Is Charlie Sheen crazy or just informed.

JustAsking

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I think there are two naive conceits here in this 9/11 Truth conspiracy movement. All of them are so tragically pathetic that it pains me to think what we are headed for as a nation. The pain comes from the fact that 9/11 conspiracy people are not just a handful of wackaloons, but that they represent such a large cross section of the American population. Such a disconnect from reality is frightfully dangerous in a nation that is supposed to be governed by its electorate.

The first conceit is government competence. This is the conceit that our government is something more than a bunch of mediocre bunch of guys who come to the trough and gorge themselves on the best that capitalism has to offer while rigging the system to perpetuate that. This may sound cynical, but it is happening every day right in front of our eyes.

If you are to believe that these people are competent enough to mastermind the kind of 9/11 event that people are proposing then you have to explain everything else that is happening in the country by the same set of dynamics.

In other words, you have to believe that the people who could mastermind controlling the entire national air traffic control grid, enlisting all the branches of the military, fly real planes by remote control into buildings or use holographic images, plant strategic charges in a heavily used office building, fly missiles into the Pentagon and drop airplane parts on the scene from a C130, all without detection or any leaks from those involved are the same people who destroyed FEMA, appoint incompetents like Michael Brown, invade a middle eastern country with absolutely no planning, and stand mute and powerless in the aftermath of something like hurrican Katrina.

You have to explain why these criminal masterminds were out-planned by Walmart and Anderson Cooper who all managed to be on the scene in the middle of hurrican Katrina, bringing truckloads of aid into the area or simply reporting on the facts on the ground that the government was unable to discern. You have to wrap your mind around why these criminal masterminds judged Michael Brown to be doing "a heck of a job". You also have to reconcile the fact that this amazingly competent set of criminal masterminds have somehow managed to maneuver themselves into being the least popular administration since no one knows when. Having destroyed the economy, condoned abhorrent principles of torture and pre-emptive war, destroyed America's standing around the world at a time when world cooperation is most needed, you have to somehow figure that if these guys are so competent, is this part of their evil master plan?

So this is the first conceit. It is the conceit that the government is competent or even mediocre.
 

Deno

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I would say the more controversial a topic you propose, the more harsh the responses will be.

Whether you like or trust the US Government or not, whether you like or trust George W. Bush or not, whether you like or trust americans or not, whether you think all the above are stupid, or morons or whatever, what exactly do you expect, when you throw out clearly refuted absurd theories, stating that in a massive conspiracy involving what would have to amount to nearly hundreds of complicit people across a vast array of agencies, departments, sciences, disciplines, military branches, political hierarchies' inner circles, the US government leadership elements, including the president of the United States, who everyone thinks is a total moron, his father, a former president, his entire inner circle, the heads of the CIA, NSA, FAA, FBI, Special Forces, Air Force, NTSB, to every one needed to pull something so massive off, to kill 3000 + Americans on Global TV using 4 airplanes, demolition crews, Global HAwks (posing as a missile to hit the pentagon) clean up crews, investigators from a dozen federal and state agencies each, and countless thousands more is frankly the most absurd and insulting proposition you could make to AMericans...and to anyone with a brain from overseas....

and you expect to throw around this schlock and people not to react harshly?

The burden of proof is on you and the "truth seekers"...and you have provided nothing.

Get over it. This is not harsh or mean....this is a fact.

If you want to believe a conspiracy with virtually no proof at all, other than rantings, that is your position...but don't blame the rest of us for demanding that you prove it, and being angry when you cannot do it.

Both my parents are liberals...both hate George W. Bush and his administration...both however are smart enough to know that this was not engineered by our government.


The whole plot is totally absurd...a sitting US president, son of a former president, (who was patriotic enough to fly fighter planes off aircraft carriers in WW2) and his entire administration, risking not just jail, and historical shame, but the DEATH penalty...for attempting to murder tens ouf thousands of american citizens in the heart of downtown Manhattan, at the Pentagon, and to destroy either the White House or Congress...

it is the craziest thing you could possibly imagine when you look at the totality of the conspiracy you expect we should believe in.

it is absurd.

That is not being harsh...that is the reality.
\

I didn't throw out anything I only asked if people believe or don't believe in its possiblity, I may have asked it in a somewhat odd way including Charlie Sheen in the title but that should not cause people to respond like the way you just did. And I didn't push any information for anyone to believe in. I didn't compose one webpage that anyone refers to so don't attack me. After all I was JustAsking.
 

