I'm Confused: Sex Trafficking Or Prostitution Or Entrepeneurs?

[ohiorod]

And all of this reigns supreme within sex work, particularly sex work by women provided for men, because the idiotic illegalisation of the practice doesn't allow for protective infrastructures and processes to be put in place. The same underlying fears and background issues you point to also existed with illegal marijuana, and we can already see how decriminalization and legalisation are starting to make that a market much less rife with danger for providers and consumers alike.
Your final sentence somewhat reveals the biased way you're coming at this issue, because by in large these are not issues male sex workers that service women have to deal with, partly because of the lessened risk of rape or harm, but largely because they don't carry the same desperate/criminal stigma; the workers or the "janes". Which again hearkens back to still held conceptions of "sexual gatekeeping" as well as sex being used as a reward function for amicable male behaviors.
Women via Backpage, Craigslist, and to a less obvious extent, Instagram have found ways to bypass the trafficking, to eliminate the middle man of a pimp, and yet still find their options stifled and their efforts criminalized.
Trafficking, abuse and drug concerns are convenient, but gender biased scapegoats for what the real issue is: policing the sexuality of women, and keeping a rein on the sexual access of men, to which every other gender expression of "trick" or "john" then gets to suffer in the trickle down.

While I agree that the market for male sex workers is not near in demand as it is for females, I believe you total overlooked the male youth who are bought and sold for sex around the world. Ask any agency serving homeless youth why it so essential to get them off the street. In the last 5 years, I have presented on the topic nearly 100 times across my state and neighboring states. While the gender changes, many of the perils facing females are also prevalent for males.

 

[Sagittarius84]

While I agree that the market for male sex workers is not near in demand as it is for females, I believe you total overlooked the male youth who are bought and sold for sex around the world. Ask any agency serving homeless youth why it so essential to get them off the street. In the last 5 years, I have presented on the topic nearly 100 times across my state and neighboring states. While the gender changes, many of the perils facing females are also prevalent for males.

I didn't overlook anything, I thought we were operating under the auspices of child prostitution being wrong by default...but if you'd like me to encompass that thought as well, Ill again liken it to marijuana legalization...a lot less kids end up selling and or buying marijuana as well as be caught up in the auxilary criminal activity, when its decriminalized/legalized and bought and sold amongst licenced dispensaries and providers...so again remove the illicit and illegal stigma to consenting adults and a lot fewer children of either gender are bound to be trafficked.

 

[AtYourCervix10]

interesting point. thank you for making it. why don't you think we hear about this as much?

While I agree that the market for male sex workers is not near in demand as it is for females, I believe you total overlooked the male youth who are bought and sold for sex around the world. Ask any agency serving homeless youth why it so essential to get them off the street. In the last 5 years, I have presented on the topic nearly 100 times across my state and neighboring states. While the gender changes, many of the perils facing females are also prevalent for males.

 

[AtYourCervix10]

i do want to make an important distinction here. i'm NOT talking about child prostitution or children. I am talking about prostitution/sex trafficking as it pertains to adults. In the documentary i saw on PBS Frontline and the NYtimes piece, the context is these are consenting ADULT women -- by adult, I mean, 18 years old and up.

the notion of age and children was not discussed in the PBS documentary or the NYTIMES article. this is about gender mores and legalities, NOT age.

please DO NOT muddy or confuse this conversation with the applications of it with children. The intention of this thread is to have an sober, intelligent conversation about the politicization of society and how laws have changed in regards what is deemed appropriate, acceptable and labeled "prostitution"/sex trafficking.

I didn't overlook anything, I thought we were operating under the auspices of child prostitution being wrong by default...but if you'd like me to encompass that thought as well, Ill again liken it to marijuana legalization...a lot less kids end up selling and or buying marijuana as well as be caught up in the auxilary criminal activity, when its decriminalized/legalized and bought and sold amongst licenced dispensaries and providers...so again remove the illicit and illegal stigma to consenting adults and a lot fewer children of either gender are bound to be trafficked.

 

[ohiorod]

interesting point. thank you for making it. why don't you think we hear about this as much?

I can’t say why you in particular have not heard significant stories about it as I am not aware of your sources of news and information. But, I can say that if you simply google child sex slavery or read about kiddie porn or teens involved in porn, you will find many of the stories. It is a little harder to catch the perpetrators of the sex rings, but the porn is a by-product that has lasting images that can sometimes be traced. They are tragic stories. The offenders operate on the deep dark web.

