Immigration and genetics

Discussion in 'Politics' started by osprey1987, Apr 19, 2011.

  1. osprey1987

    osprey1987 Member

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    If someone suggested that having anything less than the widest possible gene-pool was a good idea, we would laugh. Yet, if someone suggests limiting immigration and thus having a sub-optimal cultural pool, we are supposed to politely explain to them and not treat them with the contempt they really deserve.

    Xenophobia is not an idea, and the only unnatural concept is believing that immigration is somehow new when it isn't. Any examples of racial tension are usually always started by the ethnic majority, not the incoming population; I like to see anyone prove otherwise.

    My whole point is this. If anyone spouts an idea that doesn't match what we already know of the world, they have to prove it. Half-baked ideas deserve contempt, not sympathetic explanations and immigration control is the biggest half-baked idea of all.
     
  2. joyboytoy79

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    Huh?

    First, immigration control has nothing to do with reproduction. Second, a "gene-pool" and a "cultural pool" are not the same thing. Third, ethnic minorities in this, and nearly all countries, tend to marry (and breed) among themselves. That is, in fact, part of the definition of a "minority."

    I'm not sure exactly how you're trying to tie genetics and immigration together. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I can give you a million and one reasons why selectively limiting immigration from one country or another is a bad thing, but none of those reasons is related to genetics. The truth is, somewhere around 60,000 years ago, the vast majority of humans on earth died out. Only about 15,000 individuals survived. Evolutionarily speaking, all humans are extremely closely related, with most differences being purely "cosmetic".
     
  3. SR_Pepe Le Pube

    SR_Pepe Le Pube New Member

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    half baked ideas are how most real ideas are fostered. not sure why you are so angry; perhaps you have a reason.

    good luck. you need it.
     
  4. midlifebear

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    To which I might add that the last 10 years of human genome research has shown that the most genetically robust and diverse populations are in Sub Saharan Africa.
     
    #4 midlifebear, Apr 19, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2011
  5. joyboytoy79

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    I know! and in places that see negative immigration (people are leaving those countries, more than they're moving to those countries). There simply is no correlation between genetic diversity and immigration law. Period.
     
  6. maxcok

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    Huh? Wha...??? This thesis isn't even half-baked. You haven't even turned on the oven. :rolleyes:
     
  7. Bbucko

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    I must be experiencing a massive comprehension fail. All I got from the OP was a condemnation of Xenophobia and an affirmation of lenient immigration controls with fewer restrictions, especially from areas outside Europe.

    Call me crazy, but even after multiple re-reads I'm not seeing anything but an endorsement of multiculturalism and an open endorsement of greater cultural and racial diversity.

    Why the snark? Is it the use of "genetics" in the OP?
     
  8. joyboytoy79

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    I think what got me going down the "snarky" road was the attempted link of biology to public policy. As a geneticist I get annoyed when people from either side of the ideological spectrum start misusing my science. If you don't understand the science you're using as the main justification of your argument, please refrain from using said science as justification for your argument. As I said in my original response, there are a million reasons to lessen immigration restrictions, but genetics isn't one of them.

    Then, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that this type of ignorance is tolerated too much in the political arena. You're an accepting, open-minded, culturally tolerant individual - GREAT! But then, why the fuck are you trying to misappropriate scientific "evidence" to prove that the opposing viewpoint isn't even worth due consideration?!? That's not a call for affirmation of lenient immigration controls with fewer restrictions (from anywhere). It's a call for intolerance of the opposing view.

    If we're ever going to get anywhere on ANY topic, we need to listen to the opposing viewpoint. We need to think about, and try to understand where our opponents are coming from. We need to stop and think about what they're saying, and how our own ideas might get in the way of understanding. We need to take a moment to walk in our opponent's footsteps, and weigh his opinion against our own. He may be saying something that makes sense, that we didn't think of. That's what debate is supposed to be about. But if we use fabricated evidence to support our viewpoint, and ridicule the other side for not accepting this "evidence" as fact, we are failing. We are, in fact, displaying the very intolerance we claim to abhor.

