Is A War With China Inevitable?

wallyj84

Superior Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Posts
7,023
Media
0
Likes
3,954
Points
333
Location
United States
I feel like people on the right are building themselves up for a war with China. Is anyone else sensing this?

I think with the cultural and political differences between the US and China, the only question is what kind of form this war will take. What do you guys think?
 

swingfun

Legendary Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Posts
960
Media
0
Likes
1,997
Points
273
Location
Oklahoma
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
We are already in a war with China. A trade war. Look inside a wall mart or most any store boxes and boxes of things that are marked made in China. A lot of this stuff was made here at one time but when you have slave labor like they do in China you can sell crap cheap. A shooting war? Unless China has a vast fast transport for troops and materials..we are too far away. It would probably be nuclear and then it wouldn't matter. After Biden takes office look for China to make a move on Taiwan. Then we will see what our response is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: malakos

longstroke7

Mythical Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Posts
11,555
Media
0
Likes
27,775
Points
318
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
China and America need each other economically. Trade wars and micro aggressions aside I highly doubt Xi and the CCP has any interest in mutually assured destruction.
 

DiamondJoe

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Posts
6,578
Media
10
Likes
7,866
Points
133
Age
44
Location
Glastonbury (Somerset, England)
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
I feel like people on the right are building themselves up for a war with China. Is anyone else sensing this?

I think with the cultural and political differences between the US and China, the only question is what kind of form this war will take. What do you guys think?
As with so many of your questions OP, there is an inherent, damaging bias that distorts the subsequent answers.

Bottom line, your country spends half the global total on nice, shiny weapons of mass destruction. Your military's firepower and reach is overwhelming. China's military looks scary on paper in shear numbers but they are no match. China's navy is hemmed in by a ring of US strategic bases and allies. It's nuclear weapons are massively outnumbered by US capabilities.

If anything, the Chinese are scared of you.

The obvious trip wire is, as someone suggested, Taiwan. But this presupposes that invading Taiwan is a) a risk-free push-over and b) that the US wouldn't intervene.

China’s Military Actions Against Taiwan in 2021: What to Expect

What you lot are missing is that, very quietly, China has been building alternate governmental and economic models for the more authoritarian regimes on earth. Previously, the democratic, free-market model was the only one available.

Now the Chinese have demonstrated that you can have control of your people and be wealthy. This is becoming more attractive as the old western democracies struggle with a co-ordinated response to Covid. Shame Trump left TTP.

Why bother being lectured by the US on human rights and reform when the Chinese will sell you what you want, no questions asked?
 

wallyj84

Superior Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Posts
7,023
Media
0
Likes
3,954
Points
333
Location
United States
As with so many of your questions OP, there is an inherent, damaging bias that distorts the subsequent answers.

Bottom line, your country spends half the global total on nice, shiny weapons of mass destruction. Your military's firepower and reach is overwhelming. China's military looks scary on paper in shear numbers but they are no match. China's navy is hemmed in by a ring of US strategic bases and allies. It's nuclear weapons are massively outnumbered by US capabilities.

If anything, the Chinese are scared of you.

The obvious trip wire is, as someone suggested, Taiwan. But this presupposes that invading Taiwan is a) a risk-free push-over and b) that the US wouldn't intervene.

China’s Military Actions Against Taiwan in 2021: What to Expect

What you lot are missing is that, very quietly, China has been building alternate governmental and economic models for the more authoritarian regimes on earth. Previously, the democratic, free-market model was the only one available.

Now the Chinese have demonstrated that you can have control of your people and be wealthy. This is becoming more attractive as the old western democracies struggle with a co-ordinated response to Covid. Shame Trump left TTP.

Why bother being lectured by the US on human rights and reform when the Chinese will sell you what you want, no questions asked?

You guys are obsessed with calling me biased.

Anyway, you're not wrong about anything you wrote. But from what I've noticed from people on the right is that they seem to be pushing a narrative about China that would inevitably lead to war. When you consider that with the real threat China has to US or Western preeminence, it seems to me like war is very likely.
 

wallyj84

Superior Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Posts
7,023
Media
0
Likes
3,954
Points
333
Location
United States
China doesn't have to fight you.

You'll have to start a war. You've not done that on a global stage before, and of course, what are you going to win?

I agree. China doesn't have to fight us, but I feel like there are forces behind the scenes pushing for it now. Or perhaps the national culture is moving towards that.
 

DiamondJoe

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Posts
6,578
Media
10
Likes
7,866
Points
133
Age
44
Location
Glastonbury (Somerset, England)
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
You guys are obsessed with calling me biased.

