In 2020, We Still Don't Require Id/proof

Abe Froman

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Voter ID. Period. Spare us the "the poor/minorities don't have access or funds to get an ID". Liberals/progressive would KILL (figuratively) to have yet ANOTHER entitlement program, as would the clamoring RNC....free IDs for everybody.

Think about it, if you can get Obama phones in the hands of millions of disenfranchised...a PROACTIVE ID program would succeed within 2 years.

Why wont the DNC go along with it? The paramount requirement to vote is to be a U.S. citizen (and felons, etc). Give it a 5 year timeliness for all I care. But get it in, learn from early glitches, correct, and implement with slight faults but mass improvement over existing identity fraud.

They have the passion to spend billions to shore up the rickety postal system, but scared to require IDs and ensure putting them in the hands of every citizen and perhaps non-citizen (separate thread). It is easy peasy. Could of been put in census mailings, postage paid envelope for one requesting an ID or knowing anyone in their household...(perhaps neighbors, homeless, etc). Trump failed in this regard, and California, Florida, New York, et al continue to fail in this regard. You can spend millions to keep addicts on booze, marijuana and opiodsduring the pandemic but no program to offer IDs, not only to vote...a sacred institution, but provide a much needed artifact for other uses.

There is no excuse. You can walk up to a polling place (with mask on), early in the AM, look at the posted voter roll outside and have at it. Move on to the next sub-district ad nauseum. This is important in local elections when 7 ppl are running for a board in a small county, when margins can be in the single digits.

A separate thread, but to deny this year's mass VBM will not be the greatest instance of voter fraud in our history is naive...and makes ID requirement not as effective for the time being.

[forgive typos]
 

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Voter ID. Period. Spare us the "the poor/minorities don't have access or funds to get an ID". Liberals/progressive would KILL (figuratively) to have yet ANOTHER entitlement program, as would the clamoring RNC....free IDs for everybody.

Think about it, if you can get Obama phones in the hands of millions of disenfranchised...a PROACTIVE ID program would succeed within 2 years.

Why wont the DNC go along with it? The paramount requirement to vote is to be a U.S. citizen (and felons, etc). Give it a 5 year timeliness for all I care. But get it in, learn from early glitches, correct, and implement with slight faults but mass improvement over existing identity fraud.

They have the passion to spend billions to shore up the rickety postal system, but scared to require IDs and ensure putting them in the hands of every citizen and perhaps non-citizen (separate thread). It is easy peasy. Could of been put in census mailings, postage paid envelope for one requesting an ID or knowing anyone in their household...(perhaps neighbors, homeless, etc). Trump failed in this regard, and California, Florida, New York, et al continue to fail in this regard. You can spend millions to keep addicts on booze, marijuana and opiodsduring the pandemic but no program to offer IDs, not only to vote...a sacred institution, but provide a much needed artifact for other uses.

There is no excuse. You can walk up to a polling place (with mask on), early in the AM, look at the posted voter roll outside and have at it. Move on to the next sub-district ad nauseum. This is important in local elections when 7 ppl are running for a board in a small county, when margins can be in the single digits.

A separate thread, but to deny this year's mass VBM will not be the greatest instance of voter fraud in our history is naive...and makes ID requirement not as effective for the time being.

[forgive typos]
I stopped reading after "obama phones"...........
 
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deleted15807

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Another voter suppression effort in thin disguise. But they keep trying even after it’s exposed as such. There’s a sucker born every minute.
 

Nigel Atkinson

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Why are republicans always trying to act as if voter fraud is such a huge thing Amongst minorities ? Minorities don’t care about voting enough to commit voter fraud. I think a bigger issue is why wasn’t trump removed from office when the intelligence communities have evidence of interference in our elections. What’s being done about that ? People are being encouraged to get out and vote this election and if they don’t then they will have to deal with the repercussions of not voting. The only voter fraud that will need to be watched will be votes for Trump.
 

vita2016

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I think you need to consider the global perspective.

The US is only one of many democracies in the world. Other democracies also run elections and they also face the same question - should ID be required for voting.

Here in the UK we don't have to provide identification when we vote, we just go in, tell the person your address, they check you off a list, and then you go and vote. The UK has one of the longest histories of running legitimate elections on the planet. (Granted, certain local areas are trialling the production of ID).

There are basically 0% incidences of voter fraud in our main election (once every 5 years, we call them a "general election"). Of course there are a few cases but never even close to making any substantive difference to the outcome. Even with an ID system there would be incidences of fraud - people would obtain fake IDs.

Australia also requires no ID.
 

keenobserver

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I think you need to consider the global perspective.