Flashy

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I think there are two naive conceits here in this 9/11 Truth conspiracy movement. All of them are so tragically pathetic that it pains me to think what we are headed for as a nation. The pain comes from the fact that 9/11 conspiracy people are not just a handful of wackaloons, but that they represent such a large cross section of the American population. Such a disconnect from reality is frightfully dangerous in a nation that is supposed to be governed by its electorate.

The first conceit is government competence. This is the conceit that our government is something more than a bunch of mediocre bunch of guys who come to the trough and gorge themselves on the best that capitalism has to offer while rigging the system to perpetuate that. This may sound cynical, but it is happening every day right in front of our eyes.

If you are to believe that these people are competent enough to mastermind the kind of 9/11 event that people are proposing then you have to explain everything else that is happening in the country by the same set of dynamics.

In other words, you have to believe that the people who could mastermind controlling the entire national air traffic control grid, enlisting all the branches of the military, fly real planes by remote control into buildings or use holographic images, plant strategic charges in a heavily used office building, fly missiles into the Pentagon and drop airplane parts on the scene from a C130, all without detection or any leaks from those involved are the same people who destroyed FEMA, appoint incompetents like Michael Brown, invade a middle eastern country with absolutely no planning, and stand mute and powerless in the aftermath of something like hurrican Katrina.

You have to explain why these criminal masterminds were out-planned by Walmart and Anderson Cooper who all managed to be on the scene in the middle of hurrican Katrina, bringing truckloads of aid into the area or simply reporting on the facts on the ground that the government was unable to discern. You have to wrap your mind around why these criminal masterminds judged Michael Brown to be doing "a heck of a job". You also have to reconcile the fact that this amazingly competent set of criminal masterminds have somehow managed to maneuver themselves into being the least popular administration since no one knows when. Having destroyed the economy, condoned abhorrent principles of torture and pre-emptive war, destroyed America's standing around the world at a time when world cooperation is most needed, you have to somehow figure that if these guys are so competent, is this part of their evil master plan?

So this is the first conceit. It is the conceit that the government is competent or even mediocre.


perfectly stated.

The government can barely even deliver mail. Cannot balance the budget, cannot agree on anything...but give them the most massively complex conspiracy in the history of the world and they will nail it right on the money without any glitches.
 

Flashy

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\

I didn't throw out anything I only asked if people believe or don't believe in its possiblity, I may have asked it in a somewhat odd way including Charlie Sheen in the title but that should not cause people to respond like the way you just did. And I didn't push any information for anyone to believe in. I didn't compose one webpage that anyone refers to so don't attack me. After all I was JustAsking.

and what exactly is the problem with how i responded? You were bleating about people that were mean and harsh, and i responded to you with the exact truth and the facts of the topic based on what you requested. Where is the harshness?

If you start something like this, and people react badly and harshly to you, and you say you don't like that, than someone responds non-harshly to tell you why people are responding to you like that, you then say "don't attack me"...well why on earth would you start a thread on an emotional topic like this, and expect it to be non harsh? Why also do you expect when people respond to you in a non-harsh, reasonable yet firm manner, you should say you are "being attacked".

apparently, anyone who states the truth here now, in any way, is "attacking you" or "being harsh".

Also, when you propose that Charlie Sheen somehow is involved in the matter, you make it look even more absurd than it already is.
 

JustAsking

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The next conceit is even more disturbing because it is a conceit that I wish were true. This is the conceit that says that such complicated plotting and schema such as the proposed 9/11 conspiracy is necessary to outwit the American public and the media to manipulate them into believing something that is untrue. This conceit holds that the American people are ever vigilant and know what is really goiing on in our government and around the world. This conceit holds that a conspiracy of monstrous proportions is necessary to deceive the electorate.

The sad truth is that there is a big government conspiracy going on, but it is not the one that 9/11 truthers think is going on. The conspiracy I am talking about is the subversion of a democratic system by a bunch of money grubbing conmen into being the simple backdrop for widespread and uncontrolled corporate interest.

These days, legislation is made by a handful of people who meet after hours and hammer out stuff that has very little to do with the welfare of the American citizens and has much more to do with their own self-interest and the interest of their patrons. If you think most legislation is created by democratic voting during the daily sessions think again. Have you ever wondered why CSPAN doesn't pan their cameras into the seating gallery during those speeches? No, the daily sessions mostly serve to rename post offices and other unimportant stuff like that.

The amazing and frightfully depressing thing is that this is not some Star Chamber group of puppet masters working behind the scenes, but the simple in-plain-sight workings of daily lilfe in Washington.

