Is atheism a faith? Is agnostism naive/ignorant?

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Between the clashing definitions being given of what constitutes athiest i have now become quite agnostic towards atheism let alone religion.
I think the thread would have been much simpler if the words athiest and agnostic were switched in the title.

It's all a load of boring ol bollocks anyway Mitch. :tongue:

It sounds as if you and Joll think that both sides have comparable merit. But based on the evidence (more of which you await), there is a complete absence of empirical support for the existence of a diety.

I didn't actually say I found each argument equally likely or convincing! I do prefer reality, and things you can pin down with definite proof to show they're actually true.

It's just that in terms of religion/atheism, I haven't been able to conclusively prove that God doesn't exist - nor have I been able to prove to myself convincingly that evolution is correct. So, for the time being I'll just get on with real, day-to-day things, and let the existential stuff work itself out, lol.
 
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It's all a load of boring ol bollocks anyway Mitch. :tongue:

I didn't actually say I found each argument equally likely or convincing! I do prefer reality, and things you can pin down with definite proof to show they're actually true.

It's just that in terms of religion/atheism, I haven't been able to conclusively prove that God doesn't exist - nor have I been able to prove to myself convincingly that evolution is correct. So, for the time being I'll just get on with real, day-to-day things, and let the existential stuff work itself out, lol.

Boring? This is one of the most stimulating threads to come along in ages! It's fascinating and well-argued.

I question whether there is no evidence of a deity or not. The reason I question this is because I have great trouble reconciling the existence of life in the universe. I don't know where it comes from or why it exists. I do not know why collections of self-perpetuating, reproducing, elements powered indirectly by radiation, spend energy on making movies, harvesting pearls, or write poetry. Compared to how everything else works in the universe, life performs the most complex tasks for the most complex reasons which do not seem to have empirical cause and effect. Absolutely nothing in the universe behaves remotely like life. We have even separated the study of life from physics, geology, and chemistry because it bears so little relation to those sciences. With no deity, biology must simply be a branch of chemistry yet chemistry has no answer for why Star Wars is a better movie than Overdrawn At The Memory Bank or what makes The Buddy Holly Song a catchy tune or to what purpose these were created and disseminated.

Science may eventually be able to come to explain these things but right now we're no better than Ogg hearing thunder and deciding it's Thor striking down demons with Mjöllnir. Out of all the order of the universe, life is distinctively disordered, illogical, irrational, with no apparent cause and no apparent effect.
 

Incocknito

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Maybe it would help if you listed the other supernatural beings that you know/believe don't exist.

For example, is there such a thing as Poseidon, god of the sea? Or as Asclepion, god of healing? Or the other god of healing, Imhotep?

And if you do believe that one (true?) God exists then how can you disbelieve in all the other gods, many of which were written about before 'God' was written about.

And that's all there is; writings.

History has no bias. Unlike the extreme bias of people who were born and raised and indoctrinated into a certain religion. Based on the historical evidence, every god that has ever been written about is entirely fictional and imagined.

I will not accept that humans were writing about gods for tens of thousands of years and then as "late" (relatively speaking, with the timer being started in Prehistoric Times) as 2000 years ago they somehow "got it right".

If the choice is between:

"After tens of thousands of years, and after hundreds of gods were written about, suddenly someone wrote about the 'real' one which is somehow different and more believable than all the gods that came before it."

Or

"All deities are just fictional characters which provide(d) supernatural explanations for unknown or feared natural phenomena."

I know which one I would choose.

[/Rant]
 

B_bi_mmf

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Absolutely nothing in the universe behaves remotely like life. We have even separated the study of life from physics, geology, and chemistry because it bears so little relation to those sciences. With no deity, biology must simply be a branch of chemistry yet chemistry has no answer for why Star Wars is a better movie than Overdrawn At The Memory Bank or what makes The Buddy Holly Song a catchy tune or to what purpose these were created and disseminated.

Part of the issue here is some definitional circularity. If something in the universe behaved like life as we know it in certain ways, then we would call it a form of life.