The US is only one of many democracies in the world. Other democracies also run elections and they also face the same question - should ID be required for voting.

Here in the UK we don't have to provide identification when we vote, we just go in, tell the person your address, they check you off a list, and then you go and vote. The UK has one of the longest histories of running legitimate elections on the planet. (Granted, certain local areas are trialling the production of ID).

There are basically 0% incidences of voter fraud in our main election (once every 5 years, we call them a "general election"). Of course there are a few cases but never even close to making any substantive difference to the outcome. Even with an ID system there would be incidences of fraud - people would obtain fake IDs.

Australia also requires no ID.

This is essentially how Maryland does it. (USA).
 
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phonehome

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Voter ID. Period. Spare us the "the poor/minorities don't have access or funds to get an ID". Liberals/progressive would KILL (figuratively) to have yet ANOTHER entitlement program, as would the clamoring RNC....free IDs for everybody.

Think about it, if you can get Obama phones in the hands of millions of disenfranchised...a PROACTIVE ID program would succeed within 2 years.

Why wont the DNC go along with it? The paramount requirement to vote is to be a U.S. citizen (and felons, etc). Give it a 5 year timeliness for all I care. But get it in, learn from early glitches, correct, and implement with slight faults but mass improvement over existing identity fraud.

They have the passion to spend billions to shore up the rickety postal system, but scared to require IDs and ensure putting them in the hands of every citizen and perhaps non-citizen (separate thread). It is easy peasy. Could of been put in census mailings, postage paid envelope for one requesting an ID or knowing anyone in their household...(perhaps neighbors, homeless, etc). Trump failed in this regard, and California, Florida, New York, et al continue to fail in this regard. You can spend millions to keep addicts on booze, marijuana and opiodsduring the pandemic but no program to offer IDs, not only to vote...a sacred institution, but provide a much needed artifact for other uses.

There is no excuse. You can walk up to a polling place (with mask on), early in the AM, look at the posted voter roll outside and have at it. Move on to the next sub-district ad nauseum. This is important in local elections when 7 ppl are running for a board in a small county, when margins can be in the single digits.

A separate thread, but to deny this year's mass VBM will not be the greatest instance of voter fraud in our history is naive...and makes ID requirement not as effective for the time being.

[forgive typos]

Well first off

I have never lived in Santa Cruz Ca but I have lived in San Diego, and there and EVERYWHERE else I have ever lived in almost 40 years of being able to vote was it EVER the case that you could walk up to a polling place in the early AM late PM or any time in between and f"ind" so you could "look at" a "posted voter roll" "outside" or INSIDE for that matter So you could "have at it" and then "move on" either a little bite much less "ad nauseum"

So your "reasoning in para 5 does not even exist

Someone would have to GUESS at a name that is on the list/rolls and HOPE that person is not known by site by that local poll worker IE "I know Jack Johnson and you are not him" and then HOPE Jack Johnson had NOT ALREADY VOTED and/or that if you are able to pretend to be him and vote in his name that later in the day the real Jack Johnson does not show up and want to vote.

That would be , within mere minutes wall to wall, coast to coast on Fox news

Tucker and Sean would be all over that "report"

When has THAT EVER been the cases ??

Yes in 2010 the Federal Government in partnership could have come with some kind of national standard meeting "government issued photo ID"

Made it EASILY and readily available and absolutely free of charge, free in every way.

However the any such effort gets labeled a "national ID card" and "libertarians" like Rand Paul and the rest of the "I don't want to have to "carry it with me" crowd" have an absolute cow over any such idea.

Almost all states that did or tried to do "voter ID" post 2010 started with the M.O. of

Find out which ID's people who voter R by ant least 60/40 are likely to have, find out which ID's people who are likely to vote D by 60/40 are likely to have and which ID's both groups are Kelley to have and put out your list of "approved ID's" as from ALL of the first list NONE of the second list and a FEW of the third list and if need as a court found in the case of NC be PAY an outside group to do a study so they can to quote the court finding "with surgical precision" come up with a list that is advantage R

CCW permits - yes

Photo ID's issued by that state run university IE NC State or UNC -no

And you wonder why on balance Democrats object to THAT
 

keenobserver

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Well first off

I have never lived in Santa Cruz Ca but I have lived in San Diego, and there and EVERYWHERE else I have ever lived in almost 40 years of being able to vote was it EVER the case that you could walk up to a polling place in the early AM late PM or any time in between and f"ind" so you could "look at" a "posted voter roll" "outside" or INSIDE for that matter So you could "have at it" and then "move on" either a little bite much less "ad nauseum"

So your "reasoning in para 5 does not even exist

Someone would have to GUESS at a name that is on the list/rolls and HOPE that person is not known by site by that local poll worker IE "I know Jack Johnson and you are not him" and then HOPE Jack Johnson had NOT ALREADY VOTED and/or that if you are able to pretend to be him and vote in his name that later in the day the real Jack Johnson does not show up and want to vote.