 

[AtYourCervix10]

oh. well again, I am not talking about or interested in a conversation about children. this thread is intended to be about adults. when you bring up children in this conversation, it becomes completely different and changes the entire meaning and intention of the thread. please re-read my posts and comments, none of it pertains to, includes children. that is not the issue or the point i'm trying to discuss.

if you are talking about male prostitution in men, who are adults then I am curious as to why that does not receive as much attention from media and law enforcement as the female aspects of prostitution. As the sources that I mention clearly say, it is about media and society's interpretations of what is considered prostitution/trafficking or is it legally entrepreneurial. And in both the pieces women are viewed as victims or either heroic rights activists. which seem entirely contradictory.

What i thought you were suggesting is, there is a male version of this, but that doesn't get any publicity.

regardless, please leave the conversation of children out of this. as it is not the intention nor the source of the discussion.

I can’t say why you in particular have not heard significant stories about it as I am not aware of your sources of news and information. But, I can say that if you simply google child sex slavery or read about kiddie porn or teens involved in porn, you will find many of the stories. It is a little harder to catch the perpetrators of the sex rings, but the porn is a by-product that has lasting images that can sometimes be traced. They are tragic stories. The offenders operate on the deep dark web.

 

[Sagittarius84]

What i thought you were suggesting is, there is a male version of this, but that doesn't get any publicity.

regardless, please leave the conversation of children out of this. as it is not the intention nor the source of the discussion.

You're right we shouldn't be discussing the pre adult aspects of prostitution, but Im glad it came up because it is yet another one of the easier things to yell about when some difficult or uncomfortable realizations need to be made about the nature of the illegalisation of prostitution. It's the Chicago to any discussion of racial oppression, the "hysteria" to discussions of women's equality.
There is a societal and cultural investment in the capital of sexual access. Both men and women generally seek to acquire this capital in order to leverage it against freedom and selectivity. We easily know why there are so many men opposed to prostitution, specifically women patronizing male prostitutes. It feeds into contemporary fears of men not being able to reconcile their roles with a newly empowered woman counterpart, that if sex can be out sourced to professionals more adept and motivated to ensure her sexual satisfaction, what familar traditional masculine role can he fulfill? And how then does he garner a monogamous pairing with a woman without paying himself? But who cares really about that? These are fears easily overcome and reconciled by growing the fuck up and being an adult man that adult women will find attractive....

But when you peel back the trafficking, the children issue, and start to formulate a system by which consenting adults are able to legally monetize sexual acts/experiences, you have to ask: why specifically do women still have an opposition to men patronizing women prostitutes without some legal ramifications, or social ostracism in place? I have conversed with more than one woman that will loudly decry anyone that dare shame a woman for consentedly participate or patronize legal sex work, but still believe men that do so in the same legal fashion(overwhemingly the focus is on the patronizers of cis women, not necessarily other categories or the providers) should be met with no less shaming.

 

[Haggard_Wisdom]

Sex work is legal here in Australia. Having the sex trade operating through licensed brothels with enforced health codes and added security for the sex workers is the only way to wrest control of the industry from the human traffickers and the pimps. Criminalising it only drives it further into the criminal underworld.

Sex trafficking is an evil the world should be rid of.

Sex work itself is not.

 

[Sagittarius84]

Sex work is legal here in Australia. Having the sex trade operating through licensed brothels with enforced health codes and added security for the sex workers is the only way to wrest control of the industry from the human traffickers and the pimps. Criminalising it only drives it further into the criminal underworld.

Sex trafficking is an evil the world should be rid of.

Sex work itself is not.

Let me ask as an American, is having patronized a legal brothel as a young man in Australia any type of social ill or major hurdle to establishing future relationships?

 

[Haggard_Wisdom]

Nah, not really. Depends on who knows. There's a little bit of social stigma still attached - a sex worker was stabbed to death in Sydney just the other day (an out-call, or visiting the client's house rather than going to a licensed brothel) and another woman who wasn't a sex worker was knifed by the same man.

The non sex-worker seemed to get all the sympathy while it almost seemed to be the poor sex-worker's own fault for choosing the profession she did.

I've seen a few sex workers in my time but I keep this to myself. You never know how people react to the news. Funnily enough strippers are almost universally acceptable. It's normal to go to the strips!

 

[Sagittarius84]

Nah, not really. Depends on who knows. There's a little bit of social stigma still attached - a sex worker was stabbed to death in Sydney just the other day (an out-call, or visiting the client's house rather than going to a licensed brothel) and another woman who wasn't a sex worker was knifed by the same man.

