Iraq Crisis

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BIGBOYDAVE: Quote from messag a few back
I trust my govt that much, regardless who the political leaders are. I do not want them coming to me to get my approval before they act.

I guess that left the German People blameless as to why they did nothing when there goverment started to slaughter millions of men women and children
They trusted there Government to DO THE RIGHT THING
Only It was too late for them later on to git rid of Hitler and his cronies and yes men
What a wonderful Liberating Concept
 
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BIGBOYDAVE: pokjbv
I am sorry u are hurt and can understand your pain etc
as I said before
But I now See there Is Nothing I can say to u as you are so full of Bitterness and Hatred That Your Rage Is only Ignited further by any other opinion But Your own U r consumed by hateful revenge That Is apparent in your messages
 
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BIGBOYDAVE: To Try Answer Your Question bradleeM
One It was not only America that was Attacked tHat Day The Buildings I grant It Were In NY city But They Were The World Trade Center They Were Headquarters for Hundreds of companies World Wide And Many Citizens from those countries Died That Day too. Yes It Was Mainly an Attack On America And If America continues in this track It will Bring many more attacks upon this country and innocent people. .
In reality I do not Know what I would Have Done As Leader of The Country But One Thing I do Know I would not declare verbal warefare on my Friends and in Essance Blackmail the world community with threats That If They Did not Fight Alongside The Usa in its War on Terriorism that they would be concider the Enemy also Go Back and Reread The Presidents Message to the joint Congress And sennate Its clearly spelt out there
Darn It This is The Most Powerfull Country With the Best Inteligance Services In The World Surley there is something more they can do
How come they lost contact with all those under survailance weeks before?
How come All Those Airports with there security systems failed that day?
How come so many aircraft flew for hundreds of miles across Many or near to many Millitary Bases and there was no response till too late?
How Come The Biggest Millitary And Intelagance Gathering Complex In The World Had No Defences?
How Come That Plane Just Happened To Hit The Portion of that complex that was Mostly Empty due to renovations?
I have been In the Airforce and at the end of the runaway on every Airbase sits a hanger with Two of the latest fighters ready to go and be airborn in two Minutes Crews on standby in adjacent Rooms 24 hrs a day.
Yet That Day No Response. Till much later after the dammage had been done
Those are the Issues I would be looking into Too many things coincidently went wrong in the days leading up to and on the Day of Sept 11. No one of any importances has lost there job over it yet . WHY?
 

jay_too

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pokjbv

as one techie capable of building (make that designing) wmd's to another weaponeer. yeah, i know it is a typo...but i do have to point out, they have not discovered cesium 37. when they do, you should rush to the patent office to register your novel use for a novel isotope.

cesium-137 is not used in smoke detectors because its radiations are not as effective in producing nearby ionizations. pokjbv: if you want to know the isotope, email me. because the sources in each detector are infintestimal, the clean-up of say a couple of hundred sources would be easy. ..no more difficult than a spill of low level radioactive waste. the latter task is routinely handled by city and state first responders. the major damage would come from the chemical explosive.

*I saw those planes over my house in New York, I do not need the French, the UN or you to tell me we are at war and all holds are legal.*

ya know there is an inconsistency here...because later you would kill baby adolph to prevent mass murder and thereby, become super hero of the century. [i have to admit i can believe two different viewpoints at the same time.] i think just war means that there is compelling evidence of immediate danger, and that one must try to minimize the suffering to civilian populations. so all holds are NOT legal.

in a couple of years when the lpsg has a gathering in nyc, you better bet that i am gonna be looking for you and bradleeM to have a beer or coke or whatever...ok?

jay
 
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cypher13: Karl Marx observed, correctly, that a capitalist system functions best in a time of war. You can define a nation by its borders and culture, but terrorism is, at best, nebulous. By declaring a war on terrorism - on the surface a very good thing - the administration effectively puts the United States into a permanent war economy. What decent, rational person justifies a war on the basis that it will be good for the bottom line?

