Iowa Poll Goes to Bachmann

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798686

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.....but I think you're saying that the working class in the US tend to vote for the right wing party and in the UK they vote for the traditionally socialist party

I think a lot of it has to do with different cultures. American society is more religious than ours is (even though constitutionally they are infinitely more secular) so the socially conservative angle comes into play more often on issues like abortion and same sex marriage than it does here, where all the mainstream politicians are more liberal. Also the US had the cold war and the red scare/Mccarthyism, which scared a lot of people away from holding old school leftist views, and actually I think changed American society in more ways than a lot of people realise... and then there's the North/South divide which also divides people between the two parties traditionally. So it's a lot of reasons.
That's more like it! :tongue:

Cheers for the responses, ppl. :)
 

rawrg

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This is a very sweeping statement, but...why is it that uneducated, indigenous people in the States generally vote Republican, whilst in the UK they vote Labour?

Only thing I can think of is in the US, these people tend to think the Republicans will be better at protecting their country and way of life, while in the UK they assume Labour will be best at providing for them and preserving their traditional way of life?

Just an observation, very generalised and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but was trying to figure it out. :D

Both parties have an uneducated portion of their base. Just go to any poor black neighborhood, check the average level of education and then see how they vote. The republicans on the other hand have a pretty firm grim on poor southern whites and the deeply/overzealous religious.

I could go on and on, but the statistics show a fairly even spread:

CNN.com - Elections 2006

People with no H.S. diploma are heavy democratic voters, BUT people with advanced degrees are also heavy democrat voters. The basic left vs right views on the world aren't about intelligence. They're about priorities.

Take abortion for example. When does human life begin? When eggs / sperm are formed? When sperm meets egg? When a child is capable of being born? When the child is physically born? The answer to that question will usually determine how you feel about abortion in general.
 

Klingsor

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Conservatives will tell you that Democrats appeal primarily to poor, uneducated voters, while the better educated, better informed will vote Republican.

Then, in the same breath, they will complain that the faculties of American colleges and universities have an overwhelming liberal bias.

So apparently being better educated makes you a Republican. Unless you're really, *really* well educated.
 
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Conservatives will tell you that Democrats appeal primarily to poor, uneducated voters, while the better educated, better informed will vote Republican.

Then, in the same breath, they will complain that the faculties of American colleges and universities have an overwhelming liberal bias.

So apparently being better educated makes you a Republican. Unless you're really, *really* well educated.
Lol!

I was basically just observing that working class voters - the unthinking ones anyway, not all by any means - tend to vote right wing in the US, and left wing in the UK.

It's not the full picture though, obv - since there are many well-educated Labour voters in the UK, and I guess, educated/intelligent Republican voters in the US?! Altho, maybe that's slightly less clear. :wink: *runs*

Both parties have an uneducated portion of their base. Just go to any poor black neighborhood, check the average level of education and then see how they vote. The republicans on the other hand have a pretty firm grim on poor southern whites and the deeply/overzealous religious.
Yup - that's really why I said indigenous (wrong terminology, it seems, lol) - I meant primarily white or integrated US citizens. Ethnic or immigrant communities, while mainly poor, would probably usually vote Democrat for the same reason they'd vote Labour in the UK - because they're likely to be treated more fairly/sympathetically.

I guess a lot of it does have to do with priorities and mindset - with the religious dimension more prevalent in US politics than here.

Tbh, I'm not sure why deeply religious people tend to ally themselves with conservatism - maybe because they're more defensive of traditional values?... but I would've thought that caring for the less fortunate, and curbing greed and big business excesses was also important in terms of Christianity?

People with no H.S. diploma are heavy democratic voters, BUT people with advanced degrees are also heavy democrat voters. The basic left vs right views on the world aren't about intelligence. They're about priorities.
I'd got the impression that highly educated, free-thinking voters were more likely to vote Democrat (unless that impression is skewed slightly on here?), and also that those with no HS Diploma would vote Republican - but maybe that's only in the south or bible belt areas, as you say?
 
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Both parties have an uneducated portion of their base. Just go to any poor black neighborhood, check the average level of education and then see how they vote.

The Republican Party lost the black vote in the 1960's thanks to the Southern Strategy and consequently gained the Southern states voting bloc. And they haven't looked back since.
 

rawrg

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I'd got the impression that highly educated, free-thinking voters were more likely to vote Democrat (unless that impression is skewed slightly on here?), and also that those with no HS Diploma would vote Republican - but maybe that's only in the south or bible belt areas, as you say?

