Infidelity

[snoozan]

I have a few friends who have cheated on their mates due to alienation of affections or having lost a physical desire to be with that person for whatever reason. They knew at the time that they were wrong by having a physical and emotional affair. In the end they regretted it and the irreparable damage it did to their relationships.

It's not always this cut and dried. People cheat for many other reasons and there are many other outcomes than irreparable damage to the relationship. In your friends' case, I might venture that the end was coming anyway and the affair was just a death knell. Who knows. I just know that cheating is just not that simple.

If you are the person who has been cheated on there is nothing anyone can say that will justify that persons actions. If you are the person who went outside of the relationship for sex you will most likely never believe you were wrong in your actions.

Holy blanket generalizations, Batman!

As an aside, if I read "Doubt Means Don't" one more time, I'm going to hunt down Oprah and skull-fuck her till she dies.

 

[Ethyl]

If you are the person who has been cheated on there is nothing anyone can say that will justify that persons actions. If you are the person who went outside of the relationship for sex you will most likely never believe you were wrong in your actions.

You realise how much nerve it takes to tell someone what they felt, decided and acted after the fact, right? How can you not see how insulting it is to those who had to suffer through their own actions as well as others to learn the most difficult lessons in life?

I'm done posting in this thread. I can't stomach the amount of selective reading and comprehension here.

 

[HazelGod]

People are not naturally monogamous, in a way that is why patriarchal societies saw fit to lock their wives away.

Speaking of things that make no sense in human society...the whole notion of patrilineal progression was always ludicrous, at least up until the time when DNA analysis became a practical reality. Throughout history, the only parentage one could be absolutely certain of was the mother.

I'm done posting in this thread. I can't stomach the amount of selective reading and comprehension here.

This is exactly what I feared, Bronxy. God dammit.

Stick around, Bliss. Yours has been one of the few open and honest perspectives laid out here...and all bullshit aside, I've really appreciated it.

 

[marleyisalegend]

I think people are missing an important aspect of the construct of monogamy. Namely that you reproduce with one person, which in post sexual revolution times is significantly different to the morality of sexual fidelity, it is a biological desire. You don't want to find out that your offspring have half brothers and sisters running around all over the place anymore than that your wife/partner was knocked up by someone else and those little darlings aren't actually yours.

People are not naturally monogamous, in a way that is why patriarchal societies saw fit to lock their wives away. It isn't chicken and egg, we naturally fuck around for a variety of reproductive reasons. Men had the power to do this, so they did.

But now we have sex without fear of reproduction. It changes the issues. You can be reproductively monogamous yet sexually promiscuous. This is in keeping with human nature in my experience, actually I am not even sure that people want to be reproductively monogamous. To override your natural reproductive instincts is a personal choice between partners, at least for as long as you are partners, you can call your behaviour morality if you wish, but why have the need to enforce this on other people, and besides, hopping from one relationship to another simply emphasizes our inability to be monogamous? Your morality came from a different time with different issues.

EDIT - I'll go a little further. Claims of fidelity underlining a claim to be monogamous is disingenuaous. I was monogamous with him until I decided it was over, then I was monogamous with him etc etc. You are not monogamous, just sexually exclusive with different partners. This is how most people are today and it shows to me that we are not monogamous.

So conversely you can be monogamous yet be sexually not exclusive. Neither has a claim to be "morality" or better than the other.

you brought up a good point that i haven't seen spoken of yet. i read a book stating that a survey taken in 2000 revealed that as much as 38 percent of the men in this country are raising children that, unbeknownst to them, aren't really their own because of their wives infidelity

 

[Phil Ayesho]

nothing new...
if you are NOT producing offspring from other partners... then there is NO evolutionary point to cheating...

The primary reason we do it... are so easily driven toward it, is because it worked for disseminating our genetic legacy more effectively.

Humans are not the only animals wherein the female will try to get her male to raise the genetic offspring of another, competing male.

Women invest more in their children in terms of time, and numbers.... no matter how good her man is... its in HER genetic interest to have at least one other father in the mix.


That is our genetic legacy... the drives we all have.



But we humans are not just automatons acting out our genetic programming.

We are capable of ideals, of ethics, and of modifying our natural behaviors thru application of reason and will.

There is nobility in remaining faithful.

