Intelligent Design in "Time" this week

[coolioc]

Just curious as to what people think about intelligent design and its promotion aross the country as an alternative in science class to theories of Darwinian evolution.

We have a lot of religion vs secularism debates going on in the etc etc topic right now, but this is another very hot button issue.

We have a lot of religious/conservative opinions on the board and I am very much so interested in what they have to say about the topic. I do have my own ideas, but I didn't get enough sense in the article of the real reason behind the seemingly all of a sudden push to add intelligent design (some people call it neo-Creationism) into the schools.

Seeing as I live in a blue state that is heavily into biotech, I don't have as many people in "real life (i.e. not internet people)" to ask.

If anybody does not know much about intelligent design, I can elaborate. I like these impromptu debates we're having here but please try to be kind. :loveya:

 

[Pecker]

One 'theory' is as good as the next.

What I mean to say is, until one or the other is proved to be fact, then both theories should carry the same weight.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by Pecker@Aug 10 2005, 02:22 PM
One 'theory' is as good as the next.

What I mean to say is, until one or the other is proved to be fact, then both theories should carry the same weight.

[post=334258]Quoted post[/post]​

uh, pretty sure that's the whole point. what with the overwhelming amount of archaeological and observational evidence for evolution, compared to ... let's see ... precisely none whatsoever for intelligent design.

 

[Pecker]

Oh, I'm not so sure, Doc.

Picture an omnipotent dad teaching his children how to create life:

"Good job on the leather winged creatures, everybody. Now I'd like to see what you can come up with that has feathers on it. Remember, as always, I must approve your creation before we release it!"

"Father, can I work on an animal a little smaller?"

"Not yet, dear, that will come later when you've perfected creating the big ones."

 

[Dr Rock]

actually, I didn't understand that either :shrug:

 

[Pecker]

Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Aug 10 2005, 12:57 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Aug 10 2005, 12:57 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Pecker@Aug 10 2005, 11:48 AM
Oh, I&#39;m not so sure, Doc.

Picture an omnipotent dad teaching his children how to create life:

"Good job on the leather winged creatures, everybody.  Now I&#39;d like to see what you can come up with that has feathers on it.  Remember, as always, I must approve your creation before we release it&#33;"

"Father, can I work on an animal a little smaller?"

"Not yet, dear, that will come later when you&#39;ve perfected creating the big ones."

[post=334294]Quoted post[/post]​

I&#39;m probably not the first one to say this, but damn if your every joke is over my head. :bigsmile:

[post=334297]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

Who&#39;s joking? Somebody had to be around to put things together according to the creator&#39;s instructions. He didn&#39;t just say abracadabra.

 

[Dr Rock]

problem with that argument is that it relies on the assumption that there is some kind of creator in the first place - running direly contrary to any scientific methodology you care to name. evolutionary science was based on an observational theory which was consequently demonstrated and proved correct; the intelligent design idea is based on a fallacy which is, by definition, IMPOSSIBLE to demonstrate or prove.

 

[Pecker]

Originally posted by Dr Rock@Aug 10 2005, 03:56 PM
problem with that argument is that it relies on the assumption that there is some kind of creator in the first place - running direly contrary to any scientific methodology you care to name. evolutionary science was based on an observational theory which was consequently demonstrated and proved correct; the intelligent design idea is based on a fallacy which is, by definition, IMPOSSIBLE to demonstrate or prove.

[post=334329]Quoted post[/post]​

I have to believe in a Creator. The universe (including you and me) hasn&#39;t completely resulted from random atoms colliding with oneanother.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Aug 10 2005, 08:02 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Aug 10 2005, 08:02 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Aren&#39;t those called "universal negatives"?

[post=334331]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

yeah, although that term is usually applied to theories which make at least some pretense at scientific rationale from speculation on existing facts - unlike the argument for the existence of god, which can only be justified by belief.

<!--QuoteBegin-Pecker@Aug 10 2005, 08:07 PM
The universe (including you and me) hasn&#39;t completely resulted from random atoms colliding with oneanother.

