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Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by johnstone1985, Feb 3, 2003.
Just wondering what you all thought.
ORCABOMBER: I'm wondering why the only countries that aren't in a direct threat are going alone, I mean, hello.... what about the dudes who live next door? They're not going to be thankfull when we save their asses.. again.
Some of those "dudes next door" may be next!
mindseye: *shrugs* I have to wonder why the US consistently turns a blind eye to human rights abuses in China while focusing its attention so intently on Iraq. Is it because the Bush family didn't go into rice? Or is it because China has the capability to strike back? Frankly, I find either of these unsettling.
ORCABOMBER: Bilbo, I reserve all judgement
Mindseye, I don't really believe that this is just about human rights abuses. It's saddeningly harsh, but their are many other countries that would do what Sad-dam would do, if they got the chance.
Iraq Crisis? or a crisis in ethics?
as a member of america's mushroom majority (kept in the dark and fed s***), i do know that there is no clear or compelling reason in terms of threat to the u.s. to go into a war with iraq. we have been promised convincing evidence in the past.....but bush-cheney have failed to deliver. will they in the future? i doubt it.
i may think that saddam should be replaced and the world would be a better place without him; but this is not sufficient justification to go to war.
i happen to believe that a war with iraq will bring together radical, fundamentalist islam with a secular nation that in the past has been fearful of islamic fundamentalists and ignite a war throughout the mideast. so what is likely to happen under this scenario? down go the governments of yemen, saudi arabia, jordan, the gulf states, egypt, perhaps syria, and even turkey.
ethics? well, there is no moral justification for war against iraq (on this, i agree with the pope) and the inhumanity of the war on the iraqi people....brutalized by the regime and by the u.n. sanctions. they are barely getting by now....and the long term environmental damage to an important agricultural region, the use of depleted uranium ordinance in the fertile crescent will lead to the contamination of surface and ground waters. and yes, uranium is very mobile in environmental waters...so in the fertile crescent, the result is contaminated water and soils used for food production. this is a matter of environmental ethics and our responsibility to the future generations.
:-/ :'( :'(
sorry, this is so long....but the anti-war genes are showing.
BIGBOYDAVE: He George is an iligal president.
He is doing this to prove to his Dad that he is a better man .
He has gone too far now to turn back. He will not back down.
He has to prove his manileness to the people.
Sadam is just as crazy and should go but it is not Bushes Or Americas Or Britan's place to do it.
The most powerful country in the world is afraid of a man bottled up in his small country , Really what can he do.
I am Sorry but a lot of innocent men women and children are GOING TO DIE for an american family fude .
And this Man Bush will lead the world into another world war For What Pride & Oil
Its another sad day in the History of Mankind
Another Probably littledicked Little Man Fucks the World and destroys cities and upset millions of lives costing billions of dollars and repeats again history
If we are to survive this coming hollicast we must work together with all nations to get rid of Tirants Like Sadam and Bush
And today the only way is To work With The United Nations Not Declare War On It As Bush And Blair Are Doing
But I am afraid its already too late I just Sit here waiting for It To begin Helpless Like the Rest Of the world .
Madmen are in Control
International relations and international law are very-very slippery. What X will do today to Y creates a precedent. You never know when you'll see the principle Q applied against the one who use it now.
I just have to remember a simple historical fact: Suez, 1956. When France and UK needed support against Nasser's Egypt, US denied any legitimacy of France-UK joint intervention. Egypt was supposed to "develop freely, as a sovereign nation, not as a European colony". Ok, France and UK lost the game. Both countries used the same argument when US started the war in Vietnam : "why not letting Vietnam to become Communist ? It should develop freely, as a sovereign nation", why US interference ? Hence, no European support in/for Vietnam.
I just take out this example from history. NOBODY knows how future may be for the present attackers. Violence will be always replied by violence. Be it sooner or later.
bradleeM: All of you have an opinion on this and that is great. But where is the proof behind your statements?
Anyone who believes that this is just a "American family feud", to control the oil, to kill innocent people, etc., is naive.
No one supports War as the option to solve issues and problems, and President Bush does not support that method either.