That would be , within mere minutes wall to wall, coast to coast on Fox news

Tucker and Sean would be all over that "report"

When has THAT EVER been the cases ??

Yes in 2010 the Federal Government in partnership could have come with some kind of national standard meeting "government issued photo ID"

Made it EASILY and readily available and absolutely free of charge, free in every way.

However the any such effort gets labeled a "national ID card" and "libertarians" like Rand Paul and the rest of the "I don't want to have to "carry it with me" crowd" have an absolute cow over any such idea.

Almost all states that did or tried to do "voter ID" post 2010 started with the M.O. of

Find out which ID's people who voter R by ant least 60/40 are likely to have, find out which ID's people who are likely to vote D by 60/40 are likely to have and which ID's both groups are Kelley to have and put out your list of "approved ID's" as from ALL of the first list NONE of the second list and a FEW of the third list and if need as a court found in the case of NC be PAY an outside group to do a study so they can to quote the court finding "with surgical precision" come up with a list that is advantage R

CCW permits - yes

Photo ID's issued by that state run university IE NC State or UNC -no

And you wonder why on balance Democrats object to THAT

Thank you! Nicely said, spot on!
 

Abe Froman

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I stopped reading after "obama phones"...........

Why? It shows the ability to serve the underprivileged, via govt subsidy...much less into perpetuity.

You disagree, and instead of polite, concise retort you assume and then lob a "I'm not listenening".

Convince me otherwise. It is a fair debate, for those mature enough to engage.
 

Industrialsize

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Why? It shows the ability to serve the underprivileged, via govt subsidy...much less into perpetuity.

You disagree, and instead of polite, concise retort you assume and then lob a "I'm not listenening".

Convince me otherwise. It is a fair debate, for those mature enough to engage.
"Obama phones": Right wing's latest bogus obsession
A Reagan-era policy is the latest bogus attack the right can't let go

....Lifeline began during the Reagan administration, and was expanded during George W. Bush's presidency to include cellphone service. It's funded by phone bill fees that most people pay -- not, as some conspiracy theorists believe, by taxes....
"Obama phones": Right wing's latest bogus obsession
 

Abe Froman

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Well first off

I have never lived in Santa Cruz Ca but I have lived in San Diego, and there and EVERYWHERE else I have ever lived in almost 40 years of being able to vote was it EVER the case that you could walk up to a polling place in the early AM late PM or any time in between and f"ind" so you could "look at" a "posted voter roll" "outside" or INSIDE for that matter So you could "have at it" and then "move on" either a little bite much less "ad nauseum"

So your "reasoning in para 5 does not even exist

Someone would have to GUESS at a name that is on the list/rolls and HOPE that person is not known by site by that local poll worker IE "I know Jack Johnson and you are not him" and then HOPE Jack Johnson had NOT ALREADY VOTED and/or that if you are able to pretend to be him and vote in his name that later in the ...

Negative. SOTM lived in San Diego, and (he/she was young, goofed on someone...a friend). Voted on his behalf and awaited for him to report his WTF moment.

Years later, SOTM did it repeatedly to prove someone wrong. And have the video [stealth] which SOTM can share with you privately. While stumping for a friend running for local office...SOTM marched around....EVERY polling place had the roster. Besides you can look up names to addresses on any white page. Go to empty houses, look at mail/packages....take picture, then lookup the entire ex-household. Anyways, SOTM looked up the roll, picked a name....approached the 'check-in' desk claimed he/she was someone and ready this: He/she offered their ID and they acted like he/she said they had COVID. The hurried exclamatory "no, no...we dont/can't take your ID!".

SOTM never voted...claimed he/she forgot their voter guide in the car. Went to the next and so on. Once the person already, voted....SOTM remarked "impossible ...I've been out of town....OH! hang on I need to take this call".

So I will see your "EVER" and raise you a "EVERYWHERE". They do it so ppl can see if they are at the right polling place before getting in a long line, due to ppl using the voting booth to research ballot measures. Educating themselves on the spot. It exists and SOTM has proof a la Project Veritas.
 

Abe Froman

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Fine...your are hung up taxanomy and some ancient political correctness. Point is, if we can get phones in the hands of disenfranchised. With boots on the ground via Census, and political parties et al handing out ID request applications and the seminal "are you registered to vote?" *sigh*

Start at the high school level....every student enrolls for ID. The Identification Department can coordinate going school by school.