[post=334333]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]
and you know this how? given the evidence we DO got so far, it&#39;s a WAY more likely explanation than "durr, god did it."

 

[jonb]

I think Dr Rock has it backward: Creationism is impossible to disprove because any proof you can produce is just another hoax by Satan. Or, even worse, a hoax by GOD to test your faith. (Now, isn&#39;t that a bit petty?)

 

[Pecker]

On the Flip side, as Geraldine Jones said *head rolls, fingers snap*...

"Da Devil made me do it&#33;"

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by Pecker@Aug 10 2005, 08:07 PM

I have to believe in a Creator. The universe (including you and me) hasn&#39;t completely resulted from random atoms colliding with oneanother.

I&#39;m not being snarky towards you when I ask the following. The question is not intended to annoy or antagonize you. Instead, I&#39;m truly interested to know what you think.

Do you think the fossil record is patently false? Specifically, do you believe the fossil record was contrived by the creator to fool overly proud humans into believing they know a thing or two about how nature works?

Again, no flame intended. Just curious.

SG

 

[Pappy]

Well my big question is this, if we evolved from monkeys/apes, then why are there still monkeys/apes on earth?? They should have evolved themselves into extinction, shouldn&#39;t they??

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

Originally posted by Pappy
Well my big question is this, if we evolved from monkeys/apes, then why are there still monkeys/apes on earth?? They should have evolved themselves into extinction, shouldn&#39;t they??

Evolution does not state that humans evolved from monkeys; most evolutionists believe that modern apes and humans have a common ancestor.

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

Originally posted by Dr Rock+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-ChimeraTX
Aren&#39;t those called "universal negatives"?

yeah, although that term is usually applied to theories which make at least some pretense at scientific rationale from speculation on existing facts - unlike the argument for the existence of god, which can only be justified by belief.
[/b][/quote]
Yeah. The sole argument for Intelligent Design is the "complex" issue already brought up; there&#39;s nothing supporting it to show it as a working theory. Saying something is complex isn&#39;t evidence for its design. It&#39;s impossible to TEST whether or not something was designed. There is no possible model to support Intelligent Design other than turning an aardvark over and seeing "Made by God for Intelligent Design Productions, LLC. All rights reserved."

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by Pappy@Aug 11 2005, 04:56 AM
Well my big question is this, if we evolved from monkeys/apes, then why are there still monkeys/apes on earth?? They should have evolved themselves into extinction, shouldn&#39;t they??

[post=334434]Quoted post[/post]​

*cringe* umm, without meaning to sound nasty, I really recommend that you at least take the time to read and understand the actual nature of evolutionary divergence before you try to argue about it; otherwise you&#39;ll just make yourself look like an ass.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick+Aug 11 2005, 12:09 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr. Dilznick &#064; Aug 11 2005, 12:09 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Pappy
Well my big question is this, if we evolved from monkeys/apes, then why are there still monkeys/apes on earth??  They should have evolved themselves into extinction, shouldn&#39;t they??

Evolution does not state that humans evolved from monkeys; most evolutionists believe that modern apes and humans have a common ancestor.

[post=334435]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

Beyond that, let&#39;s look at another example: modern snakes are thought to have evolved from lizards, but that doesn&#39;t mean that all species of lizard became extinct just because one branch of Squamata evolved into a separate family. They had a common ancestor, so they belong to the same order, and both were viable, so both survived.

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by Pappy@Aug 10 2005, 08:56 PM
Well my big question is this, if we evolved from monkeys/apes, then why are there still monkeys/apes on earth?? They should have evolved themselves into extinction, shouldn&#39;t they??

[post=334434]Quoted post[/post]​

Not really. If I&#39;m alive, why are my parents still alive?

 

[GottaBigOne]

I don&#39;t know how many times this has to be stated but here goes once again:


That evolution occured is a fact, how it occurs is a theory.

 

[GottaBigOne]

Also, evolution and intelligent design aren&#39;t really that mutually exclusive. Evolution presupposes life, inteligent design (depending on how you look at it) is about the origins of life. So theoretically (hehe pun) god could&#39;ve intelligently designed a lifeform, then it could&#39;ve evolved.