Is Africa the *white man's burden?

[AlteredEgo]

The US needs to stop being the welfare tit for all these other countries and to start taking care of things here in the US.

When has the US government actually given aid to Africa in the way it gives aid to European nations at civil war? Are you even discussing this thread?

 

[Freddie53]

Five pages and no one mentions anything about the effect that western colonisation has had on Africa?

Not quite true though enough hasn't been said about that. I mentioned it in the artificial borders that the European nations drew. That has had a devastatingly affect on Africa. Ethnic groups that speak the same language, same religion and culture were divided up and then put together with other ethnic groups that historically have been their enemies causing terrible conflict within the borders of these artificial nations to this day.

Nigeria is a good example. There are two major ethnic groups in Nigeria. One is Christian. One is Muslim. They don't speak the same language. They have been enemies for centuries. But, they were put together as one nation by the British Empire. Nigeria should be the wonder nation of Africa. It has the largest population. It has oil. But its wealth has been squandered in civil war strife much of the time since 1960 when Nigeria became independent.

Nigeria has only been independent since 1960. That hasn't quite been 50 years. Some 60 years after American independence, Andrew Jackson was forcing Native Americans to move from the Alabama and Georgia even though they were farmers and "civilized" according to European standards. But Jackson hated Native Americans. So we had the Trail of Tears. It wasn't murder. It was forced evacuation without adequate supplies and rest culminating in the death of untold numbers of Native Americans from disease, exposure and hunger.

My point is that in our early years of independence we weren't all that pristine in our history either. No one is. Where there is humanity, there will be greed, racism, hatred abounding. There is also love, peace abounding as well. But most nations have a point in time when the greed racism and hatred are in control of a large segment of the population.

 

[D_Bob_Crotchitch]

Not quite true though enough hasn't been said about that. I mentioned it in the artificial borders that the European nations drew. That has had a devastatingly affect on Africa. Ethnic groups that speak the same language, same religion and culture were divided up and then put together with other ethnic groups that historically have been their enemies causing terrible conflict within the borders of these artificial nations to this day.

Nigeria is a good example. There are two major ethnic groups in Nigeria. One is Christian. One is Muslim. They don't speak the same language. They have been enemies for centuries. But, they were put together as one nation by the British Empire. Nigeria should be the wonder nation of Africa. It has the largest population. It has oil. But its wealth has been squandered in civil war strife much of the time since 1960 when Nigeria became independent.

Nigeria has only been independent since 1960. That hasn't quite been 50 years. Some 60 years after American independence, Andrew Jackson was forcing Native Americans to move from the Alabama and Georgia even though they were farmers and "civilized" according to European standards. But Jackson hated Native Americans. So we had the Trail of Tears. It wasn't murder. It was forced evacuation without adequate supplies and rest culminating in the death of untold numbers of Native Americans from disease, exposure and hunger.

My point is that in our early years of independence we weren't all that pristine in our history either. No one is. Where there is humanity, there will be greed, racism, hatred abounding. There is also love, peace abounding as well. But most nations have a point in time when the greed racism and hatred are in control of a large segment of the population.

It wasn't that Jackson hated the Cherokee, it's that citizens wanted the Cherokees land. It was fertile soil and highly desirable. He lost the fight in the federal courts but went ahead anyways. Not all the deaths were from hunger and exposure. Some were shot on the march to Oklahoma.

 

[Guy-jin]

This is like stealing candy from a baby or shooting fish in a barrel. Pwned?

Map of The World - World Atlas - MSN Encarta

Here is a map of the world. Toggle it up and down please. Run the latitude of Africa across the earth. What do you get?

India, Vietnam, Australia, Peru, BRAZIL!!!!!, Colombia, Argentina, HONG KONG!!!!!, all rapidly advancing economies with the same geography as Africa. Get real, Brazil is rapidly becoming an econ super power. Brazil has figured it out and is thriving. In the tropics.

Thailand, Singapore, Bolivia. Same latitude as African nations and doing lots better. Geography? Sure.

Game, set, maybe match? Drop the Jared Diamond nonsense. He has been discredited completely.

You just told me that Brazil has the same geography as Africa.

And you ignored historical factors.

Game, set, match indeed. You are as stupid as the first time I saw you post this racist drivel.

