If ur gay and "out" did u "come out" or....

[ruggerkit28]

coming out is a continuing process - you are constantly making new friends, work colleagues and so on.

i first mentioned to close friends and the reply was usually 'yea, we realized ages go, want another drink, now what were we talking about'

similar reaction from brother, parents just started to assume it, never really 'came out' to them (they have a number of friends who are gay - mother would often say the "Ralph and his companion Hugh are coming to lunch". Met a couple of guys who were obviously
my boyfriend at the time and were completely OK about it.

now, i let people know that i have a partner (in the UK this assumes a same sex partner) quite early on, and most people are pretty cool with it.

 

[thadjock]

well im glad to see im inspiring at least someone

quick question to you all, did u wait till you were out of home/self supportive etc?

ya i thought it might help

and no i didnt' i was bringing home boys (and a few girls) since my teens, my dad is military and i think he just adopted an informal don't ask don't tell policy. my youngest brother was the first to have any hard knowledge of my wide ranging sexual interests.

 

[rbkwp]

AGREE with the Op on that
---I never felt the need to tell anybody or make it "official" , so i never had that angst or pressure, i just did what i wanted and let other people figure me out on their own terms.---

After a little maturity set in i felt most folk close to me (Parents and Siblings) pretty well knew my preferences,so really i never felt a need to Come Out' as they say..
Dad being old school Chinese tried the Matchmaking game a fair bit when we were in China but i was convinced he knew my preferences..i admired him for trying...and still did not feel the need to Come Out...mainly because i was not 100% sure anyway.
-a % of preferences is a little different to full on Knowing huh'
Never regretted my decision on that...most folk are far too polite to enquire re such..suited me .. and perhaps them.
Worked out well for the odd occasion i did have a relationship with a woman...never felt a need to try and justify..why & what,s a happening...re Gay Str or Bi.
I did not know fully and still dont .. to some degree.
The odd persons who did ask .. from memory..funnily, were a couple of Women who needed to Know...they apparently had the hots for me....silly ladies..but then again of course, not there fault
All in all its been GOOD...no complaints from this fella'
enz

 

[thadjock]

now, i let people know that i have a partner (in the UK this assumes a same sex partner) quite early on, and most people are pretty cool with it.

this brings up a side issue i've never come to a resolution for:

I never know what to call the person I'm having a relationship with.

i've used most of these at some point, but none of the terms really feels like it fits,

boyfriend seems too adolescent,
partner seems too business like, but probably the most universal and least offensive to the widest range of people.
lover seems like it's all about sex
friend seems like ur dodging the truth
better half seems too suburban hetero
roommate doesn't really cover it even if u are living together
i like "mate" as in the british or aussi sense, but it could be interpreted as in animal kingdom "mate" and "mating" again back to sex.
i guess if ur in a state where u can be married "husband" works but it too sounds a little suburban hetero at first take.

 

[NCbear]

I use "life partner" and people generally get what I mean. :smile:

When I was 18, I came out to my parents. My mother (a former nurse who acts like a hard-boiled lesbian) asked me when I wanted my HIV test, and my father (a more gentle, academic-professor type) told me he was sorry for me because of the way others would treat me.

My mother has been the one who's the most obstreperous in not wanting to deal with the truth of anything, much less her sons' sexuality (or sexualities, really--two of her sons are gay but masculine and two are straight but effeminate). She hasn't wanted to meet any of my four life partners until this most recent one, and him only after hearing about him for three years (we've been together for five years).

My father told me when I was 19 that he knew it was just a phase. I asked him how he thought he knew that, and he said he went through the same phase. Now, he denies that we ever even had that conversation, but another brother was in the car at the time and remembers every word. So. I think he is one of those bisexual men who got married in the 1950s and early 1960s in order to fit in, but who still has sexual desires involving men (or at least desires for emotional intimacy involving men).

NCbear (who's not a flamer, but who's out to everyone who matters :tongue

 

[scottredleter]

I told the Army i was gay. then wrote to all my family and friends. I kind of busted the hinges off the closet door. I was brought to the MP station where I was arrested, finger printed, investigated, restricted and then finally allowed to get the fuck out of there... it took about 6 months. It wasn't that bad, because it was finally off my chest and i used to sneak out to Louisville and go to my first gay bars. It was a riot.