No matter how much I like sex, And I do... no transient experience of sex is worth the lifelong damage indulging that whim would do to the woman I love.

I can close my eyes and beat off to the fantasy.... and stay true.

I want the man I see in the mirror to be worthy of the way she looks at me across the dinner table.



But by the same token... I have walked thru the fire of a failed relationship.
I have lived in the lands of ennui and resentment....

And anyone saying that the cheater is always the one to blame is simply refusing to examine their own actions, their own behavior.

Sometimes the cheater is just a cheater.
Sometimes the cheater is a battered soul looking for a few hours harbor from the storm of condemnation and resentment that is their spouse.

 

[marleyisalegend]

lol at phil's post. cheater's don't cheat cuz they're horndogs, they cheat cuz they want to have SEVERAL families. let me know how that whole multi-family thing works out for ya

 

[Phil Ayesho]

yeah... that's exactly what I said.

Good readin, marley...
can ya cipher as well?

 

[marleyisalegend]

yeah... that's exactly what I said.

Good readin, marley...
can ya cipher as well?

and i can ride my bike real fast too

 

[Phil Ayesho]

okay... that was funny...

 

[HyperHulk]

My biggest issue with infidelity is the lying and how that seems so hypocritical and antithetical to the notion of a loving, mature relationship. I personally choose to be monogamous in my relationships. When I stop feeling the urge to be monogamous or I lose my desire for my partner and want to stray, well then it's time to leave the relationship, if we can't resolve things through communication. I just can't imagine telling someone that I love them and then doing things to them which contradict that love. How is that love or respect? I also have no issues with open relationships, as long as the partners negotiate and communicate the "rules". Open relationships aren't something that interest me personally though. I can't get over feeling that if you have to deceive your partner, than you're a pretty crappy partner and it would be better to be in relationships where you don't have to deceive someone than the ones where you do deceive. I refuse to be in denial about my own selfishness to commit infidelity. I also refuse to choose convenience over honesty. But these are all personal choices.

 

[Lex]

It seems to me that there are far more people IN relationships who seem to get the complex ideas in this thread than not. Sad. Maybe it explains a lot.
It angers me when people not in successful relationships judge those of us who are for not living our relationships according to their rules.

There is nothing fun about being alone on your moral high horse (at least as far as I can see there isn't).

 

[snoozan]

When I stop feeling the urge to be monogamous or I lose my desire for my partner and want to stray, well then it's time to leave the relationship, if we can't resolve things through communication. I just can't imagine telling someone that I love them and then doing things to them which contradict that love.

Not to sound like Dr. Phil (LPSG Dr. Phil, not the TV talk show host), but when I read things like this I wonder how long the people that say these things have ever been in a committed relationship. Not only is it somewhat judgmetal, it also seems to be the product of inexperience. There are so many challenges that come up in long realationships, even successful ones. Bailing at the slightest hint or even a lot of dissatisfaction is the antithesis of committment.

Also, people in relationships hurt each other all the time. Cheating just by virtue of what it is is no worse or better than anything else. There seems to be some sort of consensus among people here that cheating is above and beyond almost anything one can do that damages a relationship and I just don't think that's the case. Anything that drains money, time, emotion, care, and trust from a relationship is bad. The amount of those things something drains should be what determines how bad the transgression is. For example, I don't think that a guy is going out with his buddies every weekend and getting smashed while not caring for his wife or kids is any better than if she bangs the mailman once or twice. They are both wrong, but she would get the harsher judgement just because it's sex outside of the marriage. That's kinda bullshit to me.

 

[marleyisalegend]

It seems to me that there are far more people IN relationships who seem to get the complex ideas in this thread than not. Sad. Maybe it explains a lot.
It angers me when people not in successful relationships judge those of us who are for not living our relationships according to their rules.

There is nothing fun about being alone on your moral high horse (at least as far as I can see there isn't).

true, true. each relationship is different and cheating can't really be measured as normal behavior. it happens a lot but that's not something to be proud of, it causes pain, destroys marriage, costs this country millions of dollars a year, really serves nobody good except the person cheating. i have cheated once, been cheated on several times. in one instance i left the relationship immediately. i was also cheated on in a relationship that lasted 3 years and opted to try to work things out, solely because i didn't wanna walk away from a 3-year relationship. i believe cheating is just a weakness, an inability to commit and if you're not willing to commit, what are you doing in a committed relationship??

