Is Africa the *white man's burden?

[B_Nick4444]

So do you agree that Africa might be "the white man's burden?" I don't see an ounce of truth in that. Any racist can back up their sentiments with facts.

see what I mean?

facts are of no consequence, when they contradict the canon

 

[lucky8]

So do you agree that Africa might be "the white man's burden?" I don't see an ounce of truth in that. Any racist can back up their sentiments with facts.

No i dont think it's the white man's burden at all, but I do KNOW that Africa is a continent that will be plagued with the problems the OP listed for centuries. The title of the thread is a little fucked, but the contents are pretty much on target

 

[marleyisalegend]

No i dont think it's the white man's burden at all, but I do KNOW that Africa is a continent that will be plagued with the problems the OP listed for centuries. The title of the thread is a little fucked, but the contents are pretty much on target

If I were low enough, I could EASILY denounce white people then support it with facts. Or women. Or eskimos or midgets. You're in the wrong century dude, it's 2008 not 1865, never ever ever ever ever do we ignore racism or any bigotry simply because it's supported by a few facts. You wanna know how many diseases have been cured by people that came from Africa? Wanna know how many comforts you enjoy thanks to those savage Africans? This story isn't anywhere near as one-sided as the OP implies, and if either of you think it is then I suggest a few sessions in the history section of your local library. My jaw literally hit the floor when you cosigned a bigot's rant just cuz he's "on target". Of course, being "on target" in this case means "being astronomically imbalanced".

 

[Freddie53]

Again Marley my values are clear. there is a saying: to prove your values is easy, tell me where you put your time and money. I KNOW where i put mine. How about you?

I know, you don't do shit. I physically do inner city work in Denver, Chicago and LA. 10s of 1000s of dollars of work on behalf of the poor. Kiss my ass, you just sit at a keyboard.

I love the Greek Chorus of naysayers who just sit on their asses.

Wow! This is certainly is not one of the best all time threads setting the standard of excellence here at the LPSG.

We have had threads in the past though that did set high standards of excellence. This thread is not one of them.

I applaud the money given by the OP to charity. I'm glad he is able to give that kind of money. It does my heart good to know that he really cares and is upset by the murder of gorillas. Those murders were inexcusable.

That doesn't mean that I agree at all with any of his political thinking. I really hate it that those gorillas were murdered. It is inexcusable. They were murdered as a result of a CIVIL WAR. Let's see, we had one of those here the the USA back in th 1860's. Lot of people black and white suffered greatly through that era.

In the 1940's Hilter and company certainly took Europe back all the way to hell with the murder of six million Jews and millions of others never accounted for. I've read estimates of upwards of 20 million people died during that era. It was a white European war. America got into it as a distant cousin of the United Kingdom and also Japan underestimated the ability of the USA to recover from Pearl Harbor.

But white people know better now because there aren't any wars like that now? There certainly aren't unless of course you consider Iraq. Six hundred thousand Iraqis have died there this decade according to what I read. We have had several Americans die there too.

Iraqis are not European. They are semitic which is a sub group of Caucasians, just as the Germanic people are a subgroup of Caucasians. The Chinese has had great success since 1949 in killing people.

NO need to go further. Africa has problems. But are they really that much different that the problems on the other continents when we consider events that have happened over time?

South Africa is economically growing. South Africa is a great success story. It takes great men to make that happen. Nelson Mandela ranks there with the greats: MLK, George Washington, Lincoln, Kennedy. Roosevelt, Winston Churchill.

Nelson Mandela never looked to a "white man's burden" as the solution to South Africa. Nelson Mandela was a kind and forgiving man who had a great great vision and had the capacity to invoke the passions of his people to rise up to the challenge. Mandela most likely won't live to see complete parity between the different ethnic gorups in South Africa. But Nelson Mandela won the respect of the white people who voluntarily gave control of the nation to a leader who won a true deomcratic election.

Let's not forget that much of Africa's problems are artificial borders drawn by colonial powers that separated close knit societies and put several societies that weren't connected together as one nation. The "real" nations borders aren't the ones drawn by the European colonialists.

The OP has gone way over board in making sweeping general assumptions based on scattered information that does not consider the history of how Africa got to the place Africa is today.