I fail to see how the complexity of life in any way argues for the necessity to invoke a deity. Evolution is the best -- in fact the only -- empirically supported framework (and that support is vast) for understanding the development of biological complexity.

Certainly, there are still some big questions, such as the nature of human consciousness. I look forward to scientific insights into these issues.

I agree, Jason, that this is an interesting thread!
 

crossy

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"When I get all steamed up then I shout, just tip me over and pour me out."

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Lord Bertram Russell and the Vandellas
 

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I question whether there is no evidence of a deity or not. The reason I question this is because I have great trouble reconciling the existence of life in the universe. I don't know where it comes from or why it exists. I do not know why collections of self-perpetuating, reproducing, elements powered indirectly by radiation, spend energy on making movies, harvesting pearls, or write poetry. Compared to how everything else works in the universe, life performs the most complex tasks for the most complex reasons which do not seem to have empirical cause and effect. Absolutely nothing in the universe behaves remotely like life. We have even separated the study of life from physics, geology, and chemistry because it bears so little relation to those sciences. With no deity, biology must simply be a branch of chemistry yet chemistry has no answer for why Star Wars is a better movie than Overdrawn At The Memory Bank or what makes The Buddy Holly Song a catchy tune or to what purpose these were created and disseminated.

Science may eventually be able to come to explain these things but right now we're no better than Ogg hearing thunder and deciding it's Thor striking down demons with Mjöllnir. Out of all the order of the universe, life is distinctively disordered, illogical, irrational, with no apparent cause and no apparent effect.

It seems to me that you are running together at least two different questions. One question is, how does life come into existence in the universe? Or (if you want to be more specific) how did it do so on earth? That is a scientific question. At this point, nobody has any compelling answer to it. Fifty-some years ago, some scientists got as far as synthesizing amino acids from water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen. That was a start. But, so far as I know, nobody has any idea, beyond vague speculation, of how you can get from that to the formation of proteins and nucleic acids. Still, I see no reason to believe that that problem will not eventually be solved. I think that you mean to acknowledge this when you say that "science may eventually be able to explain these things."

But there is another question that I think you are raising, or trying to raise. That question is: why does life come into existence in the universe (or, again, to be more specific, why did it do so on earth)? I do not think that this is a scientific question. But I also doubt whether it is fully intelligible. If you start out with the assumption that the coming-into-being of life is an inherently improbable event, then, relative to that assumption, it may be reasonable to ask "why?" even after you have an account of the "how." That is, even when you have an account of the process by which inorganic matter gives rise to living things, the whole process may have a Rube-Goldberg aspect to it. But the assumption that the genesis of life is an inherently improbable event is at best unwarranted, for two reasons.

First, until we actually have a confirmed and determinate account of the process by which life arises, we have no basis for saying anything about the probability of that process occurring. For us to say, in our present ignorance, that the genesis of life out of the inorganic is "improbable" would be, to use your simile, exactly like Ogg attributing thunder to the acts of Thor. (Note that this is not, however, what you were applying the simile to.)

Second, even if it were to come out that the process by which life emerges is "improbable," in the sense that you could set up the same conditions on a million planets and still not get any life coming into existence on any of them, that would still not mean that its existence on earth required some further explanation. Even though we don't know what proportion of the stars in the universe may have earth-like planets orbiting them, given that there are approximately 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone, and approximately the same number of galaxies in the universe, that makes a lot of laboratories for the genesis of life. Even if only one in a million planets [correction: I meant one planet among a million stars] has the right conditions for life to arise, and the process only occurs in one in a million of those planets, the number of planets on which life arises would be on the order of ten billion (if I've done my math correctly).

