Is atheism a faith? Is agnostism naive/ignorant?

[2322]

I am not sure that is the assumption of science.... Science is only claiming that phenomenal world can be subjected to tests to verify the validity of experience, and the predictability of conclusions.

Science makes no claims about what can not be perceived.

However... I must concur on one level... Science is the fundamental tenet that all events proceed from causes... that reality is causal in nature.

And yet the application of science to cosmology has resulted in big bang theory, which has at its core the idea of the singularity... that there was a FIRST cause that had NO cause.

It is interesting how most scientist do not really comprehend that they are predicating their conclusion about an event they state had no cause, upon the foundation that ALL events must have cause.

They do not see that this is a paradox.

At present, IF reality must be causal, and IF the Big Bang is an accurate picture of the origin of the universe... THEN there MUST be a prior/higher realm of reality which could have acted as the cause of the big bang.

In essence, if valid, Big Bang theory REQUIRES a 'supernatural' world- one outside of our own that could act as a cause...
( not that that implies that there is anything divine nor magical about such a world )

Because if the singularity truly has no cause, then reality is not necessarily causal, and the foundation of science, and the conclusions that lead to big bang theory are suspect.

Kind of like how Zeno proved there can be no infinity.


So, yes, there is certainly a limit to what science can actually address...

But religion, without need for verification, can just make any shit up about anything.

I think scientists are happy to acknowledge that while there is no known cause for the Big Bang, that a cause exists and may be discoverable at some point in the future. Perhaps we'll find an answer that works some day. If scientists truly believe there was no cause, then nobody would be searching for an answer.

I suspect that you're right about causality. I tend to believe that reality is subjective to at least some extent. The whole particle/wave thing made me realize I wasn't losing my mind and that all I've heard from some of the wisest people I know just might be true. If it is true, then for all humanity has accomplished, we're just barely out of the cave.

I would have loved living in classical Athens. What an assemblage of exceptional minds! What, and how, their culture did to inspire such a level of intellectual inquiry still mystifies me.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I would have loved living in classical Athens. What an assemblage of exceptional minds! What, and how, their culture did to inspire such a level of intellectual inquiry still mystifies me.

Jason, you are already there...
the Agora in Athens was exactly like LPSG...

right down to all the homo stuff.

 

[dolfette]

'course the greeks prefered teeny peepees.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

its because of all the clenching...
they were really big on clenching...

 

[Calboner]

'course the greeks prefered teeny peepees.

So you've read The Clouds?

'Course, they didn't believe in the Big Bang, either.

 

[2322]

So you've read The Clouds?

'Course, they didn't believe in the Big Bang, either.

Could you imagine The Clouds being performed in Epidaurus? I would love to see that! Nothing like resurrecting ghosts to experience the past.

 

[Calboner]

Could you imagine The Clouds being performed in Epidaurus? I would love to see that! Nothing like resurrecting ghosts to experience the past.

What do you mean, Epidaurus? I thought that was an injection that women get when they're giving birth.

 

[superbot]

Athiests and agnostics are INSUFFERABLE in their their conceit.The very thing they have always accused those 'with a belief' of being they have become themselves.Haven't they yet learnt that no one gives a flying f**k about what you believe or don't believe,just don't burden the rest of the world with your 'holier than thou attitude.It's nothing to be proud of to have NO spirituality!!!!....

 

[Calboner]

Athiests and agnostics are INSUFFERABLE in their their conceit.The very thing they have always accused those 'with a belief' of being they have become themselves.Haven't they yet learnt that no one gives a flying f**k about what you believe or don't believe,just don't burden the rest of the world with your 'holier than thou attitude.It's nothing to be proud of to have NO spirituality!!!!....

It appears, Superbot, not only that you don't give a flying fuck about what atheists (not "athiests") or agnostics believe, but that you don't give a flying fuck about evidence for or against your own beliefs, either.

If "spirituality" means "believing things in disregard of evidence" (which is not what I think it means, but it seems to be what your post represents), then, while I don't think that the lack of it is something to be proud of, I certainly think that the possession of it is something to be ashamed of.

 

[deleted213967]

Athiests and agnostics are INSUFFERABLE in their their conceit.The very thing they have always accused those 'with a belief' of being they have become themselves.Haven't they yet learnt that no one gives a flying f**k about what you believe or don't believe,just don't burden the rest of the world with your 'holier than thou attitude.It's nothing to be proud of to have NO spirituality!!!!....

Well, at least most of them can spell "atheist" but I am sure it was your "spirituality" writing...

So you believe in belief? What if my belief and your belief are mutually exclusive and my deity asks me to kill you, while your deity asks you to kill me?

Can we call it a (hog)wash?

 

[dolfette]

Athiests and agnostics are INSUFFERABLE in their their conceit.The very thing they have always accused those 'with a belief' of being they have become themselves.Haven't they yet learnt that no one gives a flying f**k about what you believe or don't believe,just don't burden the rest of the world with your 'holier than thou attitude.It's nothing to be proud of to have NO spirituality!!!!....

things i've never done.

knocked on people's doors, spreading the non-word of my not-god.
handed out atheist pamphlets.
preached the non-word of my not-god in the street.
expected people to un-pray at my table.
used the non-word of my not-god to argue politics/morality/education/environmentalism.
expect others to live by the rules of my unfaith.

personally i don't think lack of faith is something to be proud of.
nor is having faith.

i have no interest in converting anyone.
i have no interest in bullying people out of their beliefs.
i have no interest in belittling people for believing things i do not.
i'm even respectful of those who politely invite me to hear about their faith or join their group...their hearts are in the right place.

i DO however get rabidly pissed off that this respect is so seldom returned in kind.

