Irish unification

ttmax

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It's so ironic that brexit hangs so much on arguments over the Irish border, when demographics will cause that dividing line to disappear within a very short time.

One might even suggest that the brexit referendum, throwing up in its result such a major problem, should have been followed by a referendum in NI on whether the population wished to remain within the present UK or to follow the logical path of reunification with their southern neighbours.

Of those who voted, 55.8% expressed a desire to remain in the EC, yet the hard right DUP extremists are the tail wagging the dog, not only in their own back yard, but also in determining UK policy. So, in one very significant aspect of life in NI, remaining in the EC through joining with the Republic of Ireland, satisfies democratic principles.

One major argument against unification used in days gone by was the power of the RC church hierarchy. No longer - those days are gone, thanks to the revelations about the abusive excesses of priests, cardinals and even nuns. Nowadays, the republic looks like the progressive country, the north as a fundamentalist quasi-theocracy.

With such a large percentage of the province favouring unification, surely fairness demands that the appetite for this should be tested by referendum. To oppose the right of the people to be consulted is anti-democratic. But then, neither May nor Foster are renowned for their promulgation of democratic principles.
 

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Northern Ireland is complicated.

A hard border may well trigger a Border Poll, but we're not going to get a hard border. Will Brexit trigger a Border Poll, even without a hard border? Probably not. If it does there will be a vote for the status quo.

The new development in NI is people from RC and Nationalist community who are backing the UK. A few - only a few, but some - are even voting DUP.
 
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ttmax

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"If it does there will be a vote for the status quo."
Ha ha. In a world full of uncertainties, Jason still thinks that his definitive opinions/predictions are as sound as night following day!
Once UK has shrunk to just England & Wales, Jason will still be as resolute as the Monty Python limbless knight.
 

chrisrobin

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It's so ironic that brexit hangs so much on arguments over the Irish border, when demographics will cause that dividing line to disappear within a very short time.

One might even suggest that the brexit referendum, throwing up in its result such a major problem, should have been followed by a referendum in NI on whether the population wished to remain within the present UK or to follow the logical path of reunification with their southern neighbours.

Of those who voted, 55.8% expressed a desire to remain in the EC, yet the hard right DUP extremists are the tail wagging the dog, not only in their own back yard, but also in determining UK policy. So, in one very significant aspect of life in NI, remaining in the EC through joining with the Republic of Ireland, satisfies democratic principles.

One major argument against unification used in days gone by was the power of the RC church hierarchy. No longer - those days are gone, thanks to the revelations about the abusive excesses of priests, cardinals and even nuns. Nowadays, the republic looks like the progressive country, the north as a fundamentalist quasi-theocracy.

With such a large percentage of the province favouring unification, surely fairness demands that the appetite for this should be tested by referendum. To oppose the right of the people to be consulted is anti-democratic. But then, neither May nor Foster are renowned for their promulgation of democratic principles.
The reunification of the Island of Ireland is one of the hidden objectives from the Catholic European Commissioners negotiating Brexit, and Eire will do all it can to do this. The EU claiming the technology for a frictionless border doesnt exist is their way of saying NO.Never.
Northern Ireland, like Scotland are both parts of the UK and while each may one day wish to depart currently its not an option. Leaving Northern Ireland to the Southern Irish will mean betraying the C of E population to the mercies of the bombers and religious bigots. Scotland also has a chequered history with religion and apart from its three main exports, Whiskey Porridge and deep fried Mars Bars fails to even look at the legal logistics of remaining in the EU when the UK departs, and even thinks it will get special status to join when the UK leaves - application time, thought time, about 5 years - pie in the sky rhetoric.
Currently the Southern Irish are quoted as saying they don't want a hard border, currently the arrangement works well for them and they can come and go and pick up goods where the price is best. What they fail to admit, or their leaders fail to tell them is in the event of a no deal happening the Economy of Eire will require massive loans and bail outs from the EU - or it will go bankrupt, its financial institutions will be reduced to the level of Italy and Greece.
The EU and its commissioners are playing a very dangerous game, particularly when the All for One and One for All claims for the EU are coming unstuck. France in a row with Italy, Italians in conflict with Brussels, Brussels in a spat with Poland and Hungary. This all for one ethos really well portrayed when the EU wanted to put the new Russian Gas Pipe Line under the same restraints and conditions as the rest of the industry, but Germany objected because it didn't want to place any constraints on Russian Gas which is needed for Germany. So, 26 cave in for one.
But worst is the "it doesnt really affect me" attitude of much of the EU when it comes to controlling its borders. There isn't one cohesive plan or body for controlling access to the EU. When it comes to immigrants in boats each country deals with it in its own way - there isn't any unified facility for registration, sharing the load , restricting access to EU waters or returning illegal migrants, its a shambles.
The EU commission though sits in absolute power, as long as the answers can be seen at the bottom of a glass then all is well with the world - which to many seems to be that tiny little bit of the world called the European Commission.
But b ack to the original discussion, its not at all logical for the reunification of Ireland any more than it is natural for the departure of Scotland or Wales from the UK.
It is only logical if it fulfils some deep political aims of the politicians which have little to do with the welfare of the inhabitants.
 