The irony of the conceit that the government has to mastermind some complicated plot to deceive the public is laughable given the fact that the public is so uninformed and so apathetic that they are no more concerned with simple corruption than someone in a shopping mall is when a car alarm goes off.

Just one example. In the aftermath of Katrina, when the government seemed to do nothing for New Orleans, they did manage to pass some emergency legislation and make a big deal out of it. In plain view of the comatose American public, they passed a Domestic Refineries bill which they told the American public was necessary because the damage to some of the Gulf refineries would need to be mitigated by some financial breaks and regulatory breaks to the oil companies.

Why is this a problem? Well little does the public know that there has not been a new refinery built in America since 1976. Why? Because oil companies view refineries as a cost center, not a profit center. They are a necessary evil in the process of finding oil and selling it to someone. And, with full knowledge of the laws of supply and demand, oil companies figured out after the gas crisis in the mid 70s that limiting the supply of gasoline will keep the price high. How much more gas do we consume now than we did in 1976? No new refineries? WTF?

So you might ask why then is a domestic refineries bill such a boon to oil companies. Well this the pathetic thing about the American electorate. While they are being conned out of fear for their ability to put gas in their cars and thinking that this bill makes sense, they are totally oblivious to the fact that the real intent of the bill is to lift all kinds of environmental constraints on oil production and refinery operation. In other words, while the oil companies are manipulating gas prices by restiicting the supply, our legislators are bailing them out by lifting all kinds of regulations.

Finally, the public was further duped (if they were paying attention at all) by a provision in the bill that penalized any profiteering by high gas prices in the aftermath of Katrina. That sounds great, doesn't it? But they forgot to tell us that the penalties only applied to the distributors of oil and gas and those that operated gas stations. The oil companies were exempt.

This is an example of what happens almost daily in Washington and the America people are totally clueless about it. The conceit that the America public's powerful vigilance needs to be masterminded by evil and complex plots is completely laughable.

Here is the real truth about how easy it is to manipulate the public and it doesn't take any more than the mediocre goons in our government to pull it off.

1) The terrorists hate us for our freedom and our way of life.
2) Iraq is a clear and present danger because they have WMDs.
3) There is a definite link between Al Quaeda and Iraq.
4) They will greet us as liberators.

and so on. Consider if you will that we are so easily duped as a nation that those of us who are standing in unemployment lines because our jobs were shipped overseas will readily believe a line of bullshit about how free market capitalism and government deregulation is the answer to all our economic woes.

And during the runup to an election where there is a danger that someone might be paying attention to the record of our government's achievements, we are easily diverted by ridiculous issues like gay marriage, abortion, and creationism to be taught in our schools. What rubes we are!!!! It doesn't require criminal masterminds to dupe the American public because the American public is not paying attention at all.

So what is easier? Calling a few fundamentalist pastors and having them lull their unemployed flock into believing that going to war is Christian and that voting away your jobs in the name of fighting "big government regulation" is a good thing? Or engineering the most complex conspiracy ever known to man, involving thousands of citizens in all walks of life and hoping no one will find out?

You do the math.
 

Flashy

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You do the math.

what was the question? :wink:

Good post...which explains quite clearly why i do not vote Republican or Democrat.

Even more sad is that if this was the last 18th century, the slightest tax from England would galvanize a nation that had no phones or TV's to communicate the news...

now with all that access to info, everyone just twiddles their thumbs while the government and its apathetic citizenry ruin this country.
 

1BiGG1

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I think there are two naive conceits here in this 9/11 Truth conspiracy movement. All of them are so tragically pathetic that it pains me to think what we are headed for as a nation. The pain comes from the fact that 9/11 conspiracy people are not just a handful of wackaloons, but that they represent such a large cross section of the American population. Such a disconnect from reality is frightfully dangerous in a nation that is supposed to be governed by its electorate.....

..........

I often wonder where we are headed as a nation also when we have spin masters such as Al Gore and ultimate in fraud Michael Moore held up in icon status when they aredeceitful crooks selling today’s snake oil at best.

We see much of the same here and other forums, just throw out any ol’ conspiracy theory or other line of crap and those famous for ingesting snake oil will gobble it up like hungry dogs given free access to the littler box.

Maybe they should add a fourth R to the three R’s i.e. Reading, Writing, Arithmetic and Rational Thinking
 

JustAsking

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what was the question? :wink:

Good post...which explains quite clearly why i do not vote Republican or Democrat.

Even more sad is that if this was the last 18th century, the slightest tax from England would galvanize a nation that had no phones or TV's to communicate the news...

now with all that access to info, everyone just twiddles their thumbs while the government and its apathetic citizenry ruin this country.