I'm not saying that you do, but too many people think that formal education and free-thinking go hand in hand. Autodidacts are becoming more and more common thanks to the availability of information these days. I've met graduate students who are little more than automatons parroting that which has been presented to them by their professors, and I've met construction workers who are incredibly lucid and cognitively brilliant. It takes determination, not so much cognitive ability, to make it through most college programs. That being said, someone with high cognitive ability will be more likely to finish college and work with their heads instead of their hands.

/diatribe

Back to the main subject, here's one big reason for the no H.S. diploma democrat voting rate:

Grim graduation rates for black males highlight racial gap

Democrats get 90% of the black vote, and blacks are 15% of the population. Only 47% of black men are currently graduating. Hence, you get a large block of people without H.S. Diplomas voting for democrats. This isn't the only reason however. A lot of people working in the trades, especially union trades, vote democrat. Unions and democrats are pretty tightly connected. These blue collar workers are more likely to have less education.

So there are lots of factors :biggrin1:
 

rawrg

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The Republican Party lost the black vote in the 1960's thanks to the Southern Strategy and consequently gained the Southern states voting bloc. And they haven't looked back since.

I won't argue with you there. Totally true.
 

dazedandconfused

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How is Ron Paul fringe and not electable? What issue is he on the fringe of?

You know, I like this forum, but there is certainly an underlying "holier than thou" superiority, yet you are forming your opinions on talking points about Paul that are given by the mainstream media when they actually do talk about Paul. In fact, politico and CNN admitted today the anti-Paul bias by the mainstream media.

I wonder how many people would have not become President who are usually highly regarded as the best among the best if the media culture was as biased as it was today. Off the top of my head, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, James Polk, Theodore Roosevelt and FDR...
 
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B_VinylBoy

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Back to the main subject, here's one big reason for the no H.S. diploma democrat voting rate:

Grim graduation rates for black males highlight racial gap

Democrats get 90% of the black vote, and blacks are 15% of the population. Only 47% of black men are currently graduating. Hence, you get a large block of people without H.S. Diplomas voting for democrats. This isn't the only reason however.

Do you really want to try and draw some correlation between the intelligence of people who vote Democrats by using graduating statistics of black people? :rolleyes:

As explained before, the reason why Democrats get the mass majority of the black vote is because Republicans continually invoke the Southern Strategy, which targets all different kinds of minorities and blames them for the ills of the nation in an attempt to secure a white voting population. The reasoning behind this strategy is simple... since there are more white people than all other minorities combined in this country, all they have to do is convince (or scare) them into believing that everyone that doesn't look, talk or think like them are the problem when something goes wrong in America. Lost your job? Blame it on the Hispanics and Mexicans who sneak over the border illegally and steal them. Paying too much on taxes? Blame it on those black "Welfare Queens" who do nothing but sit around and make babies just to draw a few bucks every month. And while you're at it, blame these three groups for all the drugs and crime that plagues your neighborhood as well. It's very effective in the South, alas in other parts of the country (especially more urban areas) it doesn't work so well.

Regardless of whether or not someone has a diploma, one learns very quickly that if a particular faction of people is constantly blaming you and your type for everything wrong in this country, collectively they're not gonna vote for you. Unfortunately for these Southern Strategists, they didn't expect a good portion of white people to get wise to the game and vote against them. This is what's happened over the last few decades, and better explains why some Democrats have been able to withstand GOP candidates who engage in divisive politics to win elections. It certainly has nothing to do with whether or not Democrats are represented by a large uneducated body due to a particular race's troublesome numbers when it comes to High School Diplomas, as you're now dishonestly implying.

Besides, as of 2009 the percentage of black people in this country, 25 or older, who have at least a HS Diploma was 84%. With a number that high, perhaps some black men could be doing something else besides getting a HS Diploma... like perhaps their GED. Something to speculate about if the ultimate goal is to get a clearer picture of how Americans vote. - African American Demographics, Population, Incomes, Veterans, Education, Voting — Infoplease.com

And in 2008, black people barely made more than 11 Million of the 125 Million people who voted in the Presidential election. Even if the graduation rate among black men is as low as the article you sourced, it's still a very SMALL number compared to the more than 66 Million who voted Democrat. And I'll give you a hint... most of the votes Obama received were from white people even though McCain had a slim majority among white voters. Meanwhile, all minority groups (Blacks, Asians, Hispanics and others) voted heavily for Obama over McCain by at least a 30% margin. If you need to figure out why Republicans lost during the last election, look no further than that. Let's just say that the "Southern Strategy" backfired and shot the antagonizers right in the face. http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1

I rest my case for now. But whatever... who am I to say otherwise with my "some college" education? We supposed to be all stupid and shit. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a toaster that needs a set of rims. And they're spinnin', muthafucka... they're spinnin'!!! :rolleyes:
 
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dazedandconfused

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Whats ironic is both parties screw over african-americans.