True black people are fighting and killing each other. Is that wrong. Certainly. Name any major ethnic group that can show that they are totally peace loving and avoid war and have always done this.

Sweden comes the closest. Sweden has not been involved in a war since the 1820's. Places like Iceland may have avoided war because they are isolated.

Marley, I would say you did a goo job of summing up the situation.

Again, to the OP, thanks for your contributions to charity. I find it wonderful that you are really upset at the murder of those gorillas. That was inexcusable to murder them in cold blood. But the assumptions that you then drew from all of that are not based on a solid factual basis, therefore, it doesn't hold much water at all.


Instead it takes away from the work that you have done to help those in need.

Black Africa is too diverse, too many different black ethnic groups and religions, customs, economic systems to paint them all with one large brush stroke. To do so, totally ignores the multiculturalism of Africa and its diverse people, some who are descended from Europeans, some who are native to the area and some whose ancestry is from other palces and sometimes many places.

Africa will have its day in the sunshine. It has been the sunshine continent before and no doubt will be again. The day will come when Nigeria and South Africa will both be very major players in world politics. That day isn't that far off.

 

[lucky8]

Marley, you're an idiot. It's an unfortunate truth, that doesn't mean it is racist. Explain to me how the contents of his thread are racist. I am aware that the thread title has a racial conotation to it, but other than that, explain to me how what he has said in his OP is racist. You can't, because Africa IS plagued by poverty, war, famine, corruption and disease, and many African nations are in as bad as shape as they can get

 

[marleyisalegend]

Marley, you're an idiot. It's an unfortunate truth, that doesn't mean it is racist.

You're saying a thread, by a self-proclaimed racist, isn't racist? And I'M the idiot? Welcome to my ignore list, shoot me an email when you finally get yourself a library card and educate yourself on something, anything for the love of God just educate yourself. I'm begging you. For YOUR sake.

 

[2322]

Africa, marley, is not a country. It's a continent consisting of many countries.

Is Africa the white man's burden?

It used to be. Now it's also the brown and yellow man's burden too.

The fact is that Africa has been completely fucked by others and continues to be. Dictators and despots of various stripes are installed or take power, get bought off by western nations, and they sell these despots sell their country's patrimony for personal enrichment. By all rights, Zaire and South Africa should be richer than Saudi but they're not. I blame Europe for breaking Africa and the industrialized world for continuing to do so. We need Africa's resources. We need nothing more from it.

Africa is also the black man's burden as well. Few sub-Saharan countries have truly democratic governments, any sort of public services to help lift the people out of poverty, and those that do, aren't rich in natural resources. There's nothing for the west to gain by keeping these countries impoverished by a dictator. Africans themselves do not get let off the hook. Time and again Africa has proven itself to be nearly unworkable in its present form. Most countries, as they are now defined, are relics of the colonial era when Europe defined what the borders of nations should be. Whole ethnic groups with no associations were thrown together creating irreconcilable differences and infighting that prevents any kind of stability necessary for economic and social growth. Until Africa either redraws the borders of most of its countries, or African society ceases to be primarily tribally-based, there will not be enough unity for any nation to succeed as a modern state. There have been occasional temporary successes, yet no single nation seems able to transcend its colonial or even pre-colonial past.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Africa, marley, is not a country. It's a continent consisting of many countries.

I'm well aware, for about 11 seconds I let....some random racist asshat, of course I'm not talking about anyone here, make my eye twitch and I was less concerned with distinguishing "continent" from "country" as I was with the amazing fact that bigotry is being defended by people who apparently think it's okay. Telling. Very telling. The OP ADMITTED that he's probably racist, and some of you are fondling and stroking his balls and defending him as if he accidently called someone the wrong name. Speaking of values....

 

[lucky8]

Does this work for u

 

[TurkeyWithaSunburn]

when will it end?

 

[Guy-jin]

People who don't know the OP:

It's racist because the OP has posted time and time again that Africans are predisposed to being inferior to other races on Earth. He's not innocently asking a question here. He's just trying to make another baseless case for his stance that Africans are an inferior race of people.

Anyone with a lick of knowledge about Africa knows that the reason Africa is the way it is has nothing to do with the skin color or genes of African people.

I've seen this particular poster time and time again post drivel about how particular races of people are the way they are because of genetics. As someone who's basically an expert on genetics at this point, I find it deplorable.