 

[2322]

I told the Army i was gay. then wrote to all my family and friends. I kind of busted the hinges off the closet door. I was brought to the MP station where I was arrested, finger printed, investigated, restricted and then finally allowed to get the fuck out of there... it took about 6 months. It wasn't that bad, because it was finally off my chest and i used to sneak out to Louisville and go to my first gay bars. It was a riot.

I wonder what would happen if everyone in the military did that? Pick a day and have one mass coming out day for military personnel and everyone who was gay just came out en masse. I wager it would send one hell of a message to the people of this country and Congress that NO ONE in the armed forces should be taken for granted.

Thank you for your service and as a fellow citizen I'm ashamed you were treated like that.

 

[Lex]

this brings up a side issue i've never come to a resolution for:

I never know what to call the person I'm having a relationship with.

i've used most of these at some point, but none of the terms really feels like it fits,

boyfriend seems too adolescent,
partner seems too business like, but probably the most universal and least offensive to the widest range of people.
lover seems like it's all about sex
friend seems like ur dodging the truth
better half seems too suburban hetero
roommate doesn't really cover it even if u are living together
i like "mate" as in the british or aussi sense, but it could be interpreted as in animal kingdom "mate" and "mating" again back to sex.
i guess if ur in a state where u can be married "husband" works but it too sounds a little suburban hetero at first take.

I use husband. That is what he is to me--my husband--regardless of whether we can be legally married in my state or not.

Oh, I came out in 2006 after realizing (over a few years) that I was not straight. I am one of those more "rare" people who did not have a gay awakening during until later in life (post-30). I went through what they call "transitional bisexuality" for about 1.5 years and then my attraction to women just dissipated.

Mom has been great; dad has been abysmal. I would not change a thing. I have awesome kids, step-kids (my hubby's), a great man and great friends.

There is a rather long thread that I started (At that time) that captures the process I went through (if anyone is interested):
http://www.lpsg.org/28570-again-coming-out.html?highlight=coming

 

[thadjock]

I use husband. That is what he is to me--my husband--regardless of whether we can be legally married in my state or not.

Oh, I came out in 2006 after realizing (over a few years) that I was not straight. I am one of those more "rare" people who did not have a gay awakening during until later in life (post-30).

ya i think husband probably is the term of highest respect for your partner and I agree rightly describes the relationship regardless of the variation of state statutes.

and i think your late realiazation is more rare, but not that uncommon. I know a guy who claims he never had a clue he might be into guys till he was 18 and went to college. it's like going to a foreign country and realizing some people DO drive on the other side.

glad your situation is good now, whatever road u took to get there, and thanks for the link to your thread, you're a good writer, and express urself well, based on that alone there's no question ur gay...

 

[mitchymo]

I got involved with a guy when i was 18 who then outed me to a couple who happened to be one of my friends parents. They encouraged me to tell my best friend who then told the son and daughter of the couple i mentioned. I then found myself in a lovely place where all my friends would tell other friends or anyone else that they felt needed to know so that i would'nt have to do it, i did'nt ask them to but it did'nt matter to me.
I told my sisters two years later and my mum another three months after that. I find workmates find out from other workmates but am happy when i get to say it first because the more i say 'I am gay' the happier i feel about being myself.

 

[dc46064]

This is a great tread and love the talk so far. You guys are funny. I am 49 years old and gay. Things in the United States, and really bad in the Mid-West on anything to do with gay. Where I live in Indiana they dont even talk about the gay pride parade when it happens.

I knew I was gay from very early on. The first sexual thought that I can remember was kindergarten. When we lined up to take a leak as a group, there was a boy named Jack Green. When he took a leak, he always pulled his pants alway to the floor instead of using his fly. I always made sure that I was behind him every day. I loved to look at the dimples on his ass. Well lets get to oming out