 

[superbot]

things i've never done.

knocked on people's doors, spreading the non-word of my not-god.
handed out atheist pamphlets.
preached the non-word of my not-god in the street.
expected people to un-pray at my table.
used the non-word of my not-god to argue politics/morality/education/environmentalism.
expect others to live by the rules of my unfaith.

personally i don't think lack of faith is something to be proud of.
nor is having faith.

i have no interest in converting anyone.
i have no interest in bullying people out of their beliefs.
i have no interest in belittling people for believing things i do not.
i'm even respectful of those who politely invite me to hear about their faith or join their group...their hearts are in the right place.

i DO however get rabidly pissed off that this respect is so seldom returned in kind.

Neither have I done any of things ,nor anyone I know.Your prejudice,however, is done beautifully and and brilliantly underlines my point......I think the new name for it is 'The tyranny of agnostism'....

 

[superbot]

Well, at least most of them can spell "atheist" but I am sure it was your "spirituality" writing...

So you believe in belief? What if my belief and your belief are mutually exclusive and my deity asks me to kill you, while your deity asks you to kill me?

Can we call it a (hog)wash?

Not one word of that do I understand.You need to formulate you sentences before lecturing others about spelling....

 

[deleted213967]

Not one word of that do I understand.You need to formulate you sentences before lecturing others about spelling....

Beati pauperi spiritu?

 

[Calboner]

Not one word of that do I understand.

Behold Superbot: intelligent discourse bounces off the impenetrable enclosure of his brain!

You need to formulate you sentences before lecturing others about spelling....

You heard the man: formulate you sentences, Domisoldo!

You atheists and agnostics with your correct grammar and spelling are INSUFFERABLE! Then, to make matters worse, you commit LOGIC!

 

[dolfette]

Neither have I done any of things ,nor anyone I know.Your prejudice,however, is done beautifully and and brilliantly underlines my point......I think the new name for it is 'The tyranny of agnostism'....

which was my point.
generalisations: you think yours of what athiests are like are ok, but they offend you when turned back upon you by others.

do unto others, toots.
as you would have them do unto you? well i just did. and you didn't like it one little bit.

 

[Zeuhl34]

Athiests and agnostics are INSUFFERABLE in their their conceit.The very thing they have always accused those 'with a belief' of being they have become themselves.Haven't they yet learnt that no one gives a flying f**k about what you believe or don't believe,just don't burden the rest of the world with your 'holier than thou attitude.It's nothing to be proud of to have NO spirituality!!!!....

No. Most atheists and agnostics don't comment on the issue of religion or beliefs unless someone else brings it up. Even then, it's more specifically antitheists that get preachy. I'm agnostic myself and generally don't much like the preachy ones. Furthermore, I'd say the religious have a lot further to go in terms of not burdening others with their beliefs.

 

[deleted213967]

No. Most atheists and agnostics don't comment on the issue of religion or beliefs unless someone else brings it up. Even then, it's more specifically antitheists that get preachy. I'm agnostic myself and generally don't much like the preachy ones. Furthermore, I'd say the religious have a lot further to go in terms of not burdening others with their beliefs.

I'll have what you're having, including the well-hung thing...

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Athiests and agnostics are INSUFFERABLE in their their conceit.The very thing they have always accused those 'with a belief' of being they have become themselves.Haven't they yet learnt that no one gives a flying f**k about what you believe or don't believe,just don't burden the rest of the world with your 'holier than thou attitude.It's nothing to be proud of to have NO spirituality!!!!....

wow- what a hypocrite you are...

And how ironic that you use the term 'holier than thou' to condemn a group whose main tenet is that NO ONE is holier than anyone else.

And , sorry, but YEAH, it IS something to be proud of that I am NOT suffering under some delusion of how special I am , NOT believing in malarky because I am scared to die, and NOT playing make believe with my imaginary friend.

Being rational about the world IS something to be proud of... and if you thought about it it you would realize that the products of rational thinking, like your refrigerator and your computer, and your cell phone... are far more miraculous and deserving of awe than some magical sky daddy who all powerful, yet can not even draw a decent likeness of his own son or mother.

Folks who believe in delusions of deities OUGHT to be as embarrassed as a teenager would be to admit they still believed in the tooth fairy.

 

[superbot]

wow- what a hypocrite you are...

And how ironic that you use the term 'holier than thou' to condemn a group whose main tenet is that NO ONE is holier than anyone else.

And , sorry, but YEAH, it IS something to be proud of that I am NOT suffering under some delusion of how special I am , NOT believing in malarky because I am scared to die, and NOT playing make believe with my imaginary friend.

Being rational about the world IS something to be proud of... and if you thought about it it you would realize that the products of rational thinking, like your refrigerator and your computer, and your cell phone... are far more miraculous and deserving of awe than some magical sky daddy who all powerful, yet can not even draw a decent likeness of his own son or mother.

Folks who believe in delusions of deities OUGHT to be as embarrassed as a teenager would be to admit they still believed in the tooth fairy.

Your comments are SO profound it takes my breath away (that's irony by the way!,well sarcasm if the truth be told).I don't think they are going to shake to the foundations the hundreds of millions of people who believe in a god.Try and come up with something that isn't cliche'ed and defensive to the point of childish insults!....