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Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by kalipygian, Apr 6, 2007.
Makes our difficulties seem relatively trivial.
While you should, you won't likely get much response here because insane as it is some people are unwilling to denounce Iraqi culture, the very culure that would put them to death given half a chance, because they are essentially brothers against Bush.
What you're missing Shelby is that the people carrying out these killings are doing so as part of (a) Shia death squads that didn't exist prior to the US invasion (because the Shia were the oppressed and prosecuted majority under Hussein); or (b) in their official capacity of Iraqi police (would those be the same police trained by the US military?).
It's not Iraqi culture, nor is it Islamic culture, it's extremist culture. Do you really believe that no such extremists exist in the United States or elsewhere?
Do you believe that given the opportunity and breakdown in law and order that exists in Iraq, the same atrocities wouldn't occur elsewhere?
Let me break down the situation for you:
A) Prior to the US invasion, the Sunni minority held the majority of power in Iraq (which was, in reality, a secular nation, with many Christians also holding high positions in Saddams regime);
B) Following the US invasion and deposition of Saddam Hussein, the Shia, a group formerly subjogated and oppressed under Hussein, gained the majority of power, and with the approval of the occupying power (that would be us just to be clear), incorporated Islamic law (specifically Shia Islamic law) into the Iraqi constution.
C) Following this, Muqtada al Sadr, a Shia, gained more power than he ever had under Husseins regime.
D) Shia extremists, with links to al Sadr, began operating in Iraq, which they had never had the ability nor opportunity to do under the rule of Saddam Hussein.
E) Along with the enforcement of extremest religious doctrines, they also carry out revenge killings for the years of mistreatment under Saddam.
This is not an Iraq cultural thing, it happens in many places. The Iraqi people as a whole are not responsible for it any more than you or I are rsponsible for the acts or views of Fred Phelps and his ilk (who, given the opportunity, would prefer to see exactly the same treatment for Americas GLBT populace, along with any who defend them).
I know from your prior posts that you're pleny smart enough to know this.
Actually, it is Islamic culture. Gays are killed or executed throughout the moslem world. At best they're persecuted. Per the Koran.
So tell me, how persecuted are gays in say . . . Detroit, which has a huge Muslim population?
Gays are also persecuted under Christianity, per the Bible. You did know that right? Here:
'If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:13
In fact, if many of this nations Christian leaders are to be believed, gays are responsible for most of the atrocities that occur in the US (including 9/11, Katrina, etc.).
Once again, it is extremist, fundamentalist culture, not Islamic culture, not Iraqi culture, nothing more than extremism and fundamentalism.
In this country until a few years ago, you could be imprisoned for engaging in homosexual acts. Many people are still very upset that sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional.
In many places (say Nazi Germany, a predominantly Christian culture, like it or not), homosexuals were exterminated in massive numbers.
It's not "Islamic" culture any more than it's "Christian" culture. It's extremist, fundamentalist, bigoted culture.
I invoke Godwin's Law. Bye.
LMAO . . . sorry, Godwin's law only applies when comparing the opposite side of an argument to Nazi Germany, not when using said Nazi Germany as an example of another place where the subject of the argument occurred. Perhaps this will help you: "However, Godwin's Law can itself also be abused, as a distraction or diversion, to fallaciously miscast an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparison the argument made were actually appropriate." Now, if I had said something along the lines of "You and anyone who thinks like you are a bunch of Nazis" you would have a valid case for pointing to me and invoking Godwin's Law. However, since the topic of discussion is the persecution and killing of homosexuals, to compare two places and philosophies under which this occurred is entirely appropriate.
Good job of ignoring the substance of the argument though, it thoroughly proves that you have no ability to present a legitimate counter-argument.
You are simply using "Godwin's Law" accusations as a pretext to avoid having to present any real counter-point, knowing that to do so is futile, since you can not present anything to contradict what I pointed out above.
What you have done is prove that you were attempting not to present any point, but to present your own anti-Islamic bigotry.
Bye-bye, and enjoy your blissful ignorance.
Most Islamic societies through most of their history have been more accepting than Christian ones. There is a very large body of gay romantic poetry in classical Arabic and Persian literature, and from Mughul India. The 'Thousand and one nights' for example, had some gay parts that were omitted when it was translated to English.
Not likely that the fundamentalists who are doing the killings have copies of the works of Rumi,or of 'The Ring of the Dove', 'the Perfumed Garden',or 'the Rose Garden'.
But that can't possibly be, I was told all them there moslems was eeeeeevul.