Enough of the bold 'yelling. Please...it is unbecoming.

"Obama phones": Right wing's latest bogus obsession
A Reagan-era policy is the latest bogus attack the right can't let go

....Lifeline began during the Reagan administration, and was expanded during George W. Bush's presidency to include cellphone service. It's funded by phone bill fees that most people pay -- not, as some conspiracy theorists believe, by taxes....
"Obama phones": Right wing's latest bogus obsession
 

Industrialsize

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Fine...your are hung up taxanomy and some ancient political correctness.
Nope, you calling them "Obama Phones" told me everything I need to know about you and your political outlook. In the 80's you would have referred to welfare queens. I chose not to engage further. It would be pointless.
 

Abe Froman

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Apologies...I am not following your 60/40 examples. The likely to have should be in the 75-80% range (where this current census one will end up...but there is no 'carrot', although it is law). The 25% that don't get that ID....we can chip away that they have other official ID...and many exceptions can be made via bring a water bill, etc.

Not perfect but would eliminate.

Per VBM disaster....have you ever moved into a college apartment and received mail for prior tenants of 6, 8, 14 people. A few , per the Fed rolls will be sent ballots a la Newsom's vision. The ability to print counterfeit ballots, and ease of pulling deceased records, or just voting the way grandma and grandpa would of in their...nothing we can do about that, but it is a disservice to minimize the biggest ease of voter fraud via VBM. The number of anecdotal, again albiet anectodal, corruption and fraud exposed in November is going to be a legal, media, candidate frenzy. Hanging chads of 2000 will look like amateur hour in this regard.

I think I get the NC 60/40. If one party has a higher adoption rate. But I don't see it any different than leg work in bussing voters to polling places, replete with pre-filled registrations, "voter guides", bag lunches, and a take home goodie bag. Kamala Harris' boyfriend of yore did it religiously. Legal. Door to door stumping "do you vote? are you registered in X County? do you have an ID?". In California, they provide want illegals to have driver's license, so they already have a work around on the corruption there.


Well first off

I have never lived in Santa Cruz Ca but I have lived in San Diego, and there and EVERYWHERE else I have ever lived in almost 40 years of being able to vote was it EVER the case that you could walk up to a polling place in the early AM late PM or any time in between and f"ind" so you could "look at" a "posted voter roll" "outside" or INSIDE for that matter So you could "have at it" and then "move on" either a little bite much less "ad nauseum"

So your "reasoning in para 5 does not even exist

Someone would have to GUESS at a name that is on the list/rolls and HOPE that person is not known by site by that local poll worker IE "I know Jack Johnson and you are not him" and then HOPE Jack Johnson had NOT ALREADY VOTED and/or that if you are able to pretend to be him and vote in his name that later in the day the real Jack Johnson does not show up and want to vote.

That would be , within mere minutes wall to wall, coast to coast on Fox news

Tucker and Sean would be all over that "report"

When has THAT EVER been the cases ??

Yes in 2010 the Federal Government in partnership could have come with some kind of national standard meeting "government issued photo ID"

Made it EASILY and readily available and absolutely free of charge, free in every way.

However the any such effort gets labeled a "national ID card" and "libertarians" like Rand Paul and the rest of the "I don't want to have to "carry it with me" crowd" have an absolute cow over any such idea.

Almost all states that did or tried to do "voter ID" post 2010 started with the M.O. of

Find out which ID's people who voter R by ant least 60/40 are likely to have, find out which ID's people who are likely to vote D by 60/40 are likely to have and which ID's both groups are Kelley to have and put out your list of "approved ID's" as from ALL of the first list NONE of the second list and a FEW of the third list and if need as a court found in the case of NC be PAY an outside group to do a study so they can to quote the court finding "with surgical precision" come up with a list that is advantage R

CCW permits - yes

Photo ID's issued by that state run university IE NC State or UNC -no

And you wonder why on balance Democrats object to THAT
 

Abe Froman

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Nope, you calling them "Obama Phones" told me everything I need to know about you and your political outlook. In the 80's you would have referred to welfare queens. I chose not to engage further. It would be pointless.

Evvvvvvvveryone refers them to as Obama phones or my "burner". Ardent staunch 20 somethings on benefits call them that, in a thankful nod to Obama. Go out on the streets and ask them how the refer to their phones a la "my iPhone". I guess they got the title from all the Faux News they watch...all your anger [it seems] around the coinage won't change it. It's not un-P.C. to call them that. Sorry.

Who cares about my outlook. Ya nitpicked and used some arbitrary nomenclature on that tangent to disqualify from the get go. Ai-ai-ai.... rather shut me down, not find constructive feedback on my notion.