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Do the Northern Irish have the same sense of ethnic identity that the Irish in the Republic of Ireland have? Or do the Northern Irish feel inclined toward UK/Great Britain ethnically and culturally?

As an American who has never been to either, and has ties to neither, when I think of Ireland, I'm likely to imagine the Republic--I think. Shamrock shakes, St. Patrick's Day, kissing the Blarney Stone, Guinness beer, leprechauns, etc.
 

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"The reunification of the Island of Ireland is one of the hidden objectives from the Catholic European Commissioners negotiating Brexit, and Eire will do all it can to do this."
I haven't heard such anti-Catholic rhetoric for decades. Wow!
(BTW, the catholic church in Ireland is now a busted flush and the republic is much more socially progressive than NI, so in reality there is nothing for the protestant population to fear in terms of religion, bigotry-shaming aside.)

"Northern Ireland, like Scotland are both parts of the UK and while each may one day wish to depart currently its not an option."
Dead wrong. Support for Scottish independence has remained as strong as ever since the first Indyref. The Scottish government has a mandate to hold a second referendum at the appropriate time and there is massive work and fund raising going on in the YES movement and within the SNP in preparation for the next referendum, which will happen with or without May's blessing.

"Leaving Northern Ireland to the Southern Irish will mean betraying the C of E population to the mercies of the bombers and religious bigots." That sentence is so rich in irony. Job done, so why would the republicans ruin the fruits of success? Any threat to peace would come from the self-perceived losers, the rabid bigots in DUP/UVF.

"Scotland also has a chequered history with religion" - the worst old firm football-related examples of which the Scottish government has been attempting to tackle, although the consensus on that shameful issue has been betrayed by recent u-turn and opposition from the unionist parties. Why, one wonders. Playing politics with peace on the streets is a truly cynical and dangerous notion. It is to be hoped that, once Irish reunification and Scottish independence have been achieved, the traditional toxic influence of the orange lodges/DUP-UVF/BNP/UKIP axis of evil will dissipate and eventually disappear as a threat to civil society in Scotland.

"apart from its three main exports, Whiskey Porridge and deep fried Mars Bars"
Truly ignorant, on so many levels

"legal logistics of remaining in the EU when the UK departs, and even thinks it will get special status to join when the UK leaves - application time, thought time, about 5 years - pie in the sky rhetoric."
The EC view is that it would welcome Scotland as a member (perhaps the Japanese car manufacturers can be tempted northwards in that eventuality), but if independence is to mean anything, it must be that all major issues are up for debate. There may be a difference between the wish list or policies of the SNP pre-independence and what will happen in the post-independence landscape. For example, the SNP policy is to remain within NATO, but it is not inconceivable that Scots will vote for neutrality.

But b ack to the original discussion, its not at all logical for the reunification of Ireland any more than it is natural for the departure of Scotland or Wales from the UK.

The return to status of independent, self-governing and DEMOCRATIC nations, finally freed from the influence of hostile, domineering and aggressive neighbours stuck in an inglorious past, is entirely logical and virtuous.
It is ludicrous to observe in the current brexit debate, that some reactionary and not very aware English tory MP's have suggested that Ireland may wish to bring itself under Westminster's control again!!!! During Indyref 1, there was even the threat from reactionary tory quarters that the RAF may be sent to bomb Scottish targets. What can one do with such "partners" but dissolve the abusive shotgun marriage.

"It is only logical if it fulfils some deep political aims of the politicians which have little to do with the welfare of the inhabitants."
Unlike in England, Holyrood does a good job at representing the people of Scotland, which is why the SNP has formed the Scottish government since 2007, with strong majority and even outright majority - a feat which English parties can only dream of.

But, in any case....if you believe in democracy, you will be totally relaxed about the populations of Scotland, Wales and NI determining their own future. That's the bottom line.
 

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Do the Northern Irish have the same sense of ethnic identity that the Irish in the Republic of Ireland have? Or do the Northern Irish feel inclined toward UK/Great Britain ethnically and culturally?

