Iranian Dress Code

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by faceking, May 20, 2006.

  1. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    Ahmadinejad is indeed a crack pot... but such a shame, as Persian women are easily some of the most beautiful on the planet... be like flipping the Mona Lisa over and staring at the back of the canvas.

    Welcome back to the 5th century Tehran.

    TEHRAN, Iran - A draft law aimed at encouraging Islamic dress raised fears Saturday that Iran's hard-line government plans to re-impose veils and head-to-toe overcoats on women who have shirked the restrictions for years, letting hair show and wearing jeans and shapely outfits.
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    The looser social rules and dress codes are one of the few legacies left from Iran's once-strong reform movement.

    President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whose election last summer spelled the virtual end of the reformists' influence, came to office promising a return to Islamic values, with the support of clerical hard-liners.
     
  2. dong20

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  3. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    Sure the hell is.

    And I'd add that we have our own peculiar dated Western cultural issues to address before we start taking dead aim at Persian culture.

    As the saying goes: "Let's clean up our own backyard first".

    I wanted to comment on Indian culture too (as the English were once again maligned) since women in that culture suffer so badly too but again first things first.
     
  4. B_horribleperson

    B_horribleperson New Member

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    why do we care how others dress??? if they dress covered head to toe who cares

    its their nut job religion and customs shut up and get over the fact that they are different from us.
     
  5. dong20

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    We shouldn't but I think you're missing the point being made; which is that they have little or no choice in what to wear and trying to exercise any choice may result in fines, imprisonment, beatings or rape.

    How would like being told what you can and can't wear on pain of the above and then being told to 'get over it'.:rolleyes:
     
  6. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    "The mind is a terrible thing to waste" :biggrin1: :rolleyes:
     
  7. B_horribleperson

    B_horribleperson New Member

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    because that is how their religion and culture is set up. it has been that way for over 1,000 years.

    and until THE PEOPLE OF THAT AREA CHANGE then and only then they will move more inline with OUR CULTURE AND CUSTOMS. but it wont happen because outsiders demaning the change.
     
  8. dong20

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    Maybe they don't want to move inline with our 'culture and customs'....possibly because they have their own which pre-dates ours by centuries.:confused:

    In the context of this thread, all they want is to be able to wear a pair of jeans without having seven kinds of crap beaten out them or raped....not much to ask in my book..
     
  9. D_alex8

    D_alex8 Member

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    Full-veiling is a pretty recent phenomenon in most areas of the Middle East. When I grew up in Egypt, one saw it once in a blue moon .. these days, with the rise of politicized Islam, it is an everday sight on the streets. Likewise, women in urban areas of Persia throughout the 20th Century up until Khomeini's revolution were free to wear what they liked, with many opting for Western garb (blouses/dresses). Watch any footage of general street life in Iran predating that period and you'll see that immediately. The current regime is seeking to force an antiquated mode of dress onto women for spurious reasons based on fundamentalist goals -- and that does not equal a simple "continuance of tradition".
     
  10. dong20

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    Indeed, it's a common misconception...and one I held years ago, I've not been in Egypt since about 1990 but my recollection is as yours. I was in Jordan in 2003 and rarely saw a veil although I'd say Jordan is more 'liberal' in this aspect.

    In fact I've seen as many women covered head-toe in London in any given week than in almost any Muslim country I've visited, but at least here they have the choice (legally anyway).:rolleyes:
     
  11. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    Like I said...or alluded... many/most Persian women are elegent, beautiful, cultured and sweet. (Lebanese too, on the MidEast tip). Such a shame. Although most Persian women I've met have been very sexy, they aren't "sexual" by nature. Maybe just my observation.

    Having dear friends from Iran, and hearing so much (late 80s-early 2000) about how great the country was... diversity, culture, society, etc... just a bummer to see them take step back.

    Besides, why do we care about half the postings in the Et Cetera sub-thread... at a minimum of interest.
     
  12. Doc

    Doc New Member

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    Personally Dong I know the Middle East very well, and I still continue to live there. If you had been in Egypt for such a long time, you will clearly realize that a lot of cultures believe vieling is their right. In Egypt alone, several of my friends ended up vieling. I actually dissagree with vieling entirely, but I do agree with what people choose to do. There is a huge community of Egyptians in particular that would love to see vieling reintroduced.