 

[D_Bob_Crotchitch]

You just told me that Brazil has the same geography as Africa.

And you ignored historical factors.

Game, set, match indeed. You are as stupid as the first time I saw you post this racist drivel.

If you think that is going to stop someone from making ignorant posts, you haven't been paying close attention.

 

[Guy-jin]

If you think that is going to stop someone from making ignorant posts, you haven't been paying close attention.

Yep. That's why I'm not spending a lot of time obliterating his standpoint. I mean, to the intelligent, his stance couldn't be more transparent anyway, so it would just be a waste of my time. :smile:

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

If you think that is going to stop someone from making ignorant posts, you haven't been paying close attention.

Doesn't bother Guy-jin.
He likes to shoot fish in a barrel.

 

[D_Bob_Crotchitch]

Doesn't bother Guy-jin.
He likes to shoot fish in a barrel.

Rubi, you want to come with me and NJQT on the ice cream tour? Bring your red dress in case we need help getting better service.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Rubi, you want to come with me and NJQT on the ice cream tour? Bring your red dress in case we need help getting better service.

Oh, I can get service alright.
Sign me on.
(You really like that red dress, donchuh?)

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Yep. That's why I'm not spending a lot of time obliterating his standpoint. I mean, to the intelligent, his stance couldn't be more transparent anyway, so it would just be a waste of my time. :smile:

Go ahead , IF YOU CAN, and obliterate it. Take a shot. I am very honest about how I feel and I won't deny what I have said and posted. It isn't pretty and I know that. There are just so many areas of the world that have many if not all of the issues facing Africa, that have seemd to moved ahead.

You said geography and history are the reasons for Africa's issues. Why would Africa's issues be different than Vietnam or the Phillipines?

This is the tropical, badly colonially abused econ of the Phillipines, which has no natural resources: Economy of the Philippines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brazil is at the same latitude as Africa, with a very tropical ecosystem, lots of tribes of native South Americans, an awkward colonial past, and yet it has moved into pre eminence as an econ power.

India is much the same. Colonial abuse, many many ethnic conflicts, an overwhelming population, strong ethnic strife between muslims and Hindus, sikhs and non sikhs, and yet they have moved ahead.

I have read the histories of Africa. IMO it fails to be much different from the histories of other turbulent areas of the world that can point to similar issues but have advanced.

If I am missing something, I am open to reading it.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Not quite true though enough hasn't been said about that. I mentioned it in the artificial borders that the European nations drew. That has had a devastatingly affect on Africa. Ethnic groups that speak the same language, same religion and culture were divided up and then put together with other ethnic groups that historically have been their enemies causing terrible conflict within the borders of these artificial nations to this day.

Nigeria is a good example. There are two major ethnic groups in Nigeria. One is Christian. One is Muslim. They don't speak the same language. They have been enemies for centuries. But, they were put together as one nation by the British Empire. Nigeria should be the wonder nation of Africa. It has the largest population. It has oil. But its wealth has been squandered in civil war strife much of the time since 1960 when Nigeria became independent.

Nigeria has only been independent since 1960. That hasn't quite been 50 years. Some 60 years after American independence, Andrew Jackson was forcing Native Americans to move from the Alabama and Georgia even though they were farmers and "civilized" according to European standards. But Jackson hated Native Americans. So we had the Trail of Tears. It wasn't murder. It was forced evacuation without adequate supplies and rest culminating in the death of untold numbers of Native Americans from disease, exposure and hunger.

My point is that in our early years of independence we weren't all that pristine in our history either. No one is. Where there is humanity, there will be greed, racism, hatred abounding. There is also love, peace abounding as well. But most nations have a point in time when the greed racism and hatred are in control of a large segment of the population.

My hobbies take me on many Native American relocation camps (reservations). To me they are relocation camps ala Manzanar Manzanar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which being the ugly racist that I ma have spent hours walking and trying to understand how a place like that came to be.

The hatred the *Indians* feel for the white man is palpable. Given the horrific fate we have consigned the *Red man* to thru our disgraceful history, I see why.

My issue is how Africa appears to be going backwards. The time frames for countries to *get it* is very short now. It takes only decades. As sited b/4, look at Vietnam, which was *virtually obliterated* following the Vietnam war. Japan went from a closed society to a world power in less than 85 years 1852 to 1930 or so. Brazil was in chaos just 15 years ago or so.