I am so glad that it is a little better for young people today. From kindergaten to 8th grade I was in a Private Baptist Church school, it was rough. The only talk of being gay was bad. I always kept it to myself. Figured if anything like that came out they would kill me. It was that bad. During private school I didnt have any girl friends. I was in sports and always had some form of work and church took up the rest of my time. I was the tallest kid in school when I was young. Dont know what happend , I stopped really growing at 9. By that time I was 5'6" and have the dick I have know. I started puberty at 8. Grew 1 foot in a year and was finished by 9. I had a relationship with a Sunday school teacher from 9-13. He said all men have a little fun on the side , but just never speak of it. He was 23. WE had a blast for that time. I really could not go many places, but could always go to my sunday school teahers house. Dont get me wrong, I knew what I was doing by that time. I loved men. From 13 to 17 I had sex with 3 men. It always was a drunk situation and was never spoke of again. They all had girl friends . I figured my Sunday school teacher was right. Men have a little fun on the side and never talk about it. I really didnt know of any gay situation growing up. I didnt even know of gay people being out or gay bars till I was 23. In high school I didnt date any girls. I was the oldest of eight and 7 years older then my next brother. Freshenman year I had a full time job, stocking shelves at the grocery store. I had sports so there was time to go out with the guys, really not anything else. I was called down to the office one day. The dean aked if I would carry around a box . This box was hooked to a phone line. It went to a sick girls named Suzanne. I had 5 of the six classes she had. She had Mono and was home ill. I went to her house or the hospital once a week to pick up her home work to take back to school. I was 16 at that time. I had not dated any girls and not had sex with any yet. When I was in High School there was a dance that the girls asked the guys. I think it was called a "Sadey Hawkins Dance". I was asked by "3: girls. One of them was Suzanne, the sick girl. My mother found out and told me to go, that it was part of growng up and I had to go. I told her that I didnt want to but she insisted. I choose the sick girl named Suzanne. After the dance all guys that I knew where going to a private place to go "Parking" . Since I knew these guys, I knew that I had to go to fit in, so I did. When we went parking, the sick girl asked me to fuck her. I didnt ask, but she did. It was ackward for me. But I figured that I have never had sex with a women, so this would tell me if I was gay or not. On the way home I had some real deep thoughts. I thought " where was the fire works". It wasnt like it was with men. I really knew at that time I was gay. My family was " Church" people. Sex was never spoke of. I didnt know any thing about birth control at all. Actually I thought that there was a old saying, " 3's a charm". I thought that you had to cum in a women 3 times at once to make her pregnant. The sick girl came to me on monday after the dance and asked me when we where going to go out again. I told her that we where not going out again, She was pissed. 4 weeks later she came to me and said she missed her period . WE had a test down from a doctor and she was. Boy, that day changed my life forever. With coming up in private school , I was taught one thing, marry her. So I did. What a mistake. There went law school for me and a very hard life. I was on a trip with my father. Just him and I . We went to his home place, Alabama. This is way back in the sticks, if you know what I mean. We stopped at one of his cousins house and there was a 21 year old girl. My father asked where was her husband. She stated that she didnt have one. My father asked why. She staed that all the goods ones are taken and the rest fuck each other. I thought I would never hear that, especially not back here. On the way back to the hotel my father asked me why I was so shocked that there was gay people back there. I told him if it was Chicago, New York, San Fransico I would under stand. He cam back with, so you think that gay people only live in big citys. So I thought for a minute. I guess that sounds dumb. My father stated that there was gay people every where. He then stated that he didnt understand why gay people just couldnt be gay nand be happy, just like myself. I was so shocked that I couldnt even speak! The whole way back to the hotel I didnt even talk. I didnt know what to say. I thought that if my father found out he would kill me. When we got back to the hotel I went straight for the shower to avoid him, I didnt know what to say. I got out and we went to dinner. We started talking about other thing then he aked me, " are we going to finish the gay talk or what". I was shocked again. I asked him if he thought I was gay. He said yes. What a shock again. I didnt know what to say. My father said that I needed to be happy in my life, life is short. Well that is what kept me on the path I was on, my father. I was married to the first wife for 12 years, the second 2 years. When I went home, I packed my things and moved out and started a divorce. My father is what brought me out of the closet. He is one of my best friends to. It made us closer. It broght me on the path that I found my partner. Him and I have been with each other for 14 years know. He is the love of my life and I am happy with that part of my life, I am lucky. Sorry it was so long, but my coming out was a real long process. Thanks guys!

 

[2322]

This is a great tread and love the talk so far. You guys are funny. I am 49 years old and gay. Things in the United States, and really bad in the Mid-West on anything to do with gay. Where I live in Indiana they dont even talk about the gay pride parade when it happens.... Sorry it was so long, but my coming out was a real long process. Thanks guys!