    As for Persia, you claim that all these women want to wear western clothes. I highly doubt it. In a culture as domineering as that of Iran, chances are most of the people tow the official line. And women honestly believe they should wear the hijab. However since the reform movement eased things up, more women than before probably started bending the rules and enjoyed it. The sad thing, is that these women are now stuck. They have to follow the new rules, and they clearly don't believe in them. As for prison and rape and beatings for not wearing the hijab. Get off your high horse and look around, do your homework before you make such clearly ill informed nationalist statements.

    Hopefully Iran will once again swing back to reform, but thanks to the Bush administration plonking them in the axis of evil, we witnessed the death of the reform movement and are now stuck with Ahmedinajad (or however you spell that name).
     
  13. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Turning the clock back is a fundamentalist specialty.
     
  14. DC_DEEP

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    In the west, we tend to have a different view of these kinds of things, but that is a prejudiced view. What we may see as oppressive or barbaric, they may see as normal. And even those who live in the middle east who don't like it will generally go along with it, because "that's just the way things are. I'm just one person, so I can't change anything." Sound familiar? The people of a culture, as a whole, will either accept or reject certain things, and most cultures, even if there are aspects they do not like, resent outside pushes for change. I'm sure there are cultures outside the US who consider circumcision to be the most horrific and barbaric practice, but in the west, there are only a few who are vehemently opposed to it. Most either embrace it or say "I don't like it, but that's just the way things are here." And most people in the US would be incensed if one of the European countries tried to abolish the practice here. It's always easy to point out the failings of another culture.
     
  15. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    Great post DC.

    I agree. We in the west (much as I espouse equal rights for all people) tend to think our "civilized" way has to be, simply by its "betterness", the way for all cultures. Do I take issue with certain culture's views on women and homosexuals? Damn straight. But who are we to suggest we have the ultimate solution when our own backyards are so fouled with unfinished business. We project that which we do not practice. It's a deadly flaw in Bush's plan to homogenize Iraq.

    This is precisely why there's a insurgency bordering on civil war in Iraq. One look at a MacDonald's in an ancient palazzo in Venice makes it very apparent that this American culture should not, of necessity, be imposed on others.
     
  16. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Very true observations. What is insane can be unnaturally normal.

    My observation is that your observation is not a solution. People do need to acknowledge dysfunction in culture and not say they don't have an influence. Just like dysfunction in Afghanistan after a generation of civil war made them accept the Taliban as better than nothing, so too can things go the other way. I do not accept that cutting off ears and hands is a lawful practice.

    As you point out U.S. culture has its dysfunctions. I for one am trying to do something about it.
     
  17. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    I tried to edit my post and didn't realize that you only get five minutes to do so. Below are my edits.
    _________________________

    Very true observations. What is insane can be unnaturally normal.

    My observation is that your observation is not a solution. People do need to acknowledge dysfunction in culture and not say they don't have an influence. Dysfunction in Afghanistan after a generation of civil war made them accept the Taliban as better than nothing. I do not accept that cutting off ears and hands is a lawful practice. So too can things go the other way.

    As you point out U.S. culture has its dysfunctions. I for one am trying to do something about it.

    Everybody has problems. This is an observation, not a solution.
     
  18. dong20

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    Doc, I think you misunderstand me. I'm speaking from my own experiences in the region as you are speaking from yours. I said that I was in Egypt for some years ago I didn't say for how long :confused: and I also didn't say I saw no full-veiled woman, just fewer than I expected...same in Jordan, Lebanon etc.

    I agree that many people in that region, men and women, want to see full-veiling to some degree or another, but few expressed the view at least to me, that it should be mandatory let alone enforced by brutality and believe it's not for them to force their values on others, and before you say it, that's not what I'm doing; I'm not advocating abolition or imposition, I'm advocating choice.

    If you re-read what I said before accusing me, I did not say 'all' women (OK I perhaps I should have said SOME women :rolleyes: ) want to wear western clothes some or all the time, I don't speak for these women as you seem to. I'm stating my opinion based on what some people have told me, and what I have seen and read.