As an American who has never been to either, and has ties to neither, when I think of Ireland, I'm likely to imagine the Republic--I think. Shamrock shakes, St. Patrick's Day, kissing the Blarney Stone, Guinness beer, leprechauns, etc.

If you do a search for "plantation Scots", you will find enlightenment (hmm, irony)
Think Afrikaaners, Israeli settlers or deep south baptist fundamentalists for a comparison to the more reactionary elements of the population, as present within DUP and the orange lodges - people who think it is ok to dress up in silly uniforms, form marching bands and parade through catholic areas, hurling triumphalist insults about battles from 1690 (true!).
Sectarian abuses and denial of civil rights were part of everyday life for native Irish catholics in their own land, until not too long ago. The abuses of the Irish catholic population over many centuries at the hands of England and later the plantation Scots, is truly horrific.
 

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That is merely opinion.
Only a referendum can ascertain the true position.
You're surely not against consulting the people?

NI politics have returned a majority for parties which support the Union on every single election since 1922: UK elections, NI elections, local elections, EU elections. I think the position is beyond doubt. If there were any reason to think it were close there could be a Boundary Poll. There isn't, and no one holds a referendum for no reason at all.

The new development (last five years or so) is that people in the Roman Catholic community are in some cases supporting the Union.
 
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Do the Northern Irish have the same sense of ethnic identity that the Irish in the Republic of Ireland have? Or do the Northern Irish feel inclined toward UK/Great Britain ethnically and culturally?

As an American who has never been to either, and has ties to neither, when I think of Ireland, I'm likely to imagine the Republic--I think. Shamrock shakes, St. Patrick's Day, kissing the Blarney Stone, Guinness beer, leprechauns, etc.

There are two identities in the island of Ireland, and have been for four hundred years. Partition in 1922 was an attempt to resolve this. It left Protestant communities in the south, some of which were badly treated. It also created NI where a majority is Protestant, but with a substantial Catholic minority.

In NI the Protestant community are the most British community of any in the UK. The Catholic community in the post-Good-Friday NI increasingly see their identity as NI, neither Republic nor UK.

Leprechauns are a very slim basis for a national identity. An identity has been created in the Republic. NI has a different identity to the Republic.
 

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I would argue to delete the threat... There are people on this board who deny the reality that Brexit contains the possibility on a reunification of Ireland.


.... oh just noticed Jason already posted ;)
 

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It also created NI where a majority is Protestant, but with a substantial Catholic minority.
without the English invasion and occupation, with all the punishments against the Catholics, there wouldn't be any Protestant majority.

I think this should be granted, if we talk about political majorities.
In NI the Protestant community are the most British community of any in the UK.
in Germany it's called Wagenburgmentalität - which means, that you develop a certain mentality if surrounded by enemies.
Leprechauns are a very slim basis for a national identity. An identity has been created in the Republic. NI has a different identity to the Republic.
I guess in this case we should ask the people of Northern Ireland... I would bet we get a spilt.
 

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The French and the Germans have made peace with each other. There is a history of French German wars over time. I don't read stories of parts of Germany or parts of France wanting to split off. Spain is having a time of it with areas wanting independence from Spain. But that is it except for the Balkan countries which have had national identity and border issues in recent times.

Why is it that the British Isles can't find a way to be at peace with each other as part of one nation? I would think that if the British Isles were unified, the UK would have even more clout in Europe.

I understand the history of England invading Ireland. I also understand that Northern Ireland has a significant number of people whose ancestry comes from Scotland. In the US they are referred to as Scots-Irish. In the UK I understand the term Ulster Scots is used.

My last name comes from Northern Ireland. A cousin did the ancestry.com saliva test and discovered the line all the way back to Northern Ireland.

So I do have an interest in Northern Ireland. Having said that most of my ancestors that some one in my family has traced have been in England.

I digress there for a moment.

Perhaps a confederation where the military,foreign affairs and some finance issues are in the hands of a government in Westminster, but each nation would be totally in charge of everything else.

As small as two islands are in seems unnecessary to have five independent nations counting both Irelands.

The reason the US is so powerful is that there are 50 states that form the union. A lot of laws governing day to day living are left to the states. Had the US split into two nations during the US Civil War neither would have the power that the US has today.


What is it that keeps the people in the UK to be so divided to want four or five different independent nations in the British Isles when the rest of Northern Europe - Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France and the low countries seem to be content with present boundaries and independent nations?
 

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Do the Northern Irish have the same sense of ethnic identity that the Irish in the Republic of Ireland have? Or do the Northern Irish feel inclined toward UK/Great Britain ethnically and culturally?