The non sex-worker seemed to get all the sympathy while it almost seemed to be the poor sex-worker's own fault for choosing the profession she did.

I've seen a few sex workers in my time but I keep this to myself. You never know how people react to the news. Funnily enough strippers are almost universally acceptable. It's normal to go to the strips!

Sounds like the American equivalent to men jacking off..most women arent keen on seeing it or knowing it goes on during their relationship, but accept its been done before them at least, right?
That's where I think the rub lies here in America, as opposed to other Western nations, it pays dividends to categorize men getting sex as a reward or motivational function as opposed to a benign, but personal act. As long as sex for men is classified as so, to exploit an opportunity for sexual access under other means disrupts the economy behind it and can thus be decried.
It's simple business really, "accreditation" can allow a company to invest in an inferior suppliers for their products to maximize the return if "non legitimate" business are providing a better or more convenient product, because the moniker detracts the consumer from engaging in competition.

 

[Haggard_Wisdom]

Yeah, it really is viewed as a kind of wanking. There's usually no love in it, it's a business transaction. People rent out their holes or their cocks and split part of their earnings with the venue that ensures this happens in a safe manner.

I don't know why there's a problem with this.

 

[AtYourCervix10]

Well i think it's like one of the NY Times posts that I linked here earlier that likens it to Marijuana. Marijuana used to be just another drug and everybody was worried about how we would enforce it, if it became legal. Then it started to become legal in parts of the US and lose its stigma. What's more, people are even justifying and extoling it for its medicinal purposes. For whatever reason, Prostitution seems to be legal in Nevada only still? But there are no surges in crime and violence associated with it. I don't see why other cities couldn't jump on that same band wagon. However I will identify below why this hasn't happened in the US yet, in my mind.

The strange thing to me, that I dont think this country will ever outrun is its absurd unyielding Puritanical origins. For example, there are TV shows in other countries that unapolagetically show nudity... but in the US, its deemed offensive and there would be rampant outcries if nudity wasnt blurred out. Why is that? Our Culture and society.

Further, it's even stranger NOW that Progressives and Conservatives can unite on this primitive obscenity issue but for completely different reasons. Say ABC regularly showed nudity on a program, conservatives would bemoan that it's morally offensive, AND progressives would be outraged because it objectifies women. Both parties are offended for different reasons. Know what I mean?

I really do believe this, and I know it will outrage the female readers. I stopped going into the "ASK A WOMAN" section anymore because just asking questions about the hypocritical sexual nature of women would draw so much unwarranted ire and outrage. The issue to me is entirely now gender based. What do I mean? Well, 9/10 prostitution Johns are going to be men. The audience for prostitution, whether gay or straight is going to be men. And oddly this offends women, as clearly it shows women don't value sex the same way as men do. But if someone says that fact... they are labeled as mysoginistic and sexist; even thought it's TRUE! For example, the only time you hear about women in Prostitution stings is when they're either the victims or the Mammasans in a massage parlor. How many times have you heard of a woman being arrested for cruising a blvd, looking for handsome men with 10 inch cocks to have a dalliance with at a cheap hotel -- it doesn't happen. It DOES NOT HAPPEN. So if that's a fact, then what's the real issue and problem legally? Is it religion? or is it that women cant figure out if they're victims or entrepreneurs?

What do I mean? Where else can anyone make 200$ to 1000$ an hour and not be a hedgefund trader or CEO? I wish i had those kind of opportunities. A woman has this opportunity if she is an escort or prostitute. But is she being a shrewd business woman for her services? or is she a victim? If she's a victim -- it's going to be against the law (As it is now). If she's a shrewd business woman -- then it's legal. Until women can figure out the view or narrative they want, this will be an ongoing issue. Why? No lawmaker is going to endorse something that victimizes and exploits women. However, if it's an opportunity for female self empowerment and female rights and strength... then of course a law maker can get behind that issue and make a change.

As it always is, women have the power to make this choice. The power is all with women. They just have to figure out what they want. Are women in the US taking to the streets in their PINK PUSSY HATS protesting that prostitution is ownership of their bodies? or they're being victims? if you put 10 women in a room and ask them that, I'm sure they would be screaming at each other in no time. But the US narrative will always be victimization, and until that is viewed no longer fashionable, nothing will change.

Do you understand what I'm saying? It's a very simple clear issue, that nobody wants to talk about.

 

[Sagittarius84]

Yeah, it really is viewed as a kind of wanking. There's usually no love in it, it's a business transaction. People rent out their holes or their cocks and split part of their earnings with the venue that ensures this happens in a safe manner.