Fighting against a defined opponent is tough enough; fighting against an undefinable opponent is like catching moonbeams in a Mason jar. If we go ahead with this - and I fear we will - I doubt I will live to see the end of it; I am almost 48 years old. I genuinely fear for the people of college age who will be called upon to fight this war. It is easy to say you're prepared and you can handle it until that moment actually comes.

As long as it remains an abstract video game, everything will be fine; when it gets into the streets of Baghdad and the body bags start coming home, it will suddenly be unpopular. The Americans will mercilessly squash the antiwar movement. It will get very ugly, very quickly, and the war will go on.

We had our own version of the Spanish American War in Desert Storm - and we had a chance to deal with Saddam Hussein then. As with the Spanish American War, Desert Storm solved nothing; maybe this is a case of the son atoning for the sins of the father - though that is idle speculation on my part.

A
 
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pokjbv: Jay: I said it was an interesting question Re Hitler. I am not sure I could do it, nor that history should be changed anyway, only used it as an example of how we know nothing of how our actions will effect the future! Cesium 137 whatever, it was used to make a point. I know it would take a lot of smoke detectors to gather the required materials, I am just saying that you cannot tell by looking at people who the good guys are. If we meet in New York the beer is my treat!

BigBoyDave, I am angry but not hopeless, I do hope as I said above that a strong man will rise and take control of the sorry state of affairs in the Middle East. I just ain't willing to bet my family on it. And, this situation shows all the earmarks of getting out of control leading to disasters we cannot comprehend. I don't want to live in a bunker in Idaho waiting for Armageddon like some people. But, we are at war, not maybe going to war. We have to deal with the situation now or be engulfed like the WTC was.

I do not like or trust Washington nor the Bush family. I think the day the supreme court appointed the man to office they sealed our fate. I KNEW we were going to be at war as soon as Gore conceded to the GOP. I KNEW we would have higher oil prices and we would be in deficit spending again. I would not at all be surprised to hear proof that the USA at top levels allowed the WTC to happen in order to have an excuse to start the war. I am not saying I think they did this, only that it would not surprise me at all. We still have to deal with the fact that there is a large body of people out there that hate us irrationally. Irrational means that we cannot EVER do anything to change their minds. They have said over and over they are only interested in killing us. It is not revenge that motivates me, it is survival.
 
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BIGBOYDAVE: I guess we have exausted this one for now and are all waiting to see what happens next.
But am curious to know what most thought of the Powell speech to the Un and the world reactions to his speech
Also pokjbv so glad to here all is not hopeless Lets hope the world leaders think the same way
 
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ORCABOMBER: Maybe this wouldn't happen if weapons information wasn't so freely available hmmmm??

Who invented most of that shit anyway?

On another note, I just hope they're not playing http://generals.ea.com/ when the war starts up! :D
 
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Finedessert: It's quite obvious that Mr. Bush is going to have his war with Iraq, all in the name of protecting the United States from Saddam Hussein, and his Weapons of Mass Destruction

Given the fact that we have a military force assembled at Iraq's doorstep, and at the ready to carry out the wishes of GWB.

I'm wondering what happens if by chance we would get lucky and one of our Smart Bombs would hit a Building that Saddam and his (just as evil son) along with all the top military brass happened to be in. Would that be it? Would GWB call off the rest of the war?

What do you think?

Grandpa
 
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7x6andchg: Grandpa-

That's an interesting question. I think the war would be over - but I also think we'd be in Iraq for quite a while afterwards....

Once we have it, I don't see us giving it up soon.

By the way - "the Terror Alert is now Yellow. You may throw away your duct tape and eat the food you have been saving. Thank you."
 
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Finedessert: Subject: Our Kids

The average age of an American Infantry Soldier is 19 years. He is a short haired, tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances is considered by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the ears, not old enough to buy a beer, but old enough to die for his country.

He never really cared much for work and he would rather wax his own car than wash his father's; but he has never collected unemployment either.

He's a recent High School graduate; he was probably an average student, pursued some form of sport activities, drives a ten year old jalopy, and has a steady girlfriend that either broke up with him when he left, or swears
to be waiting when he returns from half a world away.

