If you had the Chimp Attack injuries, would you want to live?

[D_Hyacinth Harrytwat]

My exact thought.
When these situations are distant, you can easily say life would not be satisfying or worthwhile.
But when a decision to die would extinguish your life today ...

If only euthanasia was legal then this decision would actually have two options, not including suicide.

 

[Flashy]

That may well be the case, but the fact is that from time to time, chimps do carry out vicious,often lethal attack on other primates, be they chimps, baboons or humans. Just Google "chimp attack" for more information. The bottom line is chimps are not pets.

i know they are not pets, nor do i advocate them being kept as pets.

i am a member of several groups dedicated to keeping chimps out of research, entertainment and pet situations...

that was not my point...my point was that chimps are not "malicious".

 

[Viking_UK]

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I think that they can be under certain circumstances. As I said before, there have been plenty of reports of chimps forming what could be classed as raiding parties and hunting down an individual from a neighbring group. There doesn't seem to be any reason of competition for food or territory in most of the cases I've read about, but whatever the reason for it, there's obviously a degree of premeditation and organisation involved. I'm not quite sure if that counts as malice, but if it doesn't it's not too far off.

 

[Gillette]

my point was that chimps are not "malicious".

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I think that they can be under certain circumstances. As I said before, there have been plenty of reports of chimps forming what could be classed as raiding parties and hunting down an individual from a neighbring group. There doesn't seem to be any reason of competition for food or territory in most of the cases I've read about, but whatever the reason for it, there's obviously a degree of premeditation and organisation involved. I'm not quite sure if that counts as malice, but if it doesn't it's not too far off.

It could be a territorial dispute or tribal retribution for something the human observers didn't catch. Sure, malice could be involved but as you said yourself, that's "under certain circumstances". The same applies to virtually every species. SC's categorization of an entire species as malicious based on a rarely displayed trait is foolish.

 

[Flashy]

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I think that they can be under certain circumstances. As I said before, there have been plenty of reports of chimps forming what could be classed as raiding parties and hunting down an individual from a neighbring group. There doesn't seem to be any reason of competition for food or territory in most of the cases I've read about, but whatever the reason for it, there's obviously a degree of premeditation and organisation involved. I'm not quite sure if that counts as malice, but if it doesn't it's not too far off.

neighboring groups represent a very real threat to territory and food for virtually all animals.

a dominant neighboring male can be a danger to the weaker adults and females and especially young and infants of the group.

one need look no further than the former dominant alpha male in Gombe, Frodo...even Jane Goodall would not go near him without two bodyguards present.

the fact is that they go after dominant males, much like humans, and they do so in many cases by forging alliances, where they elevate the leader they want to the top position, and they do so, by beating the alpha male severely in many cases, precisely so that he knows he does not hold sway any more

what you spoke of, the targeting of certain individuals, occurs specifically for certain reasons...it is not done out of malice or spite.

Goliath, who was the alpha male when Goodall arrived, was eventually deposed by a lower rival, and as he aged, he became less and less powerful in the group...instead of accepting his place in the order he left his group (The Kasakela chimps) to form a brand new group (The Kahama)...he was later beaten and killed by the same group that formed the senior males of his old group.

and in fact, even Jane goodall has said that the elevated levels of violence and "Chimp wars" that were observed in Gombe, were the result of the interference of researchers such as herself in terms of them offering constant food to the chimps, so that they could be studied more closely.

"I didn't see aggression to start with. There's no question that chimpanzees become more aggressive as a result of crowding, as a result of competition for food. It's very hard to look back with hindsight and say oh well I would have done it differently. If I had gone to Gombe and had access to information about the effect of feeding bananas on wild chimpanzees I wouldn't have done it"


And in studies of several other groups of chimps in other locations, none of them have observed this heightened level of violence or killing over and above any normal levels of aggression, bravado and display

in fact , the prime evidence that they are *NOT* malicious, is that they choose display, bravado, and light violence, (beating with the hands) over more injurious or lethal forms of violence.

they will display, throw branches, rip bushes, shriek etc, to warn off possible further conflict...one particular male, "Mike", even learned back in the 60s that he could make his displays even more fearsome by incorporating many of the researchers every day tools into his displays (their metal cups, for example could be banged to make a fearsome noise)

 

[tripod]

Flashy's right. Primates are nowhere near as violent as humans... they don't even eat meat, preferring to peruse nature's salad bar that is the forest canopy.

The aggression is not inherent, but situational... I mean, every creature has their own type of aggression.

I love how people like to look down on the animal as being wild and violent, when man is the most violent creature that has ever inhabited the earth.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Primates are nowhere near as violent as humans... they don't even eat meat, preferring to peruse nature's salad bar that is the forest canopy.

Not quite true, tripod.
Years ago, Jane Goodal showed that chimps eat insects.
It has since been learned that they eat other meat as well, though such consumption tends to be sporadic. Minute quantities, really, compared to the usual human intake ... exactly what your cardiologist might recommend for all of us.

 

[D_Hyacinth Harrytwat]

The aggression is not inherent, but situational... I mean, every creature has their own type of aggression.

I love how people like to look down on the animal as being wild and violent, when man is the most violent creature that has ever inhabited the earth.

I can definitely agree to the situational aggression. I was focusing on that without really specifying that I didn't mean "always" and "forever" in terms of their violence.

And human's do some of the same things as chimps! How about that famous boxer who tried to bite that one man's ear off, for sport?

 

[Flashy]

you should watch these segments

YouTube - Violent chimpanzee attack - Planet Earth - BBC wildlife

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1WBs74W4ik&

the original 1990 Attenborough film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTPkmH4hWCs&


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMXk5Z6-IHY&

 

[Flashy]

cooperation

YouTube - Chimpanzee Problem Solving by Cooperation


innovation

YouTube - Chimpanzee Problem Solving using Water


YouTube - Chimpanzee Culture and Medicine Usage


YouTube - Chimps Attacking Leopard

 

[Flashy]

chimps have amazing short term memory

YouTube - Chimpanzee Memory Test

 

[D_Kissimmee Coldsore]

Not quite true, tripod.
Years ago, Jane Goodal showed that chimps eat insects.
It has since been learned that they eat other meat as well, though such consumption tends to be sporadic. Minute quantities, really, compared to the usual human intake ... exactly what your cardiologist might recommend for all of us.

They've also been shown to cannibalise enemies.

 

[Flashy]

They've also been shown to cannibalise enemies.

see one of the videos i posted above for that particular behavior.

 

[D_Kissimmee Coldsore]

see one of the videos i posted above for that particular behavior.

Missed that. It's scary but intriguing to watch. This was and is a human practice in some tribal places too. They're awfully similar to us.

 

[Strawberry101]

Yes