So stop defending him. You do not want to be in the same boat as him. And if you do, you are a piece of racist shit too.

Sorry if that's blunt. "I'm not here to make friends." At least not with mouthy racist morons.

 

[marleyisalegend]

deleted

 

[dong20]

White Man's Burden is a poem but Rudyard Kipling. It
referred to the US and the Phillipines but the title is apropos today for Africa.

I disagree, for the most part, contemporary Africa is the African's burden.

That continent is a nightmare from coast to coast. Tribal warfare, AIDS, malaria, Muboto, Zimbabwe, Darfur, Soweto, Rwanda, Uganda it goes on and on. Every single continent gained trade over the last decade except Africa. The only thing anyone wants from that dismal place is minerals. They produce nothing
anyone wants. Per capita income may be falling relative to the rest of the world and
even tho they have excess coal and oil they cut down acres of trees to make charcoal
to heat their huts.

To top it off they senselessly murdered 7 gentle mountain gorillas to prove a point.
Not for meat or trophy or animal trade. Just murdered them.

All those things occur(ed) (and most not just in Africa of course), but to generalise an entire continent on that basis seems rather a simplistic and ignorant generalisation.

Also, who exactly are 'they'? In a continent comprised of over 50 nations and close to a billion people it's a somewhat generic label. Unless of course you mean all Africans
are the same, is that what you mean, Wyld?

The charitable works I do in real time likely dwarf
anything you do. ... opening the National Geographic that shows those poor murdered
gorillas set me off.

Read in isolation I wouldn't conclude your comments were racist, at least not in the usual sense, more in the definitive one. I do believe they are rooted in popular perception, one formulated and refined from a distance. However it's the pattern of threads rooted in racially aligned statistical studies from which you are drawing some questionable conclusions that give me pause to consider your true motivation. No matter, we are what we are.

I would add, with all the problems facing Africa, if what set you off was the untimely demise of some higher primates, I would question your understanding and perspective of what's really going on.

Me and a buddy bought a used schoolbus for a school in
Uganda. I support, WITH REAL MONEY, 10 kid's education in Uganda. My conscience is
clean when it comes to efforts made on my part in that part of the world.

Sorry but it gives me the right to post my thoughts on a
message board. Especially by pontificators whose purses and wallets stay closed. Do
what I do and then you can bark.
...

tell me what you are personally doing to help over there, all of you. I kick in about $400 a month for people i do not know. Do you?

Good for you Wyld, and if it makes you feel better about yourself, fine but in reality it's
little more than a psychological salve. In my experience, true philanthropists rarely feel the need to tout their actions so loudly, letting their deeds speak for themselves.

Personally, I prefer a more 'hands on' approach. If signing a cheque or two is enough for you, as I said above, that's fine but it doesn't by definition make you part of
the solution. Many I speak to (actual Africans in Africa, that is), and I respect their
opinion on this issue rather more than your own, would argue quite logically that it makes you more a part of the problem, or at best, an accomplice to its perpetuation. Do I need to explain why they may feel that way?

I admire the fact you are helping out the children of that
school that is quite the act but clearly you don't take the "time" to actually think
out your arguments you are thinking with a narrow view towards the situation.
...

And if it "proves my values" about this subject I have actually spent two months in
Ghana, West Africa volunteering my time as a teacher at a school living with a host
family and traveling the country.

That matches some of my points exactly, chequebook based conscience cleansing, ugh.

That is a extremely simple minded way to view Africa as a
whole. ... The stereotype of Africans living in huts with elephants and giraffes is so
far off base it is laughable. To say that the entire continent is "going backward and
will never get it right" is a very ignorant view.

Agreed, although you'll find it's somewhat indicative of the OP's M.O.

Here are your "values" (if you can call them that)

1. People killing gorillas means it's okay to be racist

2. Sending a check cancels out the racism

Maybe dial the outrage back a notch, Marley? Not everything is racist merely because the subjects of a particular position have (predominately) black skin. Racism isn't (just)
about skin colour it's about perception and irrational bias - things generally rooted
in ignorance.