 

[185248]

Hey, if we all owned a Time Machine, and could go back and undo all the things that hurt, all the mistakes, all the bullshit...........you know what, we would never have made it out of the swamp!

You breath the same air, you bleed the same colour, But that does not necessarily mean we think the same or believe the same, true colour comes with understanding the other....if you want to talk or argue about race...........there is no winner in this race.

 

[D_Bob_Crotchitch]

Hey, if we all owned a Time Machine, and could go back and undo all the things that hurt, all the mistakes, all the bullshit...........you know what, we would never have made it out of the swamp!

You breath the same air, you bleed the same colour, But that does not necessarily mean we think the same or believe the same, true colour comes with understanding the other....if you want to talk or argue about race...........there is no winner in this race.

Oh my gosh! Someone with sense is posting on here! faint X^X

 

[B_Nick4444]

Not quite true though enough hasn't been said about that. I mentioned it in the artificial borders that the European nations drew. That has had a devastatingly affect on Africa. Ethnic groups that speak the same language, same religion and culture were divided up and then put together with other ethnic groups that historically have been their enemies causing terrible conflict within the borders of these artificial nations to this day.

exactly

couple this with the cultural dynamics of these small-scale societies, and you have the situation that is current-day Africa today

by that I mean, is that these societies cannot overnight become an rationalized, industrialized society with a nationalistic consciousness that over-rides these ethnic divisions

try to picture Medieval Europeans trying to navigate on a a day-today basis, European society as it exists today

the conquering Spanish understood this well

first, they had to replace the indigenous culture with the religion, and social structure of Spain, and so implant their world-view, to which the conquered people would subscribe

then they could be properly incorporated within the colonial hierarchy

so, too, you will see that happen before the Africans can be properly subjugated, oops, I mean "integrated" into the global economy

so, what I don't hear anyone questioning in this thread are the "givens" of the discussion

one of which, if I correctly understand the points being made by both camps is:

that the Africans are better off, by losing their history and identity and allegiances, and engaging in monetized activity, indistinguishable from Europeans, North Americans, etc., buying pre-packaged food (the same types of food available in London, Paris, Stockholm, Muleshoe, Texas), eating out at McDonald's, watching re-runs of "I Love Lucy", and, of course, subscribing to the nihilism of secular humanism, that is the enabling ideology of globalism

 

[dreamer20]

The White Man's Burden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Henry Labouchère's poem was written in response to "The White Man's Burden" by the English poet Rudyard Kipling. The Kipling poem was emblematic both of Eurocentric racism and of Western aspirations to dominate the developing world via colonization.


The Brown Man's Burden

By Henry Labouchère

Truth (London); reprinted in Literary Digest 18 (Feb. 25, 1899).​

Pile on the brown man's burden To gratify your greed; Go, clear away the "niggers" Who progress would impede; Be very stern, for truly 'Tis useless to be mild With new-caught, sullen peoples, Half devil and half child.

Pile on the brown man's burden; And, if ye rouse his hate, Meet his old-fashioned reasons With Maxims up to date. With shells and dumdum bullets A hundred times made plain The brown man's loss must ever Imply the white man's gain.

Pile on the brown man's burden, compel him to be free; Let all your manifestoes Reek with philanthropy. And if with heathen folly He dares your will dispute, Then, in the name of freedom, Don't hesitate to shoot.

Pile on the brown man's burden, And if his cry be sore, That surely need not irk you-- Ye've driven slaves before. Seize on his ports and pastures, The fields his people tread; Go make from them your living, And mark them with his dead.

Pile on the brown man's burden, Nor do not deem it hard If you should earn the rancor Of those ye yearn to guard. The screaming of your Eagle Will drown the victim's sob-- Go on through fire and slaughter. There's dollars in the job.

Pile on the brown man's burden, And through the world proclaim That ye are Freedom's agent-- There's no more paying game! And, should your own past history Straight in your teeth be thrown, Retort that independence Is good for whites alone.

Pile on the brown man's burden, With equity have done; Weak, antiquated scruples Their squeamish course have run, And, though 'tis freedom's banner You're waving in the van, Reserve for home consumption The sacred "rights of man"! And if by chance ye falter, Or lag along the course, If, as the blood flows freely, Ye feel some slight remorse, Hie ye to Rudyard Kipling, Imperialism's prop, And bid him, for your comfort, Turn on his jingo stop.