Those of you who support the use of the UN to resolve problems and issues peacefully, they have had 12 years to make Iraq comply with all of the previous resolutions. None of them have succeeded. Look at all of the Terrorist incidents since 1991, that Al Quaida and Iraq have committed, 9/11, Bali, and others, just the latest ones.
The USA has "compelling" evidence of complicity between Hussein and Bin Laden, 9/11 being one of the events they supported each other with.
The American Doctrine, given to the world after 9/11, is explicit. This nation will not wait to be attacked by its enemies, it will strike first when it has evidence of future attacks.
Let me ask each one of you this question: What would have been the response of the following countries if they had been attacked on 9/11 instead of the USA:
China ........... If Peking had been attacked
Russia ........... If the Kremlin had been destroyed
France ........... If the Paris had been attacked
Germany ........ If Berlin had been attacked
What everyone needs to keep in mind is this: We live in a world where horrendous events can happen with just one briefcase and one person willing to give their life for a cause.
Whom among us wants to pay that price?
If one of your neighbors had been stirring up trouble for years and you just found out that they now had the capability to blackmail you, as well as everyone else around them, with weapons of mass destruction, what would you do?
How would each of you had responded if you were President of the USA and 9/11 happened on your watch?
You have the responsibility................what is your decision?
BIGBOYDAVE: Thats Just The Problem In a nutshell The USA has no real proof of Iraq involvement in 911.
911 was a horendous act to be done to any country or city or people
That does not justify being the bully and going after everyone else without proof. And at The Same Time Dictating to all other Nations and people of the world That You are With us on this Or You Are Concidered Our Enemy Also.
Go Back and Read George's Speach to the Joint Senate and congress imadetily after 911. There is much info there as to what is going on today and why he is treating the other nations as he is.
Except for Britian and a few other Nations He is Isolating America from Reality in dealing with them .
And as For Tony Blair He will not Last Much longer as the vast majority of his people are against the stand he is taking.
Did You not listen to the British Diplomat Last Week tell the world that If France and Germany veto a war resolution at the Un that It would be concidered a DECLERATION OF WAR ON ENGLAND AND USA>
How fucken redicilous Now We are declaring War on The Un . This is going too far.
This Is the Kind Of attitude that lead to 911.
What happens next After Iraq.
As I said before history Is Repeating Itself again This Sounds too much like Europe before WWII and its getting more apparent daily as the Diplomats fight it out and threaten each other eventually its gonna blow up and Then We will look back IF WE CAN and wonder what It was all about.
Actually, Ralexx, Bush is attacking first. That's what "pre-emptive" means. "Pre-emptive nonaggression" is oxymoronic.
BIGBOYDAVE: U r very right he will attack first as he cannot turn back now otherwise he would loose Face to his own people. The Man is to far committed to stop :-[
7x6andchg: Sadly enough BBD you're right.
The US is having to put up with the fact that because Daddy didn't finish the job (George Bush I) we have a bone to pick with Saddam.
I for one would like to see some proof of his involvement with Al-Qaeda, with terrorism, with 9/11, before we go committing ourselves to this thing...but I know we won't see it.
Somewhere our "government by the people, for the people, and of the people", got HORRIBLY off course, I think.
Just my 2 cents.
Just tune in when Secretary Powell addresses the United Nations.
Then again, never mind.
Such bitterness as displayed here will not be lessened by the truth, will it?
BIGBOYDAVE: U are Right on that one too
The Somewhere Was When The Supreme Court Overuled The People On who Should Be President
The Decision Was Made By A very Few People In Robes With All The Power and the final say
Something like the Old Roman Empire
Now The People have no say Not at this Time Anyway
Its all up to Our Fearless leaders who will sit in cosy armchairs and decide our futures and send thousands of young men and women off
to do the killing and dieing for them and there egos
Shame Shame Shame
I'm not saying I won't listen to the truth, in fact, I'd like to hear it.
I think that, because of our friendship with Israel, and our interest in the peace of that area of the world, that something does need to be done (which was my vote on the poll)...but I think that at this time, with our country's budget running in the red, not to mention many states' budgets, as well as a host of other internal problems...well, if we're going to go to war, I want to know exactly why. Is it oil? Is it to finish the job that started 12 years ago? Is it because secretly some of Iraq's neighbors asked us?...that's all...as a citizen of the United States I think I am owed that. After all, we all pay for the government, shouldn't we know what they are going to do with our money?