And you want to read about bat-S*** crazy professors, read "until proven innocent" and the Durham in Wonderland blog...
 

Tee&A

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VinylBoy, nah, yew stop makin' sense right nah. I means it. Negras ain't allowed to thank muh friend. We's just ain't...lessen our edumahcayshun be cawled intuh kwestion...

Seriously, though.

As absurd as the argument is, if education is used as the meter by which one votes, can anyone explain white voters with HS diplomas voting for people who have (on average) a Masters degree and/or post-graduate level education--not to mention a mint more in wealth than they possess? Is that like saying the decision of a white person with a HS diploma voting for a wealthy Republican can be directly associated to his lack of a college education...? If so, interesting... I'm sure Jane Sixpack and Joe the Plumber enjoy being called sheepling dolts--in an eloquent, affectionate, non-threatening way, of course...
 

B_VinylBoy

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Whats ironic is both parties screw over african-americans.

But they'll continue to vote Democratic anyhow because at least they do it with lube. They know the alternative prefer sandpaper. At the end of the day, we all are choosing between a douche and a turd sandwich. And there's no third party to truly consider since our electoral system is severely broken, therefore nobody outside of the (D) or the (R) can generate enough money to have a voice and contend.

But knowing how politicians are, I'm sure if a third party does grow to prominence it'll probably be a colostomy bag. :biggrin1:

Tee&A said:
VinylBoy, nah, yew stop makin' sense right nah. I means it. Negras ain't allowed to thank muh friend. We's just ain't...lessen our edumahcayshun be cawled intuh kwestion...

LOL!!! Love it!!!
 
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dazedandconfused

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Get to know Ron Paul. Many on this board would actually support him if they understood what he stands for. Hence why staunch democrats, such as Barney Frank and Dennis Kucinich have worked with him recently. In fact, if it was Obama vs. Paul, I think even Bill Maher would vote Paul.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Get to know Ron Paul. Many on this board would actually support him if they understood what he stands for. Hence why staunch democrats, such as Barney Frank and Dennis Kucinich have worked with him recently. In fact, if it was Obama vs. Paul, I think even Bill Maher would vote Paul.

Ron Paul needs to run as an Independent if he truly wants a chance to win. Alas, he just like so many of the supposed "black sheep" of the political spectrum run as Republicans because even they want that campaign money. And considering how far right the GOP has gone these days, Ron Paul comes off as being "too liberal" for many people who consist of the Conservative base. I'm certain that his teaming up with Barney Frank over legislation to legalize marijuana will not settle well, for example.

Perhaps Bill Maher would consider choosing Paul over Obama. But that final lineup isn't gonna happen anyhow, so why even bother speculating or telling others to vote for someone who has no chance in winning? The straw poll in Iowa represents less than 3% of the Conservative voting base in that state. Even with Paul getting a second place finish (behind Michelle Batshit), it means nothing as we move forward. It's either gonna be Romeny (through some miracle) or Rick Perry going up against Obama in 2012.
 

rawrg

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Do you really want to try and draw some correlation between the intelligence of people who vote Democrats by using graduating statistics of black people? :rolleyes:

Nope, that wasn't my intention, which is why I qualified my statements by stating that education and cognitive intelligence are two different things entirely. That said, one reason why the statistic for people without H.S. diplomas voting more heavily for democrats was higher. If most black people vote democrat, and there is a large portion of them without H.S. diplomas, then that will skew the number. I also stated that unions and the blue collar workforce associated with them is a big factor.