Let me wind things up this way: I think it is entirely reasonable -- at least, not unreasonable -- to wonder at the existence of life in the universe. I think that there is indeed something incomprehensible about that fact; but not in the sense that we lack knowledge of its causes (though we do). The existence of life is incomprehensible to us in the sense that, even if we knew everything that there was to be known about how life comes into existence, we would still have difficulty wrapping our minds around the fact that something that is all-or-nothing for us is a mere contingent happenstance in the universe. If somebody finds the word "God" to be the most concise and satisfying expression of his sense of wonder at this fact (and other, equally disturbing facts, such as the contingency of one's own particular existence, the fact that one came into being out of nothing, and the fact that one will eventually cease to exist), I see no objection to such a way of expressing oneself. But when people take God to be some sort of cause that explains what science supposedly "fails" to explain, I think that they are just confusing themselves.
 
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Calboner

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^ well put
Ha ha -- maybe a bit too lengthily put! But thanks. I'm glad someone read it.

I thought of another, more concise way of summing things up (and getting back to the original question): Belief in God is not, I think, inherently superstitious; but when people take it to be an explanation of something, it becomes superstition.

It's like the difference between saying that something "happened by chance," meaning that a bunch of causes and circumstances came together, but no single cause brought about the event, and saying the same thing but meaning that an inscrutable power called Chance brought about the event in question.
 

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At this point, nobody has any compelling answer to it.
That's a rather subjective judgment but, then again, so is everything. :wink:

You reference the Miller-Urey experiments, which showed that naturally occurring organic compounds can 'evolve' from non-organic sources, which essentially 'birthed' the field of abiogenesis (Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), but things have come a long way since then.

I happen to find many interesting hypotheses on abiogenic origins, mainly Panspermia....because it contains the word 'sperm'...




:tongue:
 
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Phil Ayesho

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Thanks Phill, seaside, and everyone else for all the replies, but I wish people would comment on my original post than the title of my thread.

I did respond- I pointed out that comparing atheism and agnosticism is like comparing a bumper sticker to a course of study.

One is a simple statement of position relating to God. The other is an entire school of philosophical thought about the concept of knowledge.

And- BTW- actual Agnostics DO NOT LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN FOR GOD...

Being able to say that I can not prove there isn't a celestial teapot on the far side of the sun is not the same thing as entertaining it as a real possibility.

To an agnostic, ALL discussions of God are hypothetical exercises in reasoning... like discussing the purported powers of superheroes in comic books....

to an agnostic, if there is no evidence of a thing, they DO NOT ENTERTAIN IT as being likely. They do not think of it, really, at all, outside of a pure speculative discussion, as one might discuss the "science" presented in a Sci- Fi film....

Far from being "open minded" Agnostics demand proof.

For example, to an agnostic ANYONE claiming ANY knowledge about God is delusional, or lying. PERIOD.

We do not entertain the idea that Christians "might be right"- in fact, we are absolutely certain they are absolutely wrong.
About everything.

Muslims and Jews and Hindus, too.
 

Phil Ayesho

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The reason I question this is because I have great trouble reconciling the existence of life in the universe. I don't know where it comes from or why it exists. I do not know why collections of self-perpetuating, reproducing, elements powered indirectly by radiation, spend energy on making movies, harvesting pearls, or write poetry.

Ah- but this is the argument from ignorance... NOT KNOWING is where you should have stopped...
The astonishing conceit is to leap from a position of not knowing, to the fantasy that it was all MADE by "someone" pretty much just like us, only capable of making everything.


that is purest invention, you have not one iota of reasoned argument, logic, nor evidence on which to base this invention... the idea that it has merit because LOTS of people have decided to believe it is a spurious argument, because THOSE people simply picked it up from prior people...
And we know for a fact that there was a time...a very long time, before people. Ergo, no WITNESSES to any creation.

There is a pattern to people's claims and beliefs about god... in the less scientific past, when people suffered far worse from the pestilences and vagaries of life, God was universally seen as being vengeful...
As science and reason has improved our lot in life, God has become loving and kind... this is pure selfish projection of our own experience.

As science, and reason and the ability to record events in detail have advanced, the claims of miraculous activity by "god" have proportionally shrunken. From Brimstone and world encompassing floods... shriveled down to amateurish self portraits executed in burned bread and tortillas.