I do fully intend to watch/listen to Sec Powell's address to the U.N. If the evidence provided is convincing, then perhaps my vote of "do something" would change. For now...I remain a little skeptical, is all.
pokjbv: I know this is going to be a very unpopular point of view, but I FEEL that the war was begun in September 2001 and that it was an attack by fundimentalist Islam against all western culture. History has taken a revolting but inevitible turn for the worse. It is only a matter of time before there is another attack, in other countries too. We will be, are being forced to try to stop a foe that wants us dead with no reason other than we exist. It is BS to say it is our Isreali position, or that we are grabbing the oil, these are smoke screens. If Islam was a person it would be found clinically insane and locked up as a threat.
And, this is a war that cannot end by means other than genocide, that is the hard part. Had moderate and cooler heads within Islam acted to put a stop to their violent ways, and the history of Islam is filled with blood, then we would not be talking about this. But, they did nothing while the rabid fundimentalists built bombs and taught hate. Now we will never be able to tell the terrorists from the ordinary Moslem, and so we will have to contain them, and that usually means death.
I was in New York on September 11, and I can tell you that I still smell the smoke and I want revenge. I do not like Bush, I do not believe he was elected legally but appointed illegally. I hope higher oil prices mean a shorter time till we are using other energy sources. I hope that someone in Islam that is powerful enough and rational enough to lead the mass of Muslims will arise to save the day, but do not bet on it! And, if it is to be them or me, you can bet your ass it won't be me and my family. I am a disabled veteran and would still fight to save my life.
And you may be right...my only point is that I wish someone would TELL us the reason...all 280 million of us.
Again just my 2 cents.
BIGBOYDAVE: I'm with Paul
I am waiting to see the Proof And I do hope he has it. But I also await the speeches of The Other Members of Our World community To see what there reaction is. Democracsy should be the rule in the UN also
Let not what one man says representing One Nation Bring the world into total caos
If the Majority rules a war is necessary then I will Reluctnly accept it only because so many lives will be ruined and lost.
If there is anyother way Lets look for it But lets not be lead away by one or two countries and there leaders even if they are our Leaders
So Much is at stake here and its not Just Iraq . We and all the peoples of the world will have a long time I Hope To Live With What Is about to happen
Read Some Of The Last Words Written to Family and Friends by The Late astronaut Laurel Clark just last week regarding our Planet
The day before she died, she sent an e-mail home to family and friends:
"Hello from above our magnificent planet Earth. The perspective is truly awe-inspiring. This is a terrific mission and we are very busy doing science round the clock. Just getting a moment to type e-mail is precious so this will be short, and distributed to many who I know and love.
I have seen some incredible sights: lightning spreading over the Pacific, the Aurora Australis lighting up the entire visible horizon with the cityglow of Australia below, the crescent moon setting over the limb of the Earth, the vast plains of Africa and the dunes on Cape Horn, rivers breaking through tall mountain passes, the scars of humanity, the continuous line of life extending from North America, through Central America and into South America, a crescent moon setting over the limb of our blue planet. Mount Fuji looks like a small bump from up here, but it does stand out as a very distinct landmark.
Magically, the very first day we flew over Lake Michigan and I saw Wind Point (Wis.) clearly. Haven't been so lucky since. Every orbit we go over a slightly different part of the Earth. Of course, much of the time I'm working back in Spacehab and don't see any of it. Whenever I do get to look out, it is glorious. Even the stars have a special brightness.
I have seen my 'friend' Orion several times. Taking photos of the earth is a real challenge, but a steep learning curve. I think I have finally gotten some beautiful shots the last 2 days.
Thanks to many of you who have supported me and my adventures throughout the years. This was definitely one to beat all. I hope you could feel the positive energy that beamed to the whole planet as we glided over our shared planet.
Love to all, Laurel."
It Is Our Shared Planet And oh so Beautiful Lets Keep it that Way Lets strive for a peasful resolution to the curren crises
BIGBOYDAVE: Human History Is full of People Begging to know the truth be they Islamic Christian Moslem Jewish or any other religion but all All have been Diabolical in the Past in what wars they have reaped upon this planet and its peoples
and none have yet answered to there people