Side Note:

I hope it's apparent that I don't think black people are genetically stupid or are destined for failure. When generations of blacks are systematically denied education and the means to accrue and hold onto wealth through institutional racism, then their children don't get the same 'boost' that other people do in life. Poor people don't have parents that leave them money when they die, or give them money for college, or help them avoid foreclosure with a little money now and then to help them out, etc. Also, if the parents aren't educated, they will have a harder time helping their children with their education, or they may not see the value in education because they didn't need it to get by. Not to mention that the black population in our country has been decimated by poverty thanks to our declining demand for a blue collar workforce over the last 40 years, the only place someone without the means of higher education could make a decent wage and support their families. So now we've got a large portion of black people who are impoverished, and rightfully bitter towards mainstream society for screwing them over for so long.

During the civil rights movement, black leadership like MLK and Malcolm X proudly pushed for black people to go out, work hard and help themselves to the American dream, and despite the adversity, keep your head high. It didn't matter that the odds were stacked against them. They were going to fight it. Then some assholes killed those people and fucked it all up.

Today's 'black community' leadership like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and many of the representatives of the NAACP are pathetic and seem to spread the message of, 'It's not our fault.' They seemingly ignore the gangster culture that's very prominent among young poor blacks that embraces values such as ignorance, smash and grab opportunism, rebellion against authority, exorbitant luxuries, getting pussy, being tough, etc. They ignore these, when they should be lambasting it like Bill Cosby has for years, or the mayor of Philadelphia here did last week: Philadelphia mayor talks tough to black teenagers after 'flash mobs' - Washington Times

I honestly want to see the numbers of black high school dropouts to fall to normal levels, but until the black community finds some real leadership, that isn't going to happen. What pisses me off the most is that because of the really bad elements in poor black culture, a black guy who goes to work, takes care of his family, pays his taxes and is a decent human being all around is often treated differently. It's incredibly hard for black people to find work right now, and I can guarantee you that equally qualified, a white guy will have a MUCH easier time finding work, and a lot of that prejudice comes from seeing the gangster culture over-reported on the news 24/7.

So yeah, there's lots of factors, including dozens I haven't listed here. Just didn't want you to think that I'm just some racist trying to say that 'you shouldn't vote democrat cause them dumb black people are.' :biggrin1:
 

itsthepopei

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Get to know Ron Paul. Many on this board would actually support him if they understood what he stands for. Hence why staunch democrats, such as Barney Frank and Dennis Kucinich have worked with him recently. In fact, if it was Obama vs. Paul, I think even Bill Maher would vote Paul.

I have a lot of respect for him but i cant subscribe to the libertarian viewpoint for the same reason Communism wouldn't work people are greedy. libertarianism is dependent on the rich being fair and level handed to the poor and corporations acting responsibly and in the best interests of the public. As a philosophical view it was rejected in favor of egalitarianism.
 

dazedandconfused

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Ron Paul needs to run as an Independent if he truly wants a chance to win. Alas, he just like so many of the supposed "black sheep" of the political spectrum run as Republicans because even they want that campaign money. And considering how far right the GOP has gone these days, Ron Paul comes off as being "too liberal" for many people who consist of the Conservative base. I'm certain that his teaming up with Barney Frank over legislation to legalize marijuana will not settle well, for example.

Perhaps Bill Maher would consider choosing Paul over Obama. But that final lineup isn't gonna happen anyhow, so why even bother speculating or telling others to vote for someone who has no chance in winning? The straw poll in Iowa represents less than 3% of the Conservative voting base in that state. Even with Paul getting a second place finish (behind Michelle Batshit), it means nothing as we move forward. It's either gonna be Romeny (through some miracle) or Rick Perry going up against Obama in 2012.

I do not understand the republicans hate of him. CNN talked about the fact Rick Santorum broke the golden rule of debate in never talk to Ron Paul. He has never voted for an increase of taxes. He is getting ignored because he is not the neo-con like the rest of them. He is a true conservative old-school style like Barry Goldwater (I think we would all have been better if Goldwater had won in 64). Paul is running for the Presidency as a republican because thats the only way he can win, not because he necessarily wants to.

The number of people who do not even understand what he stands for is sad. A person who hates Ron Paul can argue to the LGBT community he is against gay marriage but also to the marriage between a man and women crowd how he will allow it (both are true but not telling the whole truth.n He personally does not support gay marriage but also feels the federal government has no right to say who can marry who and it should be left up to the states and church).

When people say he wants to legalize drugs and heroin, I want to pull my hair out. He is the only one who tells it like it is, tells exactly want he wants to do and has the record to back it up. No one can attack his record. It is funny you say he is too liberal. He is in line with classic conservatism.