Anyway, you're not wrong about anything you wrote. But from what I've noticed from people on the right is that they seem to be pushing a narrative about China that would inevitably lead to war. When you consider that with the real threat China has to US or Western preeminence, it seems to me like war is very likely.
Try phrasing questions more neutrally?

If it's one the the US could learn from the imperial experiences of Britain, it is that it's uncomfortable being top dog nation as much as it is a boon. There are always challengers - think the Dutch, Germans, Spanish and, perennially, the French - chasing at your tail and a certain amount of worry.

As I say, the US military has overwhelming superiority and the Chinese know it.

Like with the Russians - a bankrupt kleptocracy with rusting military capabilities - the Chinese will exploit different routes of confrontation and new types of asymmetrical warfare (cyber/business) to prosecute their ends.
 

bar4doug

Loved Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Posts
1,555
Media
0
Likes
625
Points
333
Location
United States
Gender
Male
I feel like people on the right are building themselves up for a war with China. Is anyone else sensing this?

I think with the cultural and political differences between the US and China, the only question is what kind of form this war will take. What do you guys think?

Neither side wants the other one dead. But neither side wants the other side all-powerful and dictating terms. Yin and Yang.

They need customers. We buy their stuff.

We need investors. They buy our debt.
 

john625

Admired Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Posts
431
Media
0
Likes
784
Points
363
Location
NYC (New York, United States)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
the Chinese will exploit different routes of confrontation and new types of asymmetrical warfare (cyber/business) to prosecute their ends.

We do we always assume other countries view the world in terms of win/loss? Is it not possible that China wants improve the prosperity of its people? And perhaps out of national pride, wants to be rightfully recognized as a world power?

Are we not confrontational to China? And we don't have types of asymmetrical warfare?

China has one huge economic advantage they we don't have, or better yet, only now coming to discuss...
 

DiamondJoe

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Posts
6,578
Media
10
Likes
7,866
Points
133
Age
44
Location
Glastonbury (Somerset, England)
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
We do we always assume other countries view the world in terms of win/loss? Is it not possible that China wants improve the prosperity of its people? And perhaps out of national pride, wants to be rightfully recognized as a world power?

Are we not confrontational to China? And we don't have types of asymmetrical warfare?

China has one huge economic advantage they we don't have, or better yet, only now coming to discuss...
Nah.

That's not the way the world works I'm afraid. It is eat or be eaten. Yes there is economic co-dependency between the US/China, as with many states, but China does not play by the international rulebook for a start and seeks to undercut US tech advantages and industrial secrets whenever it can.

And sure, it's great that China can create wealth - but never underestimate the view that the individual does not matter, only stability and harmony engendered by the regime matter.

I agree on the notion of pride, but that is also partly stoked by the Communist Party for reasons of cohesion.
 

john625

Admired Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Posts
431
Media
0
Likes
784
Points
363
Location
NYC (New York, United States)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Nah.

That's not the way the world works I'm afraid. It is eat or be eaten. Yes there is economic co-dependency between the US/China, as with many states, but China does not play by the international rulebook for a start and seeks to undercut US tech advantages and industrial secrets whenever it can.

And sure, it's great that China can create wealth - but never underestimate the view that the individual does not matter, only stability and harmony engendered by the regime matter.

I agree on the notion of pride, but that is also partly stoked by the Communist Party for reasons of cohesion.

The notion that the world is a zero-sum game is not really supported by facts, unless your position is #1 or nothing. I use Germany as one example; of course, there are many others.

Casting China as the world's chief villain is convenient but I am not so certain that while the USA may not play by the "international rulebook" as national policy, at the corporate level it exists. The USA has the largest and most capable intelligence agencies in the world, and that trickles down innumerable ways.

I agree that China uses many approaches for "cohesion".

If maintaining being the world's preeminent economic and military power, our current course will hasten its decline.

Seems to me, 40% of this country want to be poorer and whiter than stronger and multi-cultural.
 

DiamondJoe

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Posts
6,578
Media
10
Likes
7,866
Points
133
Age
44
Location
Glastonbury (Somerset, England)
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
The notion that the world is a zero-sum game is not really supported by facts, unless your position is #1 or nothing. I use Germany as one example; of course, there are many others.

Casting China as the world's chief villain is convenient but I am not so certain that while the USA may not play by the "international rulebook" as national policy, at the corporate level it exists. The USA has the largest and most capable intelligence agencies in the world, and that trickles down innumerable ways.

I agree that China uses many approaches for "cohesion".