He listens to rock and roll or hip hop or rap or jazz or swing and 155 mm Howitzers.  He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now than when he was at home because he is
working or fighting from before dawn to well after dusk.

He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him, but he can field strip a rifle in 30 seconds and reassemble it in less - in the dark.

He can recite to you the nomenclature of a machine gun or grenade launcher and use either one effectively if he must.

He digs foxholes and latrines and can apply first aid like a professional. He can march until he is told to stop or stop until he is told to march.

He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation, but he is not without spirit or individual dignity. He is self-sufficient. He has two sets of fatigues: he washes one and wears the other. He keeps his canteens full and his feet dry.

He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never to clean his rifle. He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes, and fix his own hurts.

If you're thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food. He'll even split his ammunition with you in the midst of battle when you run low.

He has learned to use his hands like weapons and weapons like they were hishands.

He can save your life - or take it, because that is his job.

He will often do twice the work of a civilian, draw half the pay and still find ironic humor in it all.

He has seen more suffering and death then he should have in his short lifetime.

He has stood atop mountains of dead bodies, and helped to create them.

He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in combat and he is unashamed.

He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body while at rigid attention, while tempering the burning desire to 'square-away'
those around him who haven't bothered to stand, remove their hat, or even stop talking.

In an odd twist, day in and day out, far from home, he defends their right to be disrespectful.

Just as did his Father, Grandfather, and Greatgrandfather, he is paying the price for our freedom.

Beardless or not, he is not a boy. He is the American Fighting Man that has kept this country free for over 200 years.

He has asked nothing in return, except our friendship and understanding. Remember him, always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood.

This could also be said about the Marines, Navy, and Air Force soldiers, they too have made the sacrifice.

Honor them all.

Grandpa
 
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BIGBOYDAVE: Thanks Guys for placing this information here .
BUt Think on this in the next Days as young Men and Women All over the world begin this new and senseless war . The Same can be said for all Millitary Personel No matter what Side of The coming Battles they are on. It is great to be patrotic to ones own country. But in War each soldier In each Country feels the Same even as they are dying and Killing for There Leaders. The Pain to come is Not Just Limited to Americans. It will be felt on All sides Enemy and Foe.
One of the main reasons we are now once again going to see many innocent young People suffer and Die is because of the beliefs of a few and the negative influances of those few on all sides of sensless issues and stoubourn pride. My Heart is Heavy and filled with sadness that we on this Small Planet are once again going to see so much suffering, destruction and Death, Most of us will view it from A Distance in the comfort of our homes many will cheer as they see the Bombs drop and the innocent Die. I will remain Here and Cry :'(
 

Nrets

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Iraq Crisis? or a crisis in ethics?

as a member of america's mushroom majority (kept in the dark and fed s***), i do know that there is no clear or compelling reason in terms of threat to the u.s. to go into a war with iraq. we have been promised convincing evidence in the past.....but bush-cheney have failed to deliver. will they in the future? i doubt it.

i may think that saddam should be replaced and the world would be a better place without him; but this is not sufficient justification to go to war.

i happen to believe that a war with iraq will bring together radical, fundamentalist islam with a secular nation that in the past has been fearful of islamic fundamentalists and ignite a war throughout the mideast. so what is likely to happen under this scenario? down go the governments of yemen, saudi arabia, jordan, the gulf states, egypt, perhaps syria, and even turkey.

ethics? well, there is no moral justification for war against iraq (on this, i agree with the pope) and the inhumanity of the war on the iraqi people....brutalized by the regime and by the u.n. sanctions. they are barely getting by now....and the long term environmental damage to an important agricultural region, the use of depleted uranium ordinance in the fertile crescent will lead to the contamination of surface and ground waters. and yes, uranium is very mobile in environmental waters...so in the fertile crescent, the result is contaminated water and soils used for food production. this is a matter of environmental ethics and our responsibility to the future generations.

:-/ :'( :'(

sorry, this is so long....but the anti-war genes are showing.

jay


Remember Iraq?

Neither do I.