    That's why I got "snarky."
     
  9. Joll

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    Immigration controls can sometimes be a good idea, depending on the current resources of your country, whether you're facing a massive influx for some reason (10 new nations joining EU in 2004, with only UK, Ireland and Sweden allowing entry), whether there are work shortages you need to fill, and what tensions it's likely to exacerbate if not managed carefully.

    Depends on the situation, I guess.
     
  10. sutindaya

    sutindaya New Member

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    Immigration by wild type flies into an established compound chromosome control zone was studied in the laboratory using discrete generation population cages. Immigration rates of less than 10 % per generation by virgin migrants were unlikely to disrupt the zone. However, the zone could be disrupted by immigration rates of 0.5 % if the migrants had mated. The curvilinear relationship between the number of generations to fixation of the migrant genotype and the immigration rate suggested a possible equilibrium between immigration rate and the maintenance of a control zone. -The importance of the results to the strategy of a particular control program is emphasized, as is the need for an integrated multi-disciplinary approach to insect pest management.
     
  11. maxcok

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    Fascinating as that is, how does it relate to human cultures?
     
  12. joyboytoy79

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    The relationship is purely horticultural. I'm assuming it was a Drosophila test. Funny thing about fruit flies - they have hundreds of offspring. Humans, not so much. Anything to be inferred about genetic frequencies in flies cannot also be applied to humans.

    Next.
     
  13. maxcok

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    Well, you know what Dorothy Parker said...

    "You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think".
     
  14. Cuddler

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    You know what they say:
    Time files like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.
     
  15. dude_007

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    There has been immigration control throughout u.s. history. Wtf? The op doesn't even make sense. Immigration laws have existed to benefit the white upper class hetero male going back a couple hundred years now. Take a gender/race/class history course and educate yourself.
     
  16. osprey1987

    osprey1987 Member

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    I'm sorry, I didn't realise this forum was for people from America, the centre of the universe.

    Immigration is as natural as sex. Why would anyone wish to control it?
     
  17. Cuddler

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    Replace that second one with "Stealing is as natural as sex. Why would anyone wish to control it?" and in doing so note the fallacy.

    A country should control immigration so that it is not overwhelmed. Compare and contrast the actual immigration policies of the US & Canada.

    The US is fairly closed to immigration. Unless you have a job offer, a relative, win an internationally recognized award such as the Nobel Prize,
    or are willing to work for 5 years picking crops, there's no way in. Legally that is. Even if you're in the country illegally, jobs can be found. You have access to medical care and schooling for the children.

    Canada is open to immigration, with a strict point-based system. So many points for speaking English and/or French, for level of education, for age, for profession, etc. If you get enough points, you can get an immigration visa. Not enough points, no immigration for you. There's no problem with illegal immigration in Canada. No one will hire someone without the proper documentation, since there are enough legal immigrants and others to take any jobs. No chance of getting medical care without either showing documents or paying up front. No chance of enrolling children who don't live in the country legally. It may be harsh, but it works. And for those who want to follow the rules, at least there is a system in place for legal immigration.

    Are there any other examples of working or broken immigration systems?
     
  18. osprey1987

    osprey1987 Member

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    Except stealing isn't as natural as sex. That just shows why immigration laws are based on prejudice and unproven fears.
     
  19. Kotchanski

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    Animals have been taking what they need to survive for as long as they've been here, often to the detriment of others... How is that not natural?

    (I have no opinion I wish to share on the main topic of this thread)
     
  20. Cuddler

    Cuddler Member

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    (underlining added)

    Not sure there's anything there about why. Maybe you meant to write that?

    How is Canada's immigration, which is open to any who are qualified, prejudiced or based on any kind of fear? The requirement isn't that someone be fluent in both official languages, be in perfect health, hold advanced degrees, have extensive work experience in a high-demand area, and be in prime child-bearing age. A combination of a few of those gives enough points to get in, regardless of ethnicity or country of origin. The age of letting in hoards of unwashed masses is over. Exceptions are made of course for refugees.
     
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