Infidelity

[ManlyBanisters]

Thank you NS and DC. I'd say I was starting to doubt my own sanity - but I just wasn't :no: :biggrin:

 

[HazelGod]

Thank you NS and DC. I'd say I was starting to doubt my own sanity - but I just wasn't :no: :biggrin:

No, there's only one wingnut posting here...but I can readily see how "her" brand of lunacy could drive others batshit.

 

[snoozan]

Because the majority of people (Oh shit, he said it. It's time to crucify a kitty!) -know- that it's wrong in our society. Knowing you're wrong is only easy to fes up to on the internet (and still, people have a hard time when it comes to forums and whatnot).

This brings up another point that I forgot to express. Infidelity is only wrong because the majority of our society has been raised to believe that the ideal human relationship is between one man and one woman. Having multiple partners or extramarital relations is wrong only in the same way living in a homosexual relationship/lifestyle is wrong. For some people, they are finding out that it simply doesn't work for them to be in a completely monogamous relationship or a heterosexual relationship. The only wrong about infidelity/adultery/cheating is the deception, not the act, if that makes sense. In that way there are many things that could be just as bad in a relationship if they involve the same amount of deception.

 

[Principessa]

No, there's only one wingnut posting here...but I can readily see how "her" brand of lunacy could drive others batshit.

I am not a wingnut! :angryfire2:​

:biggrin1: I prefer to be called Looney Toons or Batshitcrazy. :tongue:


​

 

[Lex]

...The only wrong about infidelity/adultery/cheating is the deception, not the act, if that makes sense. ...

I would go beyond this to note that, if it is discussed and agreed to as acceptable within the confines of the relationship, that sex with people other than your partner is not infidelity/adultery/cheating. Having permission to do things openly eliminates the aspect of deception and wrongness.


How else do you explain those kids that Abraham had outside o fhis marriage with his wife's permission when they both thought that she could not have kids?**

**Thanks to Freddie53 for sharing this with me YEARS ago.

 

[yngjock20]

^^Seriously.

It has to be established, the rules of the relationship. Just like anything. You don't go into something without consulting whatever rules are present, right? Same with relationships. There are no "givens" when it comes to what it takes to make something work.

The whole courtship period is supposed to be the time where people establish what they want out of a relationship...when you get engaged (or whatever) that's signifying that both of you know exactly what each other wants and you both are right for each other. So in the period between dating and marriage (or whatever) is when you solidify the constitution of your relationship.

 

[Jovial]

Wow, that's interesting. You mean, from a first date, it is understood that you will be exclusive?

A relationship begins with a first meeting/encounter/date, assuming we aren't talking about arranged marriages. At some point after the first date, the persons involved either choose to continue or not; if they continue, at some point, they will decide "the rules."

It has always been like that for you.

'Most' people assume neither until it has been discussed.

...and others disagreed with Ms.Teacher. I think it has to do with how you were raised or something. I kind of agree with Ms.Teacher, at least after two people have sex, unless it is a hook up at a bar or something.

The way I see it is if you have sex with someone, then it's either good or not so good. If it's good then why would either person want to go have sex with someone else? If it's not so good, then why continue seeing each other? Is it just that a lot of people are having bad sex with several partners, so they don't want to be exclusive? (This probably sounds terribly naive.)

In my (limited) experience it's either been that the sex wasn't very good, so I really didn't want to see her anymore, or the sex was good and I wanted to only see her. I've never had so many dating opportunities that there was a reason to not be monogamous.

I realize that's it's best to discuss monogamy early on so there is no misunderstandings.

 

[holmes 13]

people should learn to wak off more, it;s alot less trouble,and much less typing afer the deed. eg- I JERKED OFF!!!!1 YEAh!!!!!!

 

[Phil Ayesho]

no such thing as "monogamy early on"

Talk is cheap... everyone makes promises...


Wait 10, 20 years, with the same person.... then tell me how monogamous you were.


People who are faithful in 6 relationships over 10 years do not impress me.

They are changing partners more frequently than some couples even have sex.


Its like saying you're very successful at dieting... between meals.