As an American who has never been to either, and has ties to neither, when I think of Ireland, I'm likely to imagine the Republic--I think. Shamrock shakes, St. Patrick's Day, kissing the Blarney Stone, Guinness beer, leprechauns, etc.
You have summed up exactly the inhabitants of Eire - that's the southern part of Ireland - ion the main .
 

chrisrobin

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The French and the Germans have made peace with each other. There is a history of French German wars over time. I don't read stories of parts of Germany or parts of France wanting to split off. Spain is having a time of it with areas wanting independence from Spain. But that is it except for the Balkan countries which have had national identity and border issues in recent times.

Why is it that the British Isles can't find a way to be at peace with each other as part of one nation? I would think that if the British Isles were unified, the UK would have even more clout in Europe.

I understand the history of England invading Ireland. I also understand that Northern Ireland has a significant number of people whose ancestry comes from Scotland. In the US they are referred to as Scots-Irish. In the UK I understand the term Ulster Scots is used.

My last name comes from Northern Ireland. A cousin did the ancestry.com saliva test and discovered the line all the way back to Northern Ireland.

So I do have an interest in Northern Ireland. Having said that most of my ancestors that some one in my family has traced have been in England.

I digress there for a moment.

Perhaps a confederation where the military,foreign affairs and some finance issues are in the hands of a government in Westminster, but each nation would be totally in charge of everything else.

As small as two islands are in seems unnecessary to have five independent nations counting both Irelands.

The reason the US is so powerful is that there are 50 states that form the union. A lot of laws governing day to day living are left to the states. Had the US split into two nations during the US Civil War neither would have the power that the US has today.


What is it that keeps the people in the UK to be so divided to want four or five different independent nations in the British Isles when the rest of Northern Europe - Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France and the low countries seem to be content with present boundaries and independent nations?
What is it that keeps the people in the UK to be so divided to want four or five different independent nations in the British Isles when the rest of Northern Europe - Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France and the low countries seem to be content with present boundaries and independent nations?
Lok at Europe. The French in arms against the Italians, The Poles and Hungarians at war against the EU elite trying to have a say in how they run their country, Italy on the edge of insolvency about to come with a begging bowl to German and the Germans will resist on the grounds the Italians are lazy. Greece struggling to stay afloat, France with its Yellow Vets and back to German where its also on the verge of meltdown. Then add the idea that all the countries in the EU act with one voice and ask why Germany has signed a pact with France - a country always ready to suck up to stronger powers - . As for one rule everywhere there are borders between countries, Austria, the Balkans have their own ideas about free movement and immigrants and all the time Tusk and Junker sit in steely silence seeking consolation from a bottle!
As a history lesson the EU began as a Common Market group, a good idea, free trade and free movement. When it began, as with most European schemes it had lofty ideals and drew up a list of criteria that had to be followed., Lots of pomp, lots of ceremony and the deal was signed, alas, not even all the founding countries met the criteria, Greece for exap0mple later was allowed to come in on the promise that things would be improve. Then the introduction of the Euro. A cup of coffee should in effect cost the same the group over, but because of different economies it didn't. And this has sewn the seeds for why the Euro zone will eventually break up.
With bigger dreams on the horizon the leaders, even the lovely Christine Lagarde, no one wanted to look to closely at what was happening when the bigger prize was a United States of Europe. As more and more impoverished countries joined in the make this mighty empire, propped up and bribed by Brussels the bigger prize dimmed their eyes to the reality of what the Euro was doing. First Greece, Italy, then Spain and Portugal all struggled, Eire had a load and still the cash was flowing out of the coffers, grand plans for a European Army etc and all the while the population of Europe was becoming more sceptical and, more to the point, questioning. Small counties began to question the might of the German immigrant policy, invent their own quota's, refuse the numbers imposed on them by Brussels and all the time the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.
Because underneath all this pomp and show and fine words nothing was ever going to work unless the whole of the EU came under the same rules, took on the same fiscal responsibilities, had the same welfare regulations - and there is the rub.
If you can imagine a Europe where all retirement ages, all the pension payments, all working hours regulated, holidays and more importantly all taxes are fixed by a non elected group in Brussels then that is the ultimate dream.
And so, from being hand fed fodder to make us think all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds suddenly a new wave of thinking, yes thinking is appearing whereby the nanny state is thought not to always know best.
The UK, four countries bound together over many years saw this as not being in its national interest. The only ones who want it to continue are those already on the gravy train or about to climb aboard.
The last decade has shown that the EU is to large, to diverse to govern itself and so will eventually implode, the UK, or at least the majority of those interested enough to vote though this was the time to get out showing how much our national leaders were out of touch with what was happening on the ground, and oddly, those same leaders still don't understand ground level feelings.
To miss quote Mister Tusk, I hope he finds his own place in hell.
 