    I also didn't say they should abandon their culture (please re-read what I said - I very clearly stated the opposite) and by inference 'run through the streets scantily clad' so please don't put words in my mouth. They may live in societies that to varying degrees oppress their rights in this and other ways but those are their cultures and it's not for us in the west to project our 'values' upon them, however tempting. But does that mean they should knuckle under and 'tow the line' as you suggest in the face of oppression if it's not what they want?

    With that attitude where do you think civil rights would be in the US for example, would Apartheid have fallen as soon without outside pressure? There is a world of difference between abandoning one's culture and allowing gradual change from within where it's desired, but that change should as a rule come from within.

    Iraq is a salutary lesson in the futility of attempting to foist a western style democracy on a nation because it's the 'right thing to do' rather than because that's what the country wants. Apartheid was an exception or are you suggesting the world should have stood on the sidelines and let SA sort it out itself? I appreciate it's a fine line sometimes, but there are times when you have to speak out. How wrong does something have to be before you do so is what I'm asking.

    Some women want to retain the choice about what they wear that had under previous regimes, explicity granted/rule bending or not it did exist. Who are you (or I) to deny them that? Yes, their own culture imposes those values and it's that same culture that must relax or rescind them if that's what the members of said society desire.

    :confused:
    I'm not on any high horse and the things I refer to have occurred there, elsewhere in the Muslim world and, sadly here in the UK. I didn't say it was the norm or happened all the time, you made that inference on your own.

    I could perhaps suggest you should take off your rose tinted spectacles and then perhaps we can discuss and maybe reach agreement that there are few if any absolutes in these situations. Doc, just because you haven't seen something happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen.:rolleyes:

    Accusing me of making 'ill informed nationalist' statements is not constructive and it certainly isn't accurate. To be honest I don't really understand the context..what's 'nationalist' about opposing possible human rights violations.

    It's the suppression of those rights and it's morality in a human rights context that I am talking about, not the rights or wrongs of an Iranian fashion police.:rolleyes:
     
  19. DC_DEEP

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    ???I was not attempting to offer a solution, simply pointing out that just because we don't understand why the women in the middle east dress as they do, that does not mean that it is our obligation to intercede. And yes, I do work hard at changing what is wrong in our country. I don't just simply do it from a "my point of view is right, everyone else is wrong" action, either - I understand how our government is structured, and I understand that the US Constitution is supposed to be the supreme guide to our legal system... and I encourage my legislators to follow that supreme guide (doesn't mean that they always do) and I encourage everyone I can to do the same.
     
  20. Doc

    Doc New Member

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    With the lengthy response I've got from you, I can only infer several things.

    One, you feel the need to defend yourself with semantics for a clear position you stated, villifying the Iranian states policies several times over indicating that rape was used by the authorities as punishment as equally as imprisonment for the lack of wearing the Hijab. You may not have said it, but that can clearly be derived from your repeated us of rape in the context you used it. And that is why I got upset enough to write a response. This is an important point, because carelessness about sensitive issues like this is exactly what fans the flames of discontent currently between Americans and Muslims in general. I am neither, but I have live with it. All I'm asking you to do, is know what you are talking about. I certainly do.

    Two, you feel the necessity to draw me into a protracted discussion about your above said points in hopes of validating yourself or you earlier claim. Get over it. When you've made a mistake see it, learn from it, and move on.

    Three, I have neither the time or the desire to try and explain to you a position of mine which you will no doubt not care to listen to anyway.

    As for yourself, I have no problem with you as an individual. I do not appreciate your passive agressive comments you dispersed throughout your last post, but that is normal if someone feels a bit hurt and wants to retailiate (I admit I was a bit harsh in my tone of my earlier post). If you want to put away your guns I will put away mine.

    So have a good day, and next time you want to bash another cultures way of doing things in a public post, realize there are alot of people watching, and they might have far more emotions and intelligence invested in your subject than you might realize.

    Personally if you want to get back into a normal discussion I am more than willing to chat about points that intrigue you about this part of the world, otherwise you probably won't get much from me on this topic, no disrespect.:wink:
     
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