Says more about you, than me.
 

Abe Froman

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Net-net : via this hysteric USPS near non-crisis, we here all this blather about how important and fundamental voting is, and some anecdotal grandma weeping on TV, on how she is dependent on VBM, and senators reminding us in some "founding father" tone and verbiage. It is that same edict(s) they preach that applies to the constitution about being a US citizen, and is THE paramount requirement, and we look away. We dont ensure of that constitutional requirement. It is a requirement, and if honest voting must side-car with it...the right vote and the right person voting are dovetailed.

I could care less about what one party thinks, or is trying to achieve. We should demand it...Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Green , Libertarian, NPP.

I'm just trying to chip away towards that. You have an ideas to solve for a constitutional requirement?? I am game and listening.

Guessing there is a VBM thread, so I will POLITELY (minimal caps, regular font, concise use of bold font) remark there. But election will be delayed, and hit the Supreme Court in November, perhaps for multiple issue for consideration and ruling. It won't be on individual fraud as that is scattered en masse, but individualized.
 

phonehome

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Apologies...I am not following your 60/40 examples. The likely to have should be in the 75-80% range (where this current census one will end up...but there is no 'carrot', although it is law). The 25% that don't get that ID....we can chip away that they have other official ID...and many exceptions can be made via bring a water bill, etc.

Not perfect but would eliminate.

Per VBM disaster....have you ever moved into a college apartment and received mail for prior tenants of 6, 8, 14 people. A few , per the Fed rolls will be sent ballots a la Newsom's vision. The ability to print counterfeit ballots, and ease of pulling deceased records, or just voting the way grandma and grandpa would of in their...nothing we can do about that, but it is a disservice to minimize the biggest ease of voter fraud via VBM. The number of anecdotal, again albiet anectodal, corruption and fraud exposed in November is going to be a legal, media, candidate frenzy. Hanging chads of 2000 will look like amateur hour in this regard.

I think I get the NC 60/40. If one party has a higher adoption rate. But I don't see it any different than leg work in bussing voters to polling places, replete with pre-filled registrations, "voter guides", bag lunches, and a take home goodie bag. Kamala Harris' boyfriend of yore did it religiously. Legal. Door to door stumping "do you vote? are you registered in X County? do you have an ID?". In California, they provide want illegals to have driver's license, so they already have a work around on the corruption there.


Well first things first

Your initial claim, the one I refuted was that in Santa Cruz CA you could walk up yo a polling place and find a copy of the voter polls for that polling place posted OUTSIDE where anyone could look at it.

When I called you on that bullshit you backpedaled to saying something to the effect of , well "they" can do X,Y or Z and get the info which is not even close to your initial claim

You also failed to my other points

1. even if you do come up with that name and address, however that happens this would be voter still has to HOPE that that poll worker will not know by sight the person you are pretending to be, must hope that that person has not ALREADY voted because that would trip up this wanna be voter, has to HOPE that the person you are pretending to be does not come and try to vote later, because he/she not voting is the only way for the wanna be voters vote to go undetected.

Having a "voter ID" which is EASILY faked, ask anybody in a college town how easy it is to get a "fake ID" that will fool a bartender or doorman at a club, a club who has a liquor license on the line does not prevent those three things from happening

Any of those three things happens and that republican poll watcher who just know has the local Fox TV station on speed dial would be reporting it and within the hour it would "breaking news" on Fox News Channel and if Lou Dobbs has anything to say about it FBN as well

When is the last

anything like that made the news?

How about NEVER

Let me clear up the 60/40 thing North Carolina is the best and most aggreious example but most other states almost all "red states" when they passed their post 2010 voter ID laws did some form of the following

Sought to determine just exactly what kinds of ID's, Government Issued Photo ID's ((GIPID'S) voter who wire likely to vote R rather than D by a significant margin, at least 60/40 r to D had and also determine what kinds of GIPID's people who were likely D rather than R by a significant margin, at least 60/40 d to R had

So you ende up with three lists of ID's

One that the people who can be counted on the vote R have

One that people that vote D have.

There is also "overlap" ID's both groups have or may have

In the case of NC they paid a research firm to do a study and come up with these three lists

When they then wrote their voter ID law they made sure the list of "approved ID's" were ONLY ones that were on that first list.

in other words they ensured that the people THEY wanted to vote FOR THEM IE Republicans ALREADY HAD the required ID's and almost NONE of the people likely to NOT "vote the right way" IE for Democrats did not have the now required ID's,even though to be cleat THEY HAVE GIPID's just NOT the ones on the approved list.

The ones they have were "excluded" and ON PURPOSE