 

[D_Kaye Throttlebottom]

That's very true, but as you can see from various responses, some people believe that monogamy is completely unnatural and bring up the animal kingdom to defend their case.

I'm a bit confused because you brought it up to defend YOUR assertion that animals ARE not monogamous Here:

...Animals aren't monogamous but they don't have emotional attachments and ties like humans. A human brain is far more evolved. Let's not in any way put ourselves back in the animal kingdom.

Again animals, like wolves, birds do develop emotional attachments and studies talk about the effect the death of their mate has on their behavior.

If you're going to say you cannot compare humans and animals to support infidelity, you cannot do the same to support monogamy or make a generalization that the majority of people do not cheat like you did here:

Thank you. You can't compare animals and humans. The majority of people do not cheat.

Moreover - I don't think Dragonfly20 wanted this to be a debate for pro/con agasint what someone ELSE choses to do. She's soliciting YOU for what you would do, yes or no.

So it would be useful if you just state YOUR preference, that you could not or would not and leave the shoulding about what others do or do not do - something they can speak to themselves. You're telling everyone else what they should think or do for them - it's not necessary and the thread is asking your opinion about what YOU would do, not your opinion on what others do.

 

[Principessa]

].[/b]..and others disagreed with Ms.Teacher. I think it has to do with how you were raised or something. I kind of agree with Ms.Teacher, at least after two people have sex, unless it is a hook up at a bar or something.

The way I see it is if you have sex with someone, then it's either good or not so good. If it's good then why would either person want to go have sex with someone else?

Exactly!

If it's not so good, then why continue seeing each other? Is it just that a lot of people are having bad sex with several partners, so they don't want to be exclusive? (This probably sounds terribly naive.)

Well if it's naive, then you are in excellent company, as I have always thought the same way.

In my (limited) experience it's either been that the sex wasn't very good, so I really didn't want to see her anymore, or the sex was good and I wanted to only see her.

I've never had so many dating opportunities that there was a reason to not be monogamous.

Neither have I. :frown1:

I realize that's it's best to discuss monogamy early on so there are no misunderstandings.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

So the 12 years I was with my last serious boyfriend doesn't give me the right to weigh in on this? BULLSHIT!

That depends... Why did it break up? Was there infidelity? What caused it?
Did you walk out on a good relationshjip because of a single mistake on his part? IF so... did you bother to try and understand what might have caused the infidelity? Did you honestly examine your own culpability in not supporting the relationship?

That is the only thing you have said which makes sense.

Well... that's kinda funny... cause I only said ONE thing in the whole post... It was all leading to the same conclusion... Perhaps you should wait for the punchline before condemning me.

According to John Gray, It is often the little things which over time will break up a marriage. Many marriages can survive an infidelity or the death of a child or even a traumatic injury or debilitative disease. What many marriages do not survive is the wet towels on the floor, squeezing the toothpaste from the middle, putting olive oil in the refrigerator or financial difficulties.

Um... maybe you should not read John Gray... cause if that really is what he said, then he's a functional idiot.

its not the leaving the toothpaste cap off that erodes a relationship...

Its when one of the people takes such trivial nonsense seriously and allows it to build into resentment.

NO ONE you will ever find will ever toe the line perfectly... they will all exhibit some little traits that you might find annoying...

But its not what they do that erodes mutual respect... its all in how YOU choose to respond to it.

The question is really very simple...

Can you only, love someone who meets your criteria?

Or can you actually , really, love and accept someone for the person the truly are?

Wet towels and all.


Wanting others to be as you demand... to do as you please.... that is not loving them...
that's playing with dolls.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

One of my first posts on this site was about polygamy. I am very pro-polygamy, and I think it's a natural part of the human condition. The fact that most traditional marriages end in divorce is very poignant, but most people seem to forget this reality when they fall in love. I wonder how many people have stood at the altar and truly believed that their marriage would be life-long, only to get divorced 5 years down the road. I also wonder how many people are riddled with guilt caused by a failed marriage, how many children have had to endure vicious divorces, or how many spouses have cheated in order to maintain their sanity.