I don't know why there's a problem with this.

Because of the nature of the product being exchanged..you'll hear progressives spout all day everyday about women being able to legally provide and partake..they'll express an affinity for male providers, but male partakers..thats a no no

 

[Haggard_Wisdom]

What do I mean? Where else can anyone make 200$ to 1000$ an hour and not be a hedgefund trader or CEO? I wish i had those opportunities. A woman has this opportunity if she is a escort or prostitute. But is she being a shrewd business woman for her services? or is she a victim? If she's a victim -- it's going to be against the law. If she's a shrewd business woman -- then it's legal. Until women can figure out the view or narrative they want, this will be an ongoing issue. Why? No lawmaker is going to endorse something that victimizes and exploits women. However, if it's an opportunity for female empowerment and female rights and strength then of course a law maker can get behind that issue and make a change. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's a very simple clear issue, that nobody wants to talk about.

It's a cultural issue. The only way it will change is if your society's perceptions of prostitution change as a whole. The sexual enslavement of undocumented migrants who have no way to do legal work and often owe huge debts to the people smugglers wh get them through borders, these are victims of the dark side of the sex industry. The criminal side. By all means law enforcement should nail these bastards who buy swap and sell human lives.

Legitimate sex work where the worker can just walk away from the industry like in any other job and has final say in who is using their body and how, that should never be a criminal act.

 

[Haggard_Wisdom]

Because of the nature of the product being exchanged..you'll hear progressives spout all day everyday about women being able to legally provide and partake..they'll express an affinity for male providers, but male partakers..thats a no no

I'm what you'd call a progressive and I'm cool with it. Bodily autonomy for all! Nobody should feel compelled to be a sex worker however.

 

[Sagittarius84]

I'm what you'd call a progressive and I'm cool with it. Bodily autonomy for all! Nobody should feel compelled to be a sex worker however.

Lol im talking American specific, it's a political wing where women seem to be its foundation and loudest voices, which in itself is refreshing, but often reveals unspoken biases and social strategies.

 

[Haggard_Wisdom]

Lol im talking American specific, it's a political wing where women seem to be its foundation and loudest voices, which in itself is refreshing, but often reveals unspoken biases and social strategies.

Ha, fair enough!

 

[Sagittarius84]

And oddly this offends women, as clearly it shows women don't value sex the same way as men do. But if someone says that fact... they are labeled as mysoginistic and sexist; even thought it's TRUE!

I feel your sentiment, truly I do...but you need to tread carefully with this type of rhetoric, because even I understand why posting something like this as stated in AAWs is going to draw ire.

 

[AtYourCervix10]

Man, i hate to burst your bubble, but WE ARE ALL "SLAVES" AND MIGRANTS. Do you have any idea how hard it is for someone to survive in one of the US metropolitan cities? regardless of ethnicity, gender, etc.

Do you know how expensive it is to live in a metropolitan city in the US?
Have you seen how many Americans are in debt?
Have you read about the homeless epidemic in this country?
Have you read about the Opioid epidemic?
Do you know how expensive health insurance is?
Do you know that pensions are disappearing?

Do you think only migrants are the victims? The "enslaved" ones? The ones trying to survive working 7 days a week???? All these problems listed above are being endured by american citizens of all races colors and genders.

My point is, WE AS HUMAN BEINGS are ALL struggling to survive. If you're not? You're lucky.

I'm a white guy (as you can tell by my pics). According to the mainstream media, my life should be a fairy tale and i should have any and all opportunities handed to me on a silver platter -- hate to burst your bubble, but that aint the case. I have to work my ASS off just to survive. Just to keep from being homeless. Nobody is feeling sorry for me. I'm a US citizen and I am barely surviving.

So tell me, is someone a "slave" for taking a minimum wage job, working 60 hours a week to survive and make ends meet? Or is someone a slave for giving massages for $200 an hour and making more than what most people make in a week, in one day? Who is "enslaved" more in these two predicaments? Who is the victim?

Please tell me. I'm listening.

It's a cultural issue. The only way it will change is if your society's perceptions of prostitution change as a whole. The sexual enslavement of undocumented migrants who have no way to do legal work and often owe huge debts to the people smugglers wh get them through borders, these are victims of the dark side of the sex industry. The criminal side. By all means law enforcement should nail these bastards who buy swap and sell human lives.

Legitimate sex work where the worker can just walk away from the industry like in any other job and has final say in who is using their body and how, that should never be a criminal act.