Wonderful post and a great story. No need to apologize for anything and thank you.:smile:

 

[D_Smidley Smelliepits]

Congrats dc46064! Must say, a really nice story...

 

[rbkwp]

Congrats dc46064! Must say, a really nice story...

I sure endorse the above
I am SO HAPPY for you
Cheers and Thanks heaps for sharing an enlightening experience of life dc.
enz

 

[thadjock]

I told the Army i was gay. then wrote to all my family and friends. I kind of busted the hinges off the closet door. It was a riot.

now that takes BALLS.

u got my respect, always admire dudes with that "fuk it" attitude, but hangin with you would be dangerous, since i tend to piss gas on any fire i see.

i also agree with jason, it would be a gratifying shock to the world to see every gay US military guy/girl stand up and demand to be respected for who they are.

I hope Obama shows he has the balls to repeal DADT, and the joint chiefs have the balls to make it work.

 

[mitchymo]

This is a great tread and love the talk so far. You guys are funny. I am 49 years old and gay. Things in the United States, and really bad in the Mid-West on anything to do with gay. Where I live in Indiana they dont even talk about the gay pride parade when it happens.

I knew I was gay from very early on. The first sexual thought that I can remember was kindergarten. When we lined up to take a leak as a group, there was a boy named Jack Green. When he took a leak, he always pulled his pants alway to the floor instead of using his fly. I always made sure that I was behind him every day. I loved to look at the dimples on his ass. Well lets get to oming out

I am so glad that it is a little better for young people today. From kindergaten to 8th grade I was in a Private Baptist Church school, it was rough. The only talk of being gay was bad. I always kept it to myself. Figured if anything like that came out they would kill me. It was that bad. During private school I didnt have any girl friends. I was in sports and always had some form of work and church took up the rest of my time. I was the tallest kid in school when I was young. Dont know what happend , I stopped really growing at 9. By that time I was 5'6" and have the dick I have know. I started puberty at 8. Grew 1 foot in a year and was finished by 9. I had a relationship with a Sunday school teacher from 9-13. He said all men have a little fun on the side , but just never speak of it. He was 23. WE had a blast for that time. I really could not go many places, but could always go to my sunday school teahers house. Dont get me wrong, I knew what I was doing by that time. I loved men. From 13 to 17 I had sex with 3 men. It always was a drunk situation and was never spoke of again. They all had girl friends . I figured my Sunday school teacher was right. Men have a little fun on the side and never talk about it. I really didnt know of any gay situation growing up. I didnt even know of gay people being out or gay bars till I was 23. In high school I didnt date any girls. I was the oldest of eight and 7 years older then my next brother. Freshenman year I had a full time job, stocking shelves at the grocery store. I had sports so there was time to go out with the guys, really not anything else. I was called down to the office one day. The dean aked if I would carry around a box . This box was hooked to a phone line. It went to a sick girls named Suzanne. I had 5 of the six classes she had. She had Mono and was home ill. I went to her house or the hospital once a week to pick up her home work to take back to school. I was 16 at that time. I had not dated any girls and not had sex with any yet. When I was in High School there was a dance that the girls asked the guys. I think it was called a "Sadey Hawkins Dance". I was asked by "3: girls. One of them was Suzanne, the sick girl. My mother found out and told me to go, that it was part of growng up and I had to go. I told her that I didnt want to but she insisted. I choose the sick girl named Suzanne. After the dance all guys that I knew where going to a private place to go "Parking" . Since I knew these guys, I knew that I had to go to fit in, so I did. When we went parking, the sick girl asked me to fuck her. I didnt ask, but she did. It was ackward for me. But I figured that I have never had sex with a women, so this would tell me if I was gay or not. On the way home I had some real deep thoughts. I thought " where was the fire works". It wasnt like it was with men. I really knew at that time I was gay. My family was " Church" people. Sex was never spoke of. I didnt know any thing about birth control at all. Actually I thought that there was a old saying, " 3's a charm". I thought that you had to cum in a women 3 times at once to make her pregnant. The sick girl came to me on monday after the dance and asked me when we where going to go out again. I told her that we where not going out again, She was pissed. 4 weeks later she came to me and said she missed her period . WE had a test down from a doctor and she was. Boy, that day changed my life forever. With coming up in private school , I was taught one thing, marry her. So I did. What a mistake. There went law school for me and a very hard life. I was on a trip with my father. Just him and I . We went to his home place, Alabama. This is way back in the sticks, if you know what I mean. We stopped at one of his cousins house and there was a 21 year old girl. My father asked where was her husband. She stated that she didnt have one. My father asked why. She staed that all the goods ones are taken and the rest fuck each other. I thought I would never hear that, especially not back here. On the way back to the hotel my father asked me why I was so shocked that there was gay people back there. I told him if it was Chicago, New York, San Fransico I would under stand. He cam back with, so you think that gay people only live in big citys. So I thought for a minute. I guess that sounds dumb. My father stated that there was gay people every where. He then stated that he didnt understand why gay people just couldnt be gay nand be happy, just like myself. I was so shocked that I couldnt even speak! The whole way back to the hotel I didnt even talk. I didnt know what to say. I thought that if my father found out he would kill me. When we got back to the hotel I went straight for the shower to avoid him, I didnt know what to say. I got out and we went to dinner. We started talking about other thing then he aked me, " are we going to finish the gay talk or what". I was shocked again. I asked him if he thought I was gay. He said yes. What a shock again. I didnt know what to say. My father said that I needed to be happy in my life, life is short. Well that is what kept me on the path I was on, my father. I was married to the first wife for 12 years, the second 2 years. When I went home, I packed my things and moved out and started a divorce. My father is what brought me out of the closet. He is one of my best friends to. It made us closer. It broght me on the path that I found my partner. Him and I have been with each other for 14 years know. He is the love of my life and I am happy with that part of my life, I am lucky. Sorry it was so long, but my coming out was a real long process. Thanks guys!