Damn straight!

This conspiracy crap is the symptom of a country full of people who have lost hope of regaining control of their government. Instead of mobilizing and taking it back, they persist in the comforting but false notion that our government is competent in something besides serving their corporate patrons. The conspiriacy stuff is a symptom of a delusional pathology. Its easier to obsess about a fantasy villain than go in there, kick butt, and set things right.

The 9/11 truth movement and its alarming popularity is the sign of a great disconnect of the American electorate from the reality of its govenment. The disturbing thing is that when the electorate is this disconnected, the self-correcting nature of a democracy fails.

The press used to be called The Fourth Estate, since it was supposed to fill its role as the conscious of a Constitutionally driven nation. Now that journalism is indistinguishable from entertainment, we have lost that self-correcting mechanism as well. Now TV news is nothing more than soap opera and the political equivalent of American Gladiators.
 

JustAsking

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I often wonder where we are headed as a nation also when we have spin masters such as Al Gore and ultimate in fraud Michael Moore held up in icon status when they aredeceitful crooks selling today’s snake oil at best.

We see much of the same here and other forums, just throw out any ol’ conspiracy theory or other line of crap and those famous for ingesting snake oil will gobble it up like hungry dogs given free access to the littler box.

Maybe they should add a fourth R to the three R’s i.e. Reading, Writing, Arithmetic and Rational Thinking


Bigg, I don't admire many Democrats either. And neither do I like the sensationalism and polarizing effect that Michael Moore has with his movies.

But the idea that Al Gore is "spinning" his message about AGW, is just another conspiracy theory gone awry. It is the conspiracy that says that some 2200 scientists all around the world, from all walks of live, from all different political and religious persuasions who contributed to the IPCC reports have formed some unholy alliance with Al Gore and Ted Kennedy to sell out their scientific souls for the sake of some cheezy American liberal agenda.
 

WolvesInTheThroneRoom

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For one TarzanKing I don't bother reading longwinded posts, I don't feel it's necessary to elaborate at such an extreme.

and thats EXACTLY why you and a few others keep pointing out ridiculous notions that have been explained time and again, this is EXACTLY the kind of logic that enables conspiratorial worldviews.
I don't mind arguing with people like you though, makes it easier.
 

Deno

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and I suppose you think you know me to say people like you. In your post you kept saying you you you. And of all the people responding to this thread I have said the least. You You You is pointing the finger at me like I invented this shit.
 

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Bigg, I don't admire many Democrats either. And neither do I like the sensationalism and polarizing effect that Michael Moore has with his movies.

But the idea that Al Gore is "spinning" his message about AGW, is just another conspiracy theory gone awry. It is the conspiracy that says that some 2200 scientists all around the world, from all walks of live, from all different political and religious persuasions who contributed to the IPCC reports have formed some unholy alliance with Al Gore and Ted Kennedy to sell out their scientific souls for the sake of some cheezy American liberal agenda.

I hate to say this, but 1BIGG1 was banned too early. I would have loved to have witnessed this exchange.
 

jason_els

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Banned? Shoot, I wanted to see his response, too. I was just breaking out the tin-foil hats and everything.

I don't know about tinfoil hats. Conspiracies on a grand scale do happen. The Reichstag fire, Lusitania, even the Manhattan Project were all grand scale conspiracies in that many people participated and largely kept their mouths shut. Again, I don't dismiss the possibility of 9/11 being arranged largely because it was precisely the catalyst that PNAC itself had said was necessary and desirable to implement their plans. We'd be wrong not to at least question, what appears to be, an extraordinarily unique coincidence.

I don't believe the WTC had charges loaded into it.

I am not convinced that Bush and his PNAC pals did not arrange for this to happen.
 

JustAsking

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I don't know about tinfoil hats. Conspiracies on a grand scale do happen. The Reichstag fire, Lusitania, even the Manhattan Project were all grand scale conspiracies in that many people participated and largely kept their mouths shut. Again, I don't dismiss the possibility of 9/11 being arranged largely because it was precisely the catalyst that PNAC itself had said was necessary and desirable to implement their plans. We'd be wrong not to at least question, what appears to be, an extraordinarily unique coincidence.

I don't believe the WTC had charges loaded into it.

I am not convinced that Bush and his PNAC pals did not arrange for this to happen.

You mean the coincidence that the PNAC are such masterminds they announce their plans in advance?

Also, are we to believe that after this genius of a mastermind conspiracy, that the majority of the hijackers will be identified as Saudi citizens (when the Bush family has a long history of doing business with the Saudis), and that it would be topped off with a stunningly innane bait and switch where the American public will forget about Bin Laden and somehow think that the only secular government in the middle east was responsible for 9/11.