The way I see it is if you have sex with someone, then it's either good or not so good. If it's good then why would either person want to go have sex with someone else? If it's not so good, then why continue seeing each other?

It seems to me that if two people are in love, they will stay together -- whether they are married or not. I've seen successful common-law and informal marriages. I've seen people date for decades. These types of relationships seem to be just as successful as traditional marriage, but less messy if they end.

Regarding cheating, I believe that an affair can refresh a relationship in some situations. One month of physical cheating can prevent decades of emotional cheating.

What if the wife loses interest in sex and her husband is constantly sexually frustrated? I've seen this scenario often: once the woman bags her man, and is no longer in the market, she lets herself go; she pops out a few kids then loses interest in sex; she gets fat and plain. Meanwhile, she expects her man to be just as sexually aroused by her as he was when they dated. If she thinks that the sanctity of marriage is enough to keep him faithful then she's setting herself up for a brutal reality check.

How else do you explain those kids that Abraham had outside o fhis marriage with his wife's permission when they both thought that she could not have kids?

Ahh, Hagar the homewrecker. The scripture is rife with polygamists, from Solomon to David. Judeo-Christians are really the last group to be scolding 'cheaters', considering their own canon.

Infidelity is only wrong because the majority of our society has been raised to believe that the ideal human relationship is between one man and one woman. Having multiple partners or extramarital relations is wrong only in the same way living in a homosexual relationship/lifestyle is wrong. For some people, they are finding out that it simply doesn't work for them to be in a completely monogamous relationship or a heterosexual relationship. The only wrong about infidelity/adultery/cheating is the deception, not the act, if that makes sense. In that way there are many things that could be just as bad in a relationship if they involve the same amount of deception.

Family Values™ seems to be a euphemism for Christian values, and it's the traditionalist Christians that are leading the charge against alternative. The Church invented marriage, and there are specific rules regarding sex, age, property etc. As you stated, this model doesn't work for everyone, but they offer little sympathy for those who can't stay true to their stringent code. I believe that people are not naturally monogamous, and that traditional marriage is really a cruel test that can ruin lives.

I am still waiting to meet the person for whom monogamy is normal and natural. My wife and I are devoted christian people as are most of our close friends. We know that we want to do these things. That's why it is wrong to judge harshly those people who fail. Whether their partner can forgive them is their decision. The rest of us should just do our best to support them. For those in relationships that allow other partners, good for you and I hope it last. I could never do it, but there are lots of things that I can't do that others do very well. You don't need my or anyone else's approval, just your partner's. If it works for you, then God bless you both.

That is generous of you. Since most marriages fail, I'm sure that you've witnessed more than one marriage fail. It's easy to judge, especially if your own marriage is relatively successful. It's funny how, these days, we judge the success of a marriage by how long it lasts, as if it's a hardship to "tough out".

Monogamy is no more natural than polygamy.

Monogamy is no more normal than polygamy.

In theory, but deep down, don't you want Bliss all to yourself?

 

[Ms.Teacher]

No, there's only one wingnut posting here...but I can readily see how "her" brand of lunacy could drive others batshit.

Mr. Hazelgod, one of the challenges of growing up is accepting the fact that you can't always be right. I'm kind of pitying your wife at this point.

I think it has to do with how you were raised or something. I kind of agree with Ms.Teacher, at least after two people have sex, unless it is a hook up at a bar or something.

Right.

The way I see it is if you have sex with someone, then it's either good or not so good. If it's good then why would either person want to go have sex with someone else? If it's not so good, then why continue seeing each other? Is it just that a lot of people are having bad sex with several partners, so they don't want to be exclusive? (This probably sounds terribly naive.)

After having sex with a new partner, I don't ask, "Is this a closed relationship or an open one?" I'm not a swinger. By the time I have sex with him, which isn't on the first few dates, we already know what kind of person the other is.

I've never had a guy ask me, "Now that we've been seeing each other for a couple of months, can we start having sex with other people?" And I've never said it to a guy either.

In my (limited) experience it's either been that the sex wasn't very good, so I really didn't want to see her anymore, or the sex was good and I wanted to only see her. I've never had so many dating opportunities that there was a reason to not be monogamous.

