy and homosexuality meaning that hating effeminacy cannot be homophobic, in spite of the fact that millions of people do make that association (wrong though they may be) is the great big chunk of reality your argument generalises out of the equation.


And don't presume to patronise me again, it makes you look extremely foolish.
 
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Endued

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Can you read? How much clearer can I make it, your own argument is a generalisation. You actually engaged in the same form of generalisation as you reject.

And don't presume to patronise me again, it makes you look extremely foolish.

You're smarter than this hilly. I'll put this down to a brain fart and move on.
 

hockeysweat

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Yes, it is!
And gay men should be thankful to effeminate men cause we wouldn`t even be talking about gay rights now if it weren`t for them!
Effeminate gay men have always been the victims of hate crime towards the gays, cause they have always been ' so obviously gay'!

THANK YOU! It was limp-wrists, drag queens, and bulldykes who fought back at the Stonewall Inn and the Toronto Bathhouses and kept fighting through decades of marginalization, derision, violent attacks, and legal persecution so we could ALL enjoy our civil rights.

Endued, Hilaire, get the fuck in the pool. I'm jackin' off all alone in here.
 

D_Martin van Burden

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We need to keep in mind at how preferences for certain personality traits, mannerisms, and culture might emerge based on preconceived notions and evaluations of those traits, mannerisms, and culture. Being a recipient of the racial side of this issue in the past, I have been irritated (and now I just laugh it off) when people bend over backwards to state that, yes, they have racial preferences in the partners they choose to date while simultaneously stating that they aren't, in fact, racist.

You can look at this one of two ways -- the first is simple and the second one is not.

The first approach says that we all have varying degrees of desire for social distance depending on the groups we interact with in daily life. People desire social intimacy on the basis of some characteristics like gender, mannerisms, culture, and so on with some groups, while other groups evoke greater social distance. So, no matter what dimension you're looking at, people may desire different levels of social distance from people of certain ethnic or cultural backgrounds. Given that this ultimately reflects a preference to which everyone is entitled, there's no problem here.

On the other hand, people exhibit only so much tolerance for being rejected on the basis of characteristics that they can't work on -- like being of a certain race or having a certain sexual orientation. And colloquially, we are comfortable with the idea of being authentic, that we shouldn't have to act a certain way in a certain setting especially if doing so is in opposition to how we see ourselves. Therefore, it's unfair to subject someone to your preferences especially if those preferences can't be met (whether it's due to genetics or biology or differences in taste).

How do you reconcile the two?

I think honesty is a good place to start. Whether informed by the beauty myth or the media or television or skinny bitches gracing the covers of magazines or what have you, we are subtly and not so subtly reminded of what constitutes "acceptable" looks and behavior. Sometimes this is in direct opposition to social ideals like embracing people's differences or treating everyone equally. At the end of the day, you suck for having the preferences that you have because holding them means denying someone the quality of your time, your friendship, whatever. And I ultimately have the right to tell you to go to hell if you don't like how I look or how I dress or how I act; that's fine.

But deeper than that, if people get hung up on effeminate men or butch women, we have to try to figure out what really drives this sort of discomfort. Do I get scared of effeminate men because if I don't threaten to hit them people will think I'm gay? Do I get unnerved around butch women because I'm accustomed to women behaving all giggly and flirty? Am I insecure about these things? And, if so, why? And how can I move on from this problem if I see it as a problem?

Just as a rule of thumb, I usually don't let one indicator of something be proof positive that someone is really a certain way or exemplifies a certain behavior. That makes for bad science in my field. On the other hand, I trust that people will be just as self-analytical and reflexive in being honest about their behavior; it's easier to do this than maintain delusions.