Your ignorance of the history of the country is astounding, but it wouldn't take a thread, or a website to educate you on the history of the country and it's people,

What the hell? Since when is telling the truth racist? Africa
is, by 'n large, a country of vast poverty, war, corruption, and disease, and it will
be for a very long time

You should join Marley ... in remedial Geography class. :wink:

 

[dong20]

I applaud the money given by the OP to charity. I'm glad he
is able to give that kind of money. It does my heart good to know that he really cares
and is upset by the murder of gorillas. Those murders were inexcusable.

I appreciate this is an inferred and cynical view, but perhaps he 'cares' in so far as he can sign a cheque, perhaps that's a cynical but it's my view nonetheless. The deaths of the Gorillas is appalling to us, but inexcusable? ... perhaps you need to dig a little deeper before concluding that it's so clear cut - from a perspective other than a 'western one' that is.

South Africa is economically growing. South Africa is a great
success story. It takes great men to make that happen. Nelson Mandela ranks there with the greats: MLK, George Washington, Lincoln, Kennedy. Roosevelt, Winston Churchill.
...
Nelson Mandela was a kind and forgiving man who had a great great vision and had the
capacity to invoke the passions of his people to rise up to the challenge. Mandela
most likely won't live to see complete parity between the different ethnic gorups in
South Africa. But Nelson Mandela won the respect of the white people who voluntarily
gave control of the nation to a leader who won a true deomcratic election.

I'd argue it's a qualified success, and that your comments are (IMHO) a little simplistic, if not naive. As for Mandela, yes he is a powerful and respected figure, justifiably so but that didn't mean he didn't use methods that would today be considered terrorism when he deemed them necessary. Although I broadly agree with that decision let's not bury reality in rose tinted nostalgia. I touched on that with Drifter in a earlier thread.

Let's not forget that much of Africa's problems are
artificial borders drawn by colonial powers that separated close knit societies and
put several societies that weren't connected together as one nation. The "real"
nations borders aren't the ones drawn by the European colonialists.

I think far too few understand (or even try to) the destructive influence of colonialism in subverting 'traditional' African social structures, and I cut many national leaders huge amounts of slack in dealing with the immediate fall out. No so today.

On a side note, while few people are alive that can remember such times as more than a childhood memory, and yet 'perversely' (when taken at face value that is) many of them do so fondly.

The OP has gone way over board in making sweeping general
assumptions based on scattered information that does not consider the history of how
Africa got to the place Africa is today. True black people are fighting and killing each other. Is that wrong. Certainly.

Yes, but to play devil's advocate with regard to your final sentence; what does their skin colour have to do with it?

Name any major ethnic group that can show that they are
totally peace loving and avoid war and have always done this.

Exactly, see above.:smile:

Black Africa is too diverse, too many different black ethnic
groups and religions, customs, economic systems to paint them all with one large brush
stroke. To do so, totally ignores the multiculturalism of Africa and its diverse
people, some who are descended from Europeans, some who are native to the area and
some whose ancestry is from other palces and sometimes many places.

Yes, but that 'inconvenient' truth will rarely stop those with tunnel vision from concluding that their view is, in fact based on a wider understanding of the world than it really is.

Africa will have its day in the sunshine. It has been the
sunshine continent before and no doubt will be again. The day will come when Nigeria
and South Africa will both be very major players in world politics. That day isn't
that far off.

Perhaps, but I don't agree with the characterisation, or the optimistic time scale.

They are going backwards and they will never get it
[t]right. What a sad place.

Never? Well, that's a tremendously definitive assertion and forever is a long time.

I don't 'understand' Africa. I don't believe such a thing possible with completeness - for reasons already stated by others, certainly not for someone who didn't grow up there. But then I don't delude myself with the pretence of doing so, nor make sweeping generalised conclusions based on intelligence gained from the other side of the world. At least I try not to.

It was a fortuitous 'drive by', I'm on a flight to Johannesburg tomorrow, Wyld.
I'm actually on my way further north, and will undoubtably be spending some time in mud huts with some of 'them'. Sadly, Internet access is often available (cellular networks being so pervasive these days) so I'll be sure to pass on your regards to the dark continent, perhaps I can share your perspective with them if you like? I can check on that Bus for you, where in Uganda is it based?

Meanwhile, please; enlighten us by revealing how much of your 'wisdom' is based
on first hand experience in this 'sad' place, with examples please. It may avoid me being part of the Sunday roast in your stead if 'they' take exception.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Yes my charitable works, IMO, give me the right to state what I believe.