This is precisely the pattern of claims and beliefs that would be predicted by a reality lacking in any god, but rich in people's imagination and willingness to interpret their experience as implying a god.


SAYING I can not disprove that there are invisible flying monkeys does not place the idea of IFMs on a par with the idea that they do not exist.

The one thing we can cay with 100% certainty is that ALL things that DO NOT EXIST, leave no evidence of their existence.

There is nothing wrong with a "mystery"... with an unknown...

What makes no sense at all is to invent something ridiculous and unprovable, just to fill the blank spot with 'something".
 

Drifterwood

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Ah- but this is the argument from ignorance... NOT KNOWING is where you should have stopped...
The astonishing conceit is to leap from a position of not knowing, to the fantasy that it was all MADE by "someone" pretty much just like us, only capable of making everything.

I have to agree with Phil on this Jason. Understanding based upon an understanding does not equal universal truth, but rather relative truth. We may be no nearer to the latter than any other creature on earth, so beyond us might be the reality. We are indeed intellectually conceited.

This might be the position of an agnostic, whereas an atheist may say that the whole question of "God" is a man made cul de sac and not the correct question in the first place. Therefore ignore it and move on.
 

mitchymo

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I did respond- I pointed out that comparing atheism and agnosticism is like comparing a bumper sticker to a course of study.

One is a simple statement of position relating to God. The other is an entire school of philosophical thought about the concept of knowledge.

And- BTW- actual Agnostics DO NOT LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN FOR GOD...

Being able to say that I can not prove there isn't a celestial teapot on the far side of the sun is not the same thing as entertaining it as a real possibility.

To an agnostic, ALL discussions of God are hypothetical exercises in reasoning... like discussing the purported powers of superheroes in comic books....

to an agnostic, if there is no evidence of a thing, they DO NOT ENTERTAIN IT as being likely. They do not think of it, really, at all, outside of a pure speculative discussion, as one might discuss the "science" presented in a Sci- Fi film....

Far from being "open minded" Agnostics demand proof.

For example, to an agnostic ANYONE claiming ANY knowledge about God is delusional, or lying. PERIOD.

We do not entertain the idea that Christians "might be right"- in fact, we are absolutely certain they are absolutely wrong.
About everything.

Muslims and Jews and Hindus, too.

Summed up my position PERFECTLY! well said!

The term agnostic however is used to encompass a much broader range of ideals if you research and the (textbook explanations) will insist that open-mindedness belongs in the agnostic box and even true ignorant people (babies and mentally disabled for example) who have never had a thought belong also in the agnostic box.
 
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galaxus

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I did respond- I pointed out that comparing atheism and agnosticism is like comparing a bumper sticker to a course of study.

One is a simple statement of position relating to God. The other is an entire school of philosophical thought about the concept of knowledge.

And- BTW- actual Agnostics DO NOT LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN FOR GOD...

Being able to say that I can not prove there isn't a celestial teapot on the far side of the sun is not the same thing as entertaining it as a real possibility.

To an agnostic, ALL discussions of God are hypothetical exercises in reasoning... like discussing the purported powers of superheroes in comic books....

to an agnostic, if there is no evidence of a thing, they DO NOT ENTERTAIN IT as being likely. They do not think of it, really, at all, outside of a pure speculative discussion, as one might discuss the "science" presented in a Sci- Fi film....

Far from being "open minded" Agnostics demand proof.

For example, to an agnostic ANYONE claiming ANY knowledge about God is delusional, or lying. PERIOD.

We do not entertain the idea that Christians "might be right"- in fact, we are absolutely certain they are absolutely wrong.
About everything.

Muslims and Jews and Hindus, too.

I guess I really didn't understand agnosticism and atheism in the first place. Maybe thats why I think people are focusing on the title of my thread than the original post.

So atheists are a part of agnosticism? Is it more correct to say you're (not you personally, but you can answer if you want) an atheist or an agnostic?
 
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