 

[HyperHulk]

Not to sound like Dr. Phil (LPSG Dr. Phil, not the TV talk show host), but when I read things like this I wonder how long the people that say these things have ever been in a committed relationship. Not only is it somewhat judgmetal, it also seems to be the product of inexperience. There are so many challenges that come up in long realationships, even successful ones. Bailing at the slightest hint or even a lot of dissatisfaction is the antithesis of committment.

Also, people in relationships hurt each other all the time. Cheating just by virtue of what it is is no worse or better than anything else. There seems to be some sort of consensus among people here that cheating is above and beyond almost anything one can do that damages a relationship and I just don't think that's the case. Anything that drains money, time, emotion, care, and trust from a relationship is bad. The amount of those things something drains should be what determines how bad the transgression is. For example, I don't think that a guy is going out with his buddies every weekend and getting smashed while not caring for his wife or kids is any better than if she bangs the mailman once or twice. They are both wrong, but she would get the harsher judgement just because it's sex outside of the marriage. That's kinda bullshit to me.

It seems to me you read some things into my post that I did not say. First, I was speaking from my personal perspective about how I view this situation for myself. I wasn't judging others. You may choose to see it that way but it wasn't my intent. I do know that these things are all shades of grey and that many variables exists. However, there are millions of people who have maintained relationships where they stay monogamous, so I know it's possible and it's what I aspire to for myself. From some of the comments, it would seem people are saying that if you're in a long term relationship, cheating is bound to happen--don't judge us and don't be naive. I don't believe that it is an absolute. I can't even speak for my partners, they may cheat on me. I just know for myself, personally, cheating on my partner, which would be having a sexual relationship that I hide from my partner, would be something I never want to do or intend to allow myself to do. And I think that is a fair choice for myself. Maybe something might change that--but I have the intent to be and stay faithful if we choose that type of relationship. I also never said that if my partner cheats, I couldn't work it out with them. I have to cross that bridge when I come to it. I simply want honesty with my partner. If my partner is unfulfilled or wants a different experience, I want the courtesy and respect that to be informed, so we can discuss it. For me, that is part of a mature loving relationship that I want to be involved in. If it doesn't have that, then I most likely will not want to be involved in that relationship. I will want to be free to seek out a partner who shares my values. If my partner and I decide to have an open relationship, then we live with that. What's unacceptable is the lying about something that I value. And if you want to know what drives this, well, I know too many people who have become HIV positive because their partner cheated. I would never risk someone's life that way and I pray my partner would never take those chances with my life. So I want a certain level of trust, which infidelity would violate. There are other reasons but for me, it really doesn't need much more than that.

 

[D_Portelay Porquesword]

It is only as complicated as we choose to make it.
People work on a marriage because they feel it is a common goal or ideal. I say work because any life commitment gay or str8 takes a great deal of work. We're only human, we make mistakes, we work on them, help each other through them and in the natural course of things get passed them.
Forgiveness to a point is a powerful thing, saying NO even more powerful.

When this equation is disrupted with infidelity the hurt that ensues can be devastating. Things get messy, there is anger and trust is broken.

Trust is a natural emotion and a genuine need is not?
The need for companionship and someone to share your life with, married or not is genuine.

Does it matter that King Solomon had many wives? Are we still living in those times? No. When you know better you do better. (Maya Angelou)

The whole idea is to progress and evolve. People have to make their own way in life, the way they see fit. It is their right. Whether we agree with it or not.

So then, polygamy. How do you deal with the issues related with that lifestyle? For instance what if the man gets tired of all the women he has at home and goes out and has sex with someone new? Isn't it the same thing with single partner relationships? How much happier are they than someone who chooses this as a life choice? Does he keep adding partners? When is enough, enough? I am not judging here, I am just trying to weigh out when you are actually listen to your consciousness over your need for sex with more than one person here?

You made the choice to get married to one person, or you made the choice to have multiple partners...what ever your choice do it with some dignity, some compassion and keep your dick in your pants and follow through with what you have chosen for yourself. I suppose this is called integrity.

If you choose to have sex with whomever you please, why bother with any kind of a relationship? Is it because you too need a companion of some sort, a companion that doesn't care you are out sleeping with others?
Are you absolutely sure, no matter what has happened in the history of mankind that this kind of free will is where happiness for yourself truly can be found?