The Brown Man

 

[Penis Aficionado]

I think Wyldgusechaz' point is basically correct. Less than a hundred years ago in our country, large segments of society condoned lynching of blacks; forced sterilization of those deemed mentally inferior; the right of husbands to rape and beat their wives. My grandparents (!) lived in an America where those things were accepted.

Today they are unthinkable, because we are so much more sensitive to the rights of others, and so vigilant against the kind of us-vs.-them groupthink that leads to unspeakable cruelty. In less than a century we went from a civilization that I would compare to modern-day Iran or Saudi Arabia -- a religious-fundamentalist state hyperaware of class and ethnic differences -- to where we are today.

Now from all the information available to me, Africa is a shithole of epic proportions. No, I haven't been there, or met any of the warm, wonderful people who no doubt live there. Sorry, but I have no interest in going to a place where every five years, one group of people go into insane fucking slaughter mode against another group of people who are from all outward appearances identical to them, until the rivers LITERALLY turn to blood. If Saudi Arabia is like Western civilization a hundred years ago, Africa is still in the dark ages. Although it's true that civilizations do tend to "get it" more quickly these days, Africa has a long way to go just to reach a mundane level of ignorance, poverty and bloodthirstiness.

 

[Guy-jin]

I think Wyldgusechaz' point is basically correct. Less than a hundred years ago in our country, large segments of society condoned lynching of blacks; forced sterilization of those deemed mentally inferior; the right of husbands to rape and beat their wives. My grandparents (!) lived in an America where those things were accepted.

Today they are unthinkable, because we are so much more sensitive to the rights of others, and so vigilant against the kind of us-vs.-them groupthink that leads to unspeakable cruelty. In less than a century we went from a civilization that I would compare to modern-day Iran or Saudi Arabia -- a religious-fundamentalist state hyperaware of class and ethnic differences -- to where we are today.

Now from all the information available to me, Africa is a shithole of epic proportions. No, I haven't been there, or met any of the warm, wonderful people who no doubt live there. Sorry, but I have no interest in going to a place where every five years, one group of people go into insane fucking slaughter mode against another group of people who are from all outward appearances identical to them, until the rivers LITERALLY turn to blood. If Saudi Arabia is like Western civilization a hundred years ago, Africa is still in the dark ages. Although it's true that civilizations do tend to "get it" more quickly these days, Africa has a long way to go just to reach a mundane level of ignorance, poverty and bloodthirstiness.

Africa is nothing like America. Geography, history, religion, race, people, technology, economy--they are not comparable on any of these levels.

So no, Wyldgeusechaz's point is not correct. It's the opposite of correct. The only people who would agree with him are people who think, for some mind-boggling reason, that a place like America is comparable to Africa.

Wyld, the amount of things you are "missing" is so immense, it would take a ten week course to review them all. And you aren't interested in them anyway. You are now and always have taken a racist stance on this issue, and you have never displayed an ounce of interest in actually, thoughtfully analyzing these situations to explain why they are the way they are. Your answer always leads back to the statement: "Africans are fundamentally inferior to the other peoples of the world."

Which is why I won't take the time. If you're actually taking a new leaf, I applaud you, and encourage you to go do some real critical reading on this issue. But come on, we both know why you're posting this. You have a racist agenda to push. And sorry, but I won't let you get away with it as long as I'm here to monitor you.

 

[B_Nick4444]

quite a piece for the 19th Century

The White Man's Burden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Henry Labouchère's poem was written in response to "The White Man's Burden" by the English poet Rudyard Kipling. The Kipling poem was emblematic both of Eurocentric racism and of Western aspirations to dominate the developing world via colonization.


The Brown Man's Burden

By Henry Labouchère

Truth (London); reprinted in Literary Digest 18 (Feb. 25, 1899).​

Pile on the brown man's burden To gratify your greed; Go, clear away the "niggers" Who progress would impede; Be very stern, for truly 'Tis useless to be mild With new-caught, sullen peoples, Half devil and half child.

Pile on the brown man's burden; And, if ye rouse his hate, Meet his old-fashioned reasons With Maxims up to date. With shells and dumdum bullets A hundred times made plain The brown man's loss must ever Imply the white man's gain.