No, Jason, any populous that would fall for that ridiculous con does not need criminal masterminds to dupe it. And anyone who would propose such a ridiculous thing and then turn it into the world's most embarassing cluster fuck can not possibly be considered candidates for masterminded criminals.

This is just a mediocre and incompetent administration easily duping a comatose electorate.
 
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jason_els

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You mean the coincidence that the PNAC are such masterminds they announce their plans in advance?

Aren't you the same man who just recently railed at the government for committing all kinds of crimes against the democratic system in, "plain sight," knowing full well Americans are too lazy or illiterate to know or care?
 

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Controlled demos cut the columns at the BASE, where the load is greatest... and fracture key columns higher up to affect the manner in which gravity affects the falling structure.

WTC 1 and 2 collapsed from the top down... this has NEVER been done in any controlled demo, and, prior to 9/11, no demo company would have the slightest idea how to accomplish this effect.
Yeah well at the base of ground zero there are pictures of columns that look like they were cut. I couldn't find any sources from mainstream media. Sorry. I know that we aren't allowed to trust anything unless it is neatly packaged by corporate news. And I also know that one of you linked some shit that directly disputes what I am putting here...but like I said before, the explanations of why these buildings all collapsed seems overly complicated. Like some very educated people trying to make up a reason.

Isn't it a little strange that the two towers collapsed in the same way?


Diagonally Cut Beam : IMC Worcester

I don't know how to explain the second part of what you say....but if fireworks companies can make fireworks that explode to look like planets and hot dogs and shit, I am pretty sure there are ways to accomplish the collapse of the building from the top.


YouTube - World Trade Center Attacks

It looks like it actually collpased from the point where the planes made contact.

Maybe there were explosives planted where the planes crashed, maybe the planes were mere triggers meant to throw us all off...
which means if it was a controlled demo those pilots would have had to have been much better than the conspiracy theorists suggest.

It is just so strange that both towers completely collapsed in almost the same fashion. I would think collapsing a skyscraper with an airplane would be something like hitting a ball out of Dodger Stadium...unlikely

I can't find many videos of controlled demo.

Here's one:

YouTube - Controlled Group blast Hilton Hotel Dubai

It DOES fall different from the WTC, but you also have to consider that nothing as big as the WTC has ever been demolished in a day.

I don't doubt that terrorists are behind 9/11...I am just questioning who and what may have been working alongside the terrorists.
Halliburton?

And what would there be to gain by staging an enormous terrorist attack?

Mobilization for the population to accept deep losses of freedom

Patriot Act

And a New world order that will result in the dissolution of America as we know it as we assimilate into world government

I dunno the name...but technically Bush signed a document that has made the US, Mexico and Canada one country

These are big changes in a time when the people in power realize people are angry...terrorists...again

How do you get peopel to go along with it...maybe kill 2000 peopel and make the majority of the third world seem like a threat.

One thing does make me lean towards NOT conspiracy: the fact that I can still talk about this and not get taken away.
 
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JustAsking

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Aren't you the same man who just recently railed at the government for committing all kinds of crimes against the democratic system in, "plain sight," knowing full well Americans are too lazy or illiterate to know or care?
Haha, you are too fast for me, Jason.

But hey, would you possibly be referring to the PNAC paper published in September 2000, called "Rebuilding America's Defenses"? You know, the one that recommends the following:

1) Reducing the size of the National Guard.
2) Reducing or eliminating spending on aircraft carrier programs.
3) Reduscing or eliminating spending on the Joint Strike Fighter.
4) Instituting a global missile defense system (heavily emphasized in the paper).

Does this sound like a plan to fight terrorists in the streets of Baghdad? In fact every aspect of the "Rebuilding" plan was scuttled because of the events of 9/11.

In fact, the actual passage, taken out of context is more like, "Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformationas as much as the requirements of current missions." This is a decades long plan to redesign the military, not a plan looking for a "Pearl Harbor".

Furthermore, the document describes the middle east as a region that does not need much security saying such things as "Kuwait itself is strongly defended." and "With a minor increase in strength,more permanent basing arrangements, and continued 'no fly' and 'no drive' zones enforcement, the danger of a repeat short warning Iraqui invasion... would be significantly reduced."

It further states that "With substantial permanent Army ground presence in Kuwait the demands for increased Marine presence in the Gulf could be scaled back as well."

So are you proposing that this is some kind of smoking gun? If so, I am definitely breaking out the tinfoil hats.