If I am being honest with myself, I have to say no. (not everyone has to agree. Just my thoughts)
I also have to disagree with someone who sleeps around on a partner.
I also understand we all have needs, but aren't those needs subject to will and not penis/sex drive/libido?

When do we stop arguing and gaging ourselves by what Christians did when Abraham was alive and starting live now where it matters?
Allowing ourselves to be beings of presence and consciousness, no matter what the lifestyle seems to be a well rounded mandate. I'd hate to think sex has to be thought of as manic need for multiple partners and justified as such just because history or personal opinion deems it to be so.

Apologies if I pissed anyone off, it was not my intention.

 

[marleyisalegend]

I'd hate to think sex has to be thought of as manic need for multiple partners and justified as such just because history or personal opinion deems it to be so.
quote]


AMEN. the good ole' "human" defense. people seem to take being a flawed human as an excuse to exhibit the worst kinds of behavior
"yeah i killed him, i'm only human"
"yeah i cheated on my spouse, i'm only human"

if we're going to start justifying any kind of harmful and self-serving behavior with the "human nature" defense then i suggest you all lock your doors and never leave your house because at our worst, we're viscious.

here's a funny word i'd like to throw out there, responsibility

 

[snoozan]

AMEN. the good ole' "human" defense. people seem to take being a flawed human as an excuse to exhibit the worst kinds of behavior
"yeah i killed him, i'm only human"
"yeah i cheated on my spouse, i'm only human"

if we're going to start justifying any kind of harmful and self-serving behavior with the "human nature" defense then i suggest you all lock your doors and never leave your house because at our worst, we're viscious.

here's a funny word i'd like to throw out there, responsibility

no one here is arguing about any of that. the OP's intent (i think) wasn't so much to discuss the moral implications of infidelity but instead discuss why it happens and people's experiences. i feel like most people can't get beyond "well it's wrong! i'd never do it!" to have a deeper discussion about it. unfortunately, if you can't even discuss that you'd entertain the idea, you can't make any insight into it. i think there's been very little insight on this thread and a lot of moral posturing. i also think that it's bullshit that most people in long term relationships have never been seriously tempted at one point or another. we're human. we lust. we seek sensation, and after 10 years with the same person, don't tell me there's not some sort of thirst for most people for, if not greener, newer pastures.

 

[HyperHulk]

no one here is arguing about any of that. the OP's intent (i think) wasn't so much to discuss the moral implications of infidelity but instead discuss why it happens people's experiences. i feel like most people can't get beyond "well it's wrong! i'd never do it!" to have a deeper discussion about it. unfortunately, if you can't even discuss that you'd entertain the idea, you can't make any insight into it. i think there's been very little insight on this thread and a lot of moral posturing.

My response comes from the OP's first question, which asks, would you cheat on a partner/ltr? I gave a response of no and gave my reasons why. Because I answered no, I couldn't answer the other questions. Only the people who answer yes to first question could answer the others. It seems then that many people are answering the question posed by the OP, just maybe those answering it are in the NO camp.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

It seems to me that there are far more people IN relationships who seem to get the complex ideas in this thread than not. Sad. Maybe it explains a lot.
It angers me when people not in successful relationships judge those of us who are for not living our relationships according to their rules.

There is nothing fun about being alone on your moral high horse (at least as far as I can see there isn't).

Well said... and an important point

 

[marleyisalegend]

no one here is arguing about any of that. the OP's intent (i think) wasn't so much to discuss the moral implications of infidelity but instead discuss why it happens and people's experiences. i feel like most people can't get beyond "well it's wrong! i'd never do it!" to have a deeper discussion about it. unfortunately, if you can't even discuss that you'd entertain the idea, you can't make any insight into it. i think there's been very little insight on this thread and a lot of moral posturing. i also think that it's bullshit that most people in long term relationships have never been seriously tempted at one point or another. we're human. we lust. we seek sensation, and after 10 years with the same person, don't tell me there's not some sort of thirst for most people for, if not greener, newer pastures.

i apologize if i went off topic, i actually didn't read the OP i was responding to someone else who apparently must've gone off topic (but atleast it was still about fidelity). anyway, it's a given that monogomous relationships get boring and we get curious about the neighbors grass, but my question is are you saying that that justifies cheating or is the cause of it??