Good post.

Just one thing, your teacher is right about having fun on the side and not talking about it, especially if they are peado's.

 

[midlifebear]

Not only did I have to come out when I was a teenager, I'm still having to "out" myself. When The Squeeze proposed marriage the year same sex marriage was made legal in Buenos Aires (the capital, not ALL of Argentina) I sort of took it lightly. When he moved to Barcelona with me my friends insisted that we do the official marriage again in Spain. So, on the second round of too much partying on cava (Spain's champagne method white wines) a friend who was a professional photographer took tons of photos. I sent my nieces e-mails that included photos of the main event -- The Squeeze and I sucking face. Amusingly, my subsequent e-mails started bouncing back as "undeliverable."

A few months ago when I was spending too much time dealing with business stuff in the USA my brother showed up at my ranch. He was "being nice" hoping that I'd leave my giant 4x4 pickup with him until my next return to the USA (which won't be for a loooooong time). My brother is a devout mormon. So, his looking for something for nothing was expected. I turned him down. He was pissed and insisted that I was worthless (at least to him) and that I didn't even have the decency to see his grand children.

I had to stay overnight at a hotel in SLC to catch a flight to Alabama so I could get on a flight to Mexico City and then to Oaxaca. I had mentioned this to a friend who is a Realtor in Nevada. She happened to talk to my brother and told him I'd be in SLC. He showed with his daughters, their husbands, a hoard of rug rats and a "new" baby the evening I checked into the airport hotel. I wouldn't let them into my room (yea gods!). I felt cornered. I begrudgingly told them I'd meet them in the hotel restaurant.

During this unwanted family fest one of by bother's sons-in-law asked why I lived in Spain. So, I told him. This included a serious lecture on the fact that, at 65 years-old, I'm still as gay as the day I was born. It's not a cold. I won't "get over" it. It's not catching. "And when the fuck will you get it in your heads that I'm not interested in you or your children unless your willing to accept my husband?" Some gasps and sighs were volleyed back along with counter lectures on how homosexuality is a sin equal to murder or pedophilia and how I was going to Hell. Despite what mormons believe, families are not forever. I was kicked out of mine when I was 16.