Pile on the brown man's burden, compel him to be free; Let all your manifestoes Reek with philanthropy. And if with heathen folly He dares your will dispute, Then, in the name of freedom, Don't hesitate to shoot.

Pile on the brown man's burden, And if his cry be sore, That surely need not irk you-- Ye've driven slaves before. Seize on his ports and pastures, The fields his people tread; Go make from them your living, And mark them with his dead.

Pile on the brown man's burden, Nor do not deem it hard If you should earn the rancor Of those ye yearn to guard. The screaming of your Eagle Will drown the victim's sob-- Go on through fire and slaughter. There's dollars in the job.

Pile on the brown man's burden, And through the world proclaim That ye are Freedom's agent-- There's no more paying game! And, should your own past history Straight in your teeth be thrown, Retort that independence Is good for whites alone.

Pile on the brown man's burden, With equity have done; Weak, antiquated scruples Their squeamish course have run, And, though 'tis freedom's banner You're waving in the van, Reserve for home consumption The sacred "rights of man"! And if by chance ye falter, Or lag along the course, If, as the blood flows freely, Ye feel some slight remorse, Hie ye to Rudyard Kipling, Imperialism's prop, And bid him, for your comfort, Turn on his jingo stop.

The Brown Man

 

[Penis Aficionado]

I know Africa is nothing like America -- it sucks a lot worse! It's more violent, more poor, more disease-ridden, more ruled by religious and ethnic hatreds, etc. etc. Like Western Civilization was, oh, maybe 800 years ago. I don't think it's racist to point out that they are 800 years behind in terms of the evolution of their society. It's just the reality (as it appears to me from reading and watching the news on TV. Granted, that could be very misleading, but it's hard to believe that, for instance, Darfur and Rwanda weren't pretty much as bad as I imagine.)

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Africa is nothing like America. Geography, history, religion, race, people, technology, economy--they are not comparable on any of these levels.

So no, Wyldgeusechaz's point is not correct. It's the opposite of correct. The only people who would agree with him are people who think, for some mind-boggling reason, that a place like America is comparable to Africa.

Wyld, the amount of things you are "missing" is so immense, it would take a ten week course to review them all. And you aren't interested in them anyway. You are now and always have taken a racist stance on this issue, and you have never displayed an ounce of interest in actually, thoughtfully analyzing these situations to explain why they are the way they are. Your answer always leads back to the statement: "Africans are fundamentally inferior to the other peoples of the world."

Which is why I won't take the time. If you're actually taking a new leaf, I applaud you, and encourage you to go do some real critical reading on this issue. But come on, we both know why you're posting this. You have a racist agenda to push. And sorry, but I won't let you get away with it as long as I'm here to monitor you.

Wow. How wonderful. You SAY you can show, but you don't. Thats courageous. And you are going to monitor me? I am honest, you are an internet coward. What exactly do you do to better your fellow man? You are a chickenshit coward . I don't need you to monitor me, you don't do anything for your fellow man thats worth anything. I listed my efforts.

Let me ask you this: Why is Haiti so difficult?

Haiti is the first black run country in the New World and AGAIN the poorest.
Economy of Haiti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why do African based countries have so much trouble developing value added production? If they do not develop VAP, they will be consigned to complete marginality. VAP, taking raw materials and producing consumer items is what elevates an economy. Thats what China is doing and Vietnam and India.

After awhile, I think any person might question the commonality of why things are the way they are. I see it as demographics. If that makes me a racist, so be it. At least I am not an internet fraud and panderer and apologist.

Shit Australia was settled by the dregs of English society, has no real resources and yet is way better off than Africa. Its like 12000 miles from Europe. Why Australia?

Where is the Vietnam of Africa? Where is the Hong Kong of Africa? 54 countries, spread over several latitudes, and none works. Randomly by pure dumb luck, 5 should be equal to Vietnam, a country that was in a colonial civil war from at least 1954 to 1974, and with practically no natural resources.

The per capita income of Africa was HIGHER when it was colonialized. It has gone downhill since.

The 25 poorest countries on earth are in Africa. Nigeria has one of the largest oil reserves on earth and it is STILL one of the poorest countries. That makes no sense. Persian gulf countries run by corrupt Bedouins are better off than Nigeria.