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"The reunification of the Island of Ireland is one of the hidden objectives from the Catholic European Commissioners negotiating Brexit, and Eire will do all it can to do this."
I haven't heard such anti-Catholic rhetoric for decades. Wow!
(BTW, the catholic church in Ireland is now a busted flush and the republic is much more socially progressive than NI, so in reality there is nothing for the protestant population to fear in terms of religion, bigotry-shaming aside.)

"Northern Ireland, like Scotland are both parts of the UK and while each may one day wish to depart currently its not an option."
Dead wrong. Support for Scottish independence has remained as strong as ever since the first Indyref. The Scottish government has a mandate to hold a second referendum at the appropriate time and there is massive work and fund raising going on in the YES movement and within the SNP in preparation for the next referendum, which will happen with or without May's blessing.

"Leaving Northern Ireland to the Southern Irish will mean betraying the C of E population to the mercies of the bombers and religious bigots." That sentence is so rich in irony. Job done, so why would the republicans ruin the fruits of success? Any threat to peace would come from the self-perceived losers, the rabid bigots in DUP/UVF.

"Scotland also has a chequered history with religion" - the worst old firm football-related examples of which the Scottish government has been attempting to tackle, although the consensus on that shameful issue has been betrayed by recent u-turn and opposition from the unionist parties. Why, one wonders. Playing politics with peace on the streets is a truly cynical and dangerous notion. It is to be hoped that, once Irish reunification and Scottish independence have been achieved, the traditional toxic influence of the orange lodges/DUP-UVF/BNP/UKIP axis of evil will dissipate and eventually disappear as a threat to civil society in Scotland.

"apart from its three main exports, Whiskey Porridge and deep fried Mars Bars"
Truly ignorant, on so many levels

"legal logistics of remaining in the EU when the UK departs, and even thinks it will get special status to join when the UK leaves - application time, thought time, about 5 years - pie in the sky rhetoric."
The EC view is that it would welcome Scotland as a member (perhaps the Japanese car manufacturers can be tempted northwards in that eventuality), but if independence is to mean anything, it must be that all major issues are up for debate. There may be a difference between the wish list or policies of the SNP pre-independence and what will happen in the post-independence landscape. For example, the SNP policy is to remain within NATO, but it is not inconceivable that Scots will vote for neutrality.

But b ack to the original discussion, its not at all logical for the reunification of Ireland any more than it is natural for the departure of Scotland or Wales from the UK.

The return to status of independent, self-governing and DEMOCRATIC nations, finally freed from the influence of hostile, domineering and aggressive neighbours stuck in an inglorious past, is entirely logical and virtuous.
It is ludicrous to observe in the current brexit debate, that some reactionary and not very aware English tory MP's have suggested that Ireland may wish to bring itself under Westminster's control again!!!! During Indyref 1, there was even the threat from reactionary tory quarters that the RAF may be sent to bomb Scottish targets. What can one do with such "partners" but dissolve the abusive shotgun marriage.

"It is only logical if it fulfils some deep political aims of the politicians which have little to do with the welfare of the inhabitants."
Unlike in England, Holyrood does a good job at representing the people of Scotland, which is why the SNP has formed the Scottish government since 2007, with strong majority and even outright majority - a feat which English parties can only dream of.

But, in any case....if you believe in democracy, you will be totally relaxed about the populations of Scotland, Wales and NI determining their own future. That's the bottom line.
Just you last line please.The referendum was a vote to decide whether the UK, that is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should leave the EU. The majority of those who voted voted to leave. This was not a vote area by area, street my street vote count to decide which bits left and which remained, it was the WHOLE UK.
If you believe in democracy then you should believe in this vote.
If at some later timer a democratic decision is taken whereby various parts of the UK whish to go for independence then that is, and was if you remember the last failed attempt for independence in Scotland, the way things will go. Till then democracy has it that currently there are 4 countries in the UK.
As a MacLeod myself I can understand your frustrations but being a realist I put things into current day context and don't dwell on the past otherwise I would be at war right now with the raping and pillaging Vikings!
Regardless of the state of the sexual antics of embers of the church there is still a very strong Catholic bond in the country and this will be played on by the powers in Brussels, remember Politics and Religion have gone hand in hand for years, and to suggest there isn't a link is to bury your head in the sand
Sorry about the quips on deep fried mars bars, I could have mentioned toasting a mouse!
 
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