When I made it to Mexico City I had to wait around for The Squeeze to show up a day or two later before driving to Oaxaca. This gave me time to e-mail/call the attorneys who handle my USA, Europe, and Argentina holdings and "Living Trusts", and pay them to once again send copies of my Will and Living Trusts to the twin nieces and my brother with the parts in bold and underlined where it specifies they are not to inherit a damn thing because I have, in my opinion, disowned them. In addition, there are better people and non-profit organizations that need the money from my liquidated assets -- much more than they do. Still, I'm told by my Nevada attorney that they can try to attach my property after my death. All the more reason to sell all of my USA holdings and relocate assets overseas. Now, there's a good reason to come back and haunt the living!:smile:

And just the other day I had the misfortune of running into a holier-than-thou 'Mericuhn who is down here trying to improve her pitiful Spanish. When I introduced The Squeeze as my "esposo" she had to repeat the word as a question two or three times. Turns out that just our existence is enough to insult her fundamentalist christian world view and she's become a pain in our ass ever since. She has volunteered to work with the poor in the outlying pueblos for two months. But it seems she can't work with homosexuals. Unlike her, The Squeeze and I are not spreading our personal beliefs. Were just here doing what we normally do. This "very special person" tried to lobby the director of our small loans program to get rid of me and The Squeeze. She was told that me and The Squeeze were the primary benefactors of the program: we started it with our own funds. It's too bad she didn't check the names of those of us on the board of our organization before bringing her fear and hate into the middle of what we're trying to do in this part of Mexico. Then again, it's too bad she was raised to be so clueless. This is a general trend I have noticed with all people who profess to be caring, giving, understanding, and especially those who insist they are inspired to live "christ-like" lives. Yeah. Sure. You bet.

Ironically, despite the deeply ingrained sense of machismo in Mexican culture, The Squeeze and I are accepted quite well. Except for wary 'Mericuhn retirees, we have yet to encounter outright hostility from the locals. I'm sure it exists. We just haven't experienced it.

Anyway (ramble, ramble, ramble) what is really too bad is that my mormon relatives are still taught that homosexuality is evil; the work of the devil! Same goes for any religion or belief system that teaches anyone to hate any group simply because a person is different. I can tell you, however, that I long ago learned it is best to cut one's losses and just move on. Life is rather blissful for me and The Squeeze without the interference of my brother or nieces. One might say, almost perfect. Why bring shit into our lives? Even The Squeeze's WAY catholic mother accepts me more than when we first hooked up.

Still, I always make sure that all new acquaintances know that I'm as gay as I can be when I meet them. No reason to lead anyone on. And it's always best to know who your real enemies are.

So, good luck with that, everyone.:smile::smile::smile:

 

[Brensta]

I guess the thing about a post like this is everyone is so unique that everyone will do this a different way.

I've always loved both men and women, but seeing as I'm a bottom when I'm with a man, it's a very different experience to being with a woman. I enjoy being with and looking at both, but I do gravitate in my percentages depending on the person i'm attracted to. I was with a woman with a few years before my current relationship, and at the time, I definitely enjoyed checking out women more than men. Now.. its reversed, but I think I might swing depending on the person im with.

I knew both my parents would be quite good with it. I knew in the end they would just want whatever makes me happy, and I think I was fortunate enough to know to family name will still get carried on whether or not I have kids. When I told them they were both a bit shocked, but in the sense that they were forced to confront something they kind of knew but just did not acknowledge.

To this day they have both been great about it, and although I know my mother still hopes for grankids, the main thing she wants is my happiness.

 

[thadjock]

Still, I always make sure that all new acquaintances know that I'm as gay as I can be when I meet them. No reason to lead anyone on. And it's always best to know who your real enemies are.

So, good luck with that, everyone.:smile::smile::smile:

u lead an amazing life mr bear. book publishers and movie producers should be paying attention. someday i want to hear more about your small loans program.

I don't usually start out with "i'm gay deal with it asshole" but I don't lead people on either.

I will say there's little more gratifying than seeing the reaction that someone whom i've gotten to know pretty well, usually a work associate when they discover I'm dating a guy.....like the master card ad says "priceless"

I don't withold information intentionally but it's amazing that almost everyone "sizes" you up and makes preconceived judgments about who and what you are in their minds without ever bothering to think it might be otherwise. people project what they need u to be i think, it's fun to reorganize their thoughts.

 

[Brensta]

I don't withold information intentionally but it's amazing that almost everyone "sizes" you up and makes preconceived judgments about who and what you are in their minds without ever bothering to think it might be otherwise. people project what they need u to be i think, it's fun to reorganize their thoughts.

Yeah but its amazing how many people still have preconcieved notions on how to spot a gay man. One of my best friends is a very fashion conscious flirt with quite a few feminine mannerisms but is as straight as a nail.