If maintaining being the world's preeminent economic and military power, our current course will hasten its decline.

Seems to me, 40% of this country want to be poorer and whiter than stronger and multi-cultural.
I think the view that China is anything other than a malign actor is careless.

Look at the incredible command and control the CCP can muster, look at what they've done to Hong Kong. See the servile relationship that all Chinese banking, business and industry has to the Chinese state. Note how China's economy is not open yet it's in the WTO. Watch the repression of minorities and deviant thought. View the Belt And Road initiative as an attempt to open China's control of Central Asia and of propping up dictatorships along the way. Keep an eye on Chinese loans and purchases in Africa and Asia that seek to control the planet's resources into the 22nd century.

The Chinese are playing a long game. They know they cannot confront the US militarily but they will use any other means to "resume" their rightful place at the centre of the world.

During the Nixon thaw in Sino-US relations in the 70s, Nixon asked Premier Zhou Enlai what he thought of the French Revolution.

"Too early to tell," replied Zhou. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6inchcock

john625

Admired Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Posts
431
Media
0
Likes
784
Points
363
Location
NYC (New York, United States)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
I think the view that China is anything other than a malign actor is careless.

I did not say this. What I am saying is that China is not the sole villain (for want of a better term), but the USA is a not a white knight. Nor am I saying that USA transgressions are at the same level to China's but there are strong parallels:

"See the servile relationship that all Chinese banking, business and industry has to the Chinese state". The USA is servile to banking, business and industry'

"Watch the repression of minorities and deviant thought". What about BLM and the repression of African Americans in this country. Native Americans, Muslim Americans and the LGBTQ community.

The EU, if viewed one nation, provides its citizens with an economic and lifestyle standard of living unmatched, for most Americans and Chinese. International confrontation need not be the path to economic strength.
 

DiamondJoe

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Posts
6,578
Media
10
Likes
7,866
Points
133
Age
44
Location
Glastonbury (Somerset, England)
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
I did not say this. What I am saying is that China is not the sole villain (for want of a better term), but the USA is a not a white knight. Nor am I saying that USA transgressions are at the same level to China's but there are strong parallels:

"See the servile relationship that all Chinese banking, business and industry has to the Chinese state". The USA is servile to banking, business and industry'

"Watch the repression of minorities and deviant thought". What about BLM and the repression of African Americans in this country. Native Americans, Muslim Americans and the LGBTQ community.

The EU, if viewed one nation, provides its citizens with an economic and lifestyle standard of living unmatched, for most Americans and Chinese. International confrontation need not be the path to economic strength.

I'm sorry but this view does not stand up to scrutiny.

Your rose-tinted view of China is sweet but ultimately there is no comparison between how the US conducts business (shitty, I grant you but there is the rule of law) versus how China conducts business where companies are required by law to serve the aims of the State as directed. Hence all the hoo-har over Huawei.

Similarly, there is no comparison between the current state of African Americans (who are undoubtedly a downtrodden minority, oppressed for hundreds of years) but that is not the same to what happens to the Uighurs, what is happening in Hong Kong - or for that matter what the Chinese authorities do to Chinese Muslims, or Chinese LGBTQ+++ ad nauseam. Or check out how the Chinese deal with journalists, religious types and sundry dissenters.

I suggest that if you think China's not so bad, that you try living there for a bit and see how you get on with your quaint, western ideas of free speech, expression and individualism. See how that works for you. Genuinely.

Big Brother is watching: Chinese city with 2.6m cameras is world's most heavily surveilled

The EU is not a single nation but, yes, there is a different kind of social compact between rulers and ruled that is a bit slower, a bit flabbier perhaps but is more caring certainly; that was a post-war reaction to communism tbh. But you miss the central point that the EU was founded (as the Treaty of Rome in 1957) because France and Germany had twice fought continent-destroying world wars in 20 years. The economies of France and Germany were shackled together precisely to stop that kinda thing.

Europe finally decided that no-one walks tall if no-one has to get down on their knees.
 

john625

Admired Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Posts
431
Media
0
Likes
784
Points
363
Location
NYC (New York, United States)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Obviously, you are not comprehending what I am saying. I am not equating the state of civil rights in America and China. The point I am trying to make is that when rightfully pressuring China, we overlook problems in the USA that are a real concern to the affected Americans given the general state of freedom in the USA. African-Americans to not enjoy the same economic and social freedoms as White Americans. Native Americans continue to be oppressed. I know members of the LBGTQ community who have been attacked or while not as serious fear for their livelihoods.

Given this, your comment that "you try living there for a bit" is quite school yard, don't you think? ;)