That's the planet I live on.

I realize that's it's best to discuss monogamy early on so there is no misunderstandings.

I assume it's monogamy unless otherwise discussed, and I've never had anything but monogamy.

And last night after reading this thread, I e-mail a group of friends and relatives, and they all felt the same way. They don't ask the person they're going out with whether it's a closed or open relationship. They all assume that it is just the two of them. And I'm not talking after a couple of dates.

Maybe you're all swingers and play by a different set of rules.

 

[marleyisalegend]

infidelity is wrong but it's eternal, its always going to be happening. the idea of two people being together exclusively is not natural, my argument being name one other animal on the planet that has marriage. if marriage were natural then, as someone posted above, the divorce rate wouldn't be sky high. i'm sure there are some men (and women) out there capable of fidelity, but most of us will ultimately fail seeing as how our most carnal instincts tell us to appease our sexual appetites defying logic and even disregarding who we may hurt. my proof?? look at all the threads talking about touching straight guys in their sleep. does this sound like healthy behavior?? no, but its all about what the person wants. basically unless u marry the hottest person on the planet, you're always going to be looking across the street at somebody else. nobody's perfect. i cheated once and regret it to this day. bottom line?? all we care about is our own satisfaction at the end of the day

 

[No_Strings]

In theory, but deep down, don't you want Bliss all to yourself?

We have discussed many possible courses that our relationship may take; every road is open for us. Many we will probably never walk down, others we may, but I can't think of any option that we haven't discussed and thought about. (That said, nothing is going to change immediately.) :biggrin1::wink:

 

[Ethyl]

In theory, but deep down, don't you want Bliss all to yourself?

I know this was addressed to N_S but I wanted to interject with a little truth no one talks about. It's understandable that many think monogamy is a given in the beginning of a relationship because we want to believe we are the only person they want, at least at that moment in time. We may want validation of our sexual, spiritual and intellectual attraction from the other person and that's also understandable. But not everyone thinks this. Some never assume that monogamy is the given course in a relationship. That's why the responsible thing to do is talk about it and make sure both parties have the same vision of the future or if there, in fact, is one.

I assume it's monogamy unless otherwise discussed, and I've never had anything but monogamy.

Anyone who assumes anything in a relationship is a bonafide idiot. Do you assume you have the same life goals? Or have the same sexual tastes? Or have the same philosophies on life? Or honor the same religious beliefs? I'l bet you talk about those with your potential partners, don't you? So why should anything be assumed about monogamy? It's just plain idiocy to do so and will eventually hurt you if you discover your assumptions were wrong.

And last night after reading this thread, I e-mail a group of friends and relatives, and they all felt the same way. They don't ask the person they're going out with whether it's a closed or open relationship. They all assume that it is just the two of them. And I'm not talking after a couple of dates.

So what? It doesn't mean they aren't foolish for neglecting to talk about it either. I didn't used to talk about it. I was once just like you. I assumed it was a given and it bit me in the ass. Did you not read my earlier post? For fuck's sake, learn from other people's mistakes so you don't make the same ones.

Maybe you're all swingers and play by a different set of rules.

No, we've learned that love is not always that simple. It's complicated. That's why you need to talk about your expectations. Making snap judgements will only get you labeled a fool.

 

[HazelGod]

Mr. Hazelgod, one of the challenges of growing up is accepting the fact that you can't always be right. I'm kind of pitying your wife at this point.

Pity? :lmao:

Save it for someone more deserving...like yourself. Envy would be more appropriate. My wife is both my best friend and my lover...the foundation of my strength and the support of my failings...the fulcrum upon which my world is balanced. Doubtful anyone would say the same of you.

And last night after reading this thread, I e-mail a group of friends and relatives, and they all felt the same way.

Maybe you're all swingers and play by a different set of rules.

Or maybe you're just another bleating ewe that's surrounded herself in a herd of like-minded (mindless) sheep.

 

[AlteredEgo]

After having sex with a new partner, I don't ask, "Is this a closed relationship or an open one?" I'm not a swinger. By the time I have sex with him, which isn't on the first few dates, we already know what kind of person the other is.