From 1974-1978 I coached boys/girls basketball and baseball at Rowley Park Gardena California. 99% of the kids were African American. I did it cause no fathers would. For free.

rowley park gardena - Google Search

In grad school I was a volunteer in Chicago for the Cabrini Green project for 4 years.
Cabrini-Green - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For 5 years I was a provider for the Joan Kroc Center for the homeless

St. Vincent de Paul Village - San Diego, CA Detail

I am now in the process of registering as a provider for *Doctors without Borders* but apparently I have to pass some health stuff inorder to be accepted. I will end up in Guatemala but when i retire I am going to Uganda. I have been kicking them a check and now its time to put in real time.

Doctors Without Borders | MSF USA

The past 3 weekends I spent helping run Camp Comfort, a weekend retreat for kids who have lost a sibling or parent.

Mount Saint Vincent Home Page

I don't think I am racist, but certainly prejudiced. I am beginning to think that sub Saharan males will simply never get it. It is just what I see. The women are kicking the shit out of them all over the earth. I just read an article where the women in Ghana or somewhere have taken over the traffic police and finally the thing is being run without corruption. A small thing but why? Why?

Since I walk the walk I am going say what I think.

 

[B_Nick4444]

I see

(wasn't aware of the history)

presents a dilemma, given that there are some tenable issues

issues, BTW, that have mostly fallen by the wayside, given the emotional charge of the racism aspects, focusing on the OP, instead of the issues

People who don't know the OP:

It's racist because the OP has posted time and time again that Africans are predisposed to being inferior to other races on Earth. He's not innocently asking a question here. He's just trying to make another baseless case for his stance that Africans are an inferior race of people.

Anyone with a lick of knowledge about Africa knows that the reason Africa is the way it is has nothing to do with the skin color or genes of African people.

I've seen this particular poster time and time again post drivel about how particular races of people are the way they are because of genetics. As someone who's basically an expert on genetics at this point, I find it deplorable.

So stop defending him. You do not want to be in the same boat as him. And if you do, you are a piece of racist shit too.

Sorry if that's blunt. "I'm not here to make friends." At least not with mouthy racist morons.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

I see

(wasn't aware of the history)

presents a dilemma, given that there are some tenable issues

issues, BTW, that have mostly fallen by the wayside, given the emotional charge of the racism aspects, focusing on the OP, instead of the issues

I do not deny I have made what many would judge as distasteful posts in the past. Why back off from them? I posted them. However NO ONE refuted them. Oh they label me a racist but still no refute.

Refute the fact that AIDS in Africa could be curbed if men would simply wear condoms.

Refute the fact that Africa makes very little value added products for which to sell in trade with other nations. I doubt anyone here owns anything made in Africa.

Refute the fact that large areas still struggle to provide enough food to eat.

Refute the fact that the place is riddled with wide spread corruption.

Refute the fact that they are poaching endangered species.

Refute the fact that malaria is still a huge issue in Africa. Remember malaria used to be a problem in England and America but we conquered it decades ago.

Refute the fact that institutional rape is still an issue.

Refute the fact that the standard of living may be declining relative to the rest of the world.

Refute the fact that the population seems limited in capabality of helping themselves.

 

[Guy-jin]

I see

(wasn't aware of the history)

presents a dilemma, given that there are some tenable issues

issues, BTW, that have mostly fallen by the wayside, given the emotional charge of the racism aspects, focusing on the OP, instead of the issues

Were the issues presented what actually interested the OP, they would be worth discussing.

However, he is simply framing an argument to eventually make a case that African people are fundamentally inferior to the other peoples of the world.

Going through the effort to address the issues and explaining that the current state of Africa is a consequence of its geography and history will result in him denying those facts and, again, stating that it's because Africans are fundamentally inferior.

Which, of course, is complete bullshit.

So, if someone wants to take the effort to hold the OP's hand through all the reasons Africa is the way it is just so the OP can spit in his face and be a racist asshole back to him, he's free to. But I'm not going to waste my time with it.

If you want to know why Africa is the way it is, crack open a history book. Don't come onto a big penis forum and expect someone with a history of racist posting to teach it to you.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Were the issues presented what actually interested the OP, they would be worth discussing.