I guess in America, it is like the Sonia song from the UK in 1993: "Better the devil you know."
 
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B_VinylBoy

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I do not understand the republicans hate of him. CNN talked about the fact Rick Santorum broke the golden rule of debate in never talk to Ron Paul. He has never voted for an increase of taxes. He is getting ignored because he is not the neo-con like the rest of them.

You understand more than you realize.

He is a true conservative old-school style like Barry Goldwater (I think we would all have been better if Goldwater had won in 64). Paul is running for the Presidency as a republican because thats the only way he can win, not because he necessarily wants to.

If you're trying to convince others with more left leaning mindsets that the reason why we should consider Ron Paul is because he's more like Barry Goldwater, then you're not helping matters. Goldwater's stances on key civil rights issues were skewed in my opinion, such as his disapproval of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for example. Much of who I decide to vote for determines on how well one tries to understand the struggles of people who are different from themselves and the willingness they have to make things better for those who really need the help. In many ways, Goldwater's ideology is parallel to the neo-cons of today putting business over the lives and liberties of human beings and disguising it under the distorted, political guise of "state's rights". And I simply cannot accept people who are that adamant in protecting the rights of business who care that much more about money than the stranger standing next to them.

The number of people who do not even understand what he stands for is sad. A person who hates Ron Paul can argue to the LGBT community he is against gay marriage but also to the marriage between a man and women crowd how he will allow it (both are true but not telling the whole truth.n He personally does not support gay marriage but also feels the federal government has no right to say who can marry who and it should be left up to the states and church).

It's not just the gay marriage issue with me, as I don't tend to be an one issue person.

When people say he wants to legalize drugs and heroin, I want to pull my hair out. He is the only one who tells it like it is, tells exactly want he wants to do and has the record to back it up. No one can attack his record. It is funny you say he is too liberal. He is in line with classic conservatism.

Even if he is in line with Conservatism as you say, the current state of their party (based on the ones that control most of the voices within it) is too far to the right to consider someone like Ron Paul as their GOP candidate. And if we really need to discuss issues about his record, I can find plenty of grievances to bring to the table -

-----------
1. He thinks the Roe v. Wade decision was harmful to the Constitution, positioning himself to be pro-life on Abortion. I find it exceedingly hypocritical for a man to dictate to a woman through oppressing legislation what to do with their own body in some convoluted attempt to protect the lives of the unborn. Women go through much more strife to bring babies into the world. They endure major physical and psychological changes and many have died trying to bring life into this world. So it should be up to them to make the decision to carry any baby to term. This doesn't make me "pro-abortion" because most women don't use it as a form of birth control. But it does make me pro-choice since I can sympathize with their struggles.

2. He's against gay people adopting children. Which means in a situation where if one of my relatives are no longer able to take care of their own children for whatever reason, he would push for legislation where I, as their "gay uncle", would not be able to adopt my nieces and nephews even though they and everyone else in my family fully accept me for who I am and my life partner. It may be true that some studies show that kids are raised best under traditional family structures. But not every person is born and raised with that structure and it's foolish to think that every child has to be.

3. He thinks Gender-equal pay violates idea of voluntary contract. So in some ways he's fine with the fact that women get paid considerably less money than men for doing the same work. I don't need to go into detail about how crazy that is.

4. He opposes “hate crimes” legislation. Which means the two men in Pennsylvania who beat up on a Mexican all because they didn't want immigrants living in their neighborhood wouldn't have been treated as harshly as they deserved by the law for having such antiquated and barbaric beliefs about people different than themselves. Men convicted of hate crime sentenced to 9 years in prison - CNN

We won't even get into too much detail about the two men in Mississippi who just decided to run over a random African American with their car. - Video shows white teens driving over, killing black man, says DA - CNN.com

If anything the last few years has proven, it's that racism is still alive and well in this country. Opposing "hate crime legislation" attempts to make people adhere to a colorblind standard that simply does not exist. We have to face facts that some people do heinous things to others just because they're different. Until incidents are reduced significantly, it makes no sense to be against "hate crime legislation".

-----------

And I could go on. But I honestly believe that Paul is not going to be one of the final two come 2012... not unless he conjures up the guts to run as an Independent where he may be able to sway voters that could go either way. But if he continues to chase after the GOP nomination, he like everyone else is going to run into the brick wall that is Rick Perry who is poised to get all of the major endorsements from the party as well as all the campaign dollars.