I find it interesting that you start this post out telling someone that part of growing up is discovering that you aren't always right, and then assume in the next paragraph that your approach to dating is the right one. It is the right one, but only for you (and whomsoever else chooses to live that way).

I used to date the way you do. (Minus the assumptions. I always liked to have things spelled out.) And then one day I wanted sex without monogamy. I never told anyone they could have me to themselves, and I told them all not to promise me anything because the last thing I wanted was promises. When I was ready to be monogamous again, I pursued a man over a period of months, I nurtured our friendship. I helped him through emotional trauma, and he did the same for me. We laughed a lot. We began dating, and this consisted of our same friendship, but with kissing, and groping, and walking hand-in-hand in public. After a few days of this, I asked if we were dating, and I asked if we could stop seeing other people. I called my fuck-buddies and canceled our upcoming dates, a few months prior because I was falling in love with two men and trying to choose between them. I was ready to commit myself to someone, but hadn't decided who yet. I broke up with the other guy I was dating, and my boyfriend and I verbalized that we wanted to be a monogamous couple (with the occasional 3-some sometime down the road).

I never assume anything. You know the proverbs about assumptions, don't you?

I am a phone sex operator. You don't know how many men in (supposedly) monogamous relationships have said of their encounters something along the lines of, "I never told her I wanted to stop having sex with other people. I just asked her if she wanted to move in."

I've never had a guy ask me, "Now that we've been seeing each other for a couple of months, can we start having sex with other people?" And I've never said it to a guy either.

Maybe your dudes are just like you, which is nice. Or maybe, they just know what to say, and what not to say which is also nice in its own way.

That's the planet I live on.

Really? I get asked out a lot. A LOT. Last night, a guy I thought understood I was never leaving my man, never having sex with him, and with whom I was never going to be interested in anything outside of platonic friendship with cried on the phone with me last night telling me how much he loves me and doesn't understand why I would choose my long-distance relationship with a career military guy over him since he's always here for me and wants to give me everything. I don't understand the idea that there are not opportunities to date. That's bullshit. Everyone you pass is potentially an opportunity. I don't go looking for them. In fact, I don't want them. I bet the same is true for my man. He's hot, young, funny, talented, dependable and I KNOW women are interested. He is momentarily oblivious (or kind enough to pretend) but even if he notices I do not worry. There are no assumptions between us. We have verbalized our expectations many times and we can both keep our word as far as I can tell. What does he do when he's in a foreign port? I assume he does his best to keep his promises. That's as far as my assumptions go.

I assume it's monogamy unless otherwise discussed, and I've never had anything but monogamy.

Actually all you know is you've never been anything but monogamous. The truth is you will never know what any of them have done when you aren't around. Ever. I know this from experience. I just found my ex-boyfriend's blog.

Maybe you're all swingers and play by a different set of rules.

Maybe. Or maybe we're just not as willing to make assumptions about other people, and since we cannot read their minds, perhaps we'd rather just talk things out. Why do you assume? Are you afraid of what you might hear, or read in someone's eyes if you have this type of discussion with them?

 

[Jovial]

its not the leaving the toothpaste cap off that erodes a relationship...

Its when one of the people takes such trivial nonsense seriously and allows it to build into resentment.

NO ONE you will ever find will ever toe the line perfectly... they will all exhibit some little traits that you might find annoying...

But its not what they do that erodes mutual respect... its all in how YOU choose to respond to it.

The question is really very simple...

Can you only, love someone who meets your criteria?

Or can you actually , really, love and accept someone for the person the truly are?

Wet towels and all.


Wanting others to be as you demand... to do as you please.... that is not loving them...
that's playing with dolls.

I don't think it's so black and white. One partner can't expect the other to change everything they do, but he/she shouldn't just completely accept how the other partner does things either. Sure, we shouldn't require our partner to change all these trivial things. But we could come up with examples that are progressively less trivial. If one partner was willing to change the way they do things for their partner, but the other partner didn't want to change at all, then it's disrespectful and that leads to resentment. In practice, one should pick the things that are most important and try to change them and just accept the less trivial things