However, he is simply framing an argument to eventually make a case that African people are fundamentally inferior to the other peoples of the world.

Going through the effort to address the issues and explaining that the current state of Africa is a consequence of its geography and history will result in him denying those facts and, again, stating that it's because Africans are fundamentally inferior.

Which, of course, is complete bullshit.

So, if someone wants to take the effort to hold the OP's hand through all the reasons Africa is the way it is just so the OP can spit in his face and be a racist asshole back to him, he's free to. But I'm not going to waste my time with it.

If you want to know why Africa is the way it is, crack open a history book. Don't come onto a big penis forum and expect someone with a history of racist posting to teach it to you.

The time frame for economies to mature is now down to just decades. thats all it takes. We carpet bombed and defoliated Vietnam, which was a Fench colony and subject to the same perils of African colonies and yet just 3 decades later we get this : http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/25/business/worldbusiness/25vietnam.html

Eastern Europe the same. Ireland too.

And Africa still goes backwards. And we get this: BBC News | AFRICA | Baby rapes shock South Africa
and this Child-rape epidemic<br> in South Africa

Explain to me how colonialism and geography and history lead to babies/children being raped at the rate of 58 a day.

More *Guns, Germs and Steel* nonsense? Its not their fault? Geography and history? Why this economy in Africa :

>>>>>>>The economy of Africa consists of the trade, industry, and resources of the peoples of Africa. As of July 2005, approximately 887 million people were living in 54 different states. Africa is the world's poorest inhabited continent. Though parts of the continent have made significant gains over the last few years, of the 175 countries reviewed in the United Nations' Human Development Report 2003, 25 African nations ranked lowest amongst the nations of the world. This is partly due to its turbulent history. The decolonization of Africa was fraught with instability aggravated by cold war conflict. Since mid-20th century the Cold War and increased corruption and despotism have also contributed to Africa's poor economy.
The biggest contrast in terms of development has been between Africa and the economy of East Asia. The economies of China and India have grown rapidly, while Latin America has also experienced moderate growth, lifting millions above subsistence living. By contrast, much of Africa has stagnated and even regressed in terms of foreign trade, investment, per capita income, and other economic growth measures.[1] Poverty has had widespread effects, including low life expectancy, violence, and instability, which in turn have perpetuated the continent's growth problems. Over the decades, there have been many unsuccessful attempts to improve the economies of individual African <<<<<<<<<

So, the entire rest of the EARTH has gotten better but Africa remains stagnated and it is because of history and geography? Tons of natural resources, lots of rivers, favorable growing seasons and its the fault of Europe and Colonialism?

I am open to hearing any reasons you might have to explain any of the above. I especially want to hear the reason for gangs of adult men raping an 8 month old and why its common and accepted.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Yes my charitable works, IMO, give me the right to state what I believe.

No it doesn't, it simply doesn't. You really believe that the right to prejudice can be bought? That's terribly disgusting, you'd have fitted in more during the transatlantic slave trade, or Hitler's reign. In 2008 you sould like a self-important, self-absored white man who views himself as the savior of the helpless black community.

From 1974-1978 I coached boys/girls basketball and baseball at Rowley Park Gardena California. 99% of the kids were African American. I did it cause no fathers would. For free.

Kudos. I'm giving credit where credit is due, but you're still an egotistical bigot.

I have been kicking them a check and now its time to put in real time.

Good, why don't you go over there and give the people a piece of your mind? Print out this thread and show it to them. It's not like you're a fucking coward who's going to go over there, do his work, then on the trip back mutter under his breath "savages!"

I don't think I am racist, but certainly prejudiced. I am beginning to think that sub Saharan males will simply never get it.

The different is minimal. Prejucide isn't something you should be proud of. You REALLY need to see a specialist, that's not an insult, I'm being serious. The concept of "buying the right to prejucide" reveals some serious malfunctioning in your brain.

I just read an article where the women in Ghana or somewhere have taken over the traffic police and finally the thing is being run without corruption. A small thing but why? Why?

You don't care why, you don't care to understand why, you just enjoy talking about how savage these people are.

Since I walk the walk I am going say what I think.

A lot easier to say it here than over there. You don't walk the walk, you hide behind the guise of the internet.