Is Edward Snowden a Traitor or a Hero?

[SAFRAN82]

Heros bravo

 

[deleted15807]

He has, hasn't he?

The word would be defection rather than quitting.

Disingenuous is the word to describe your entire post.

The law is the law and an oath is an oath. He choose to break both and then flee.

And please banishment to a foreign country the equivalent as prison? That is utterly laughable. The prisons would be empty if the choice were actual prison or banishment to Rome or London were on the table.

@sargon
You really should rethink how you interpretate mr king - he used the example of "going to jail" to explain, that, even if you get judged as guilty you dont have to be guilty.

No I got it right the first time. It's you who do not want to 'get it'. You and Dandelion have an underpinning belief that prevents both from ever getting it.

As for PRISM I couldn't give a fuck about it. Sorry with polar ice caps melting, deforestation, habitat loss, the rampaging of the planet thanks to capitalism and greed all accelerating. I could care less what the NSA does. If you want privacy go live like bin Laden did. It's the only guaranteed way.

 

[Perados]

As for PRISM I couldn't give a fuck about it. Sorry with polar ice caps melting, deforestation, habitat loss, the rampaging of the planet thanks to capitalism and greed all accelerating. I could care less what the NSA does.

nice to hear that you care at least for something

If you want privacy go live like bin Laden did. It's the only guaranteed way.[/FONT]

and there you got it...
1. The goverment force me to change my live, if i want a minimum of privace. What has this to do with freedom? Nothing, its the opposite

2. Even if i would choose to live like bin laden, it wouldnt guaranty any privace. To leave the system or to use coding technology, to protect my privace would make me even more suspicious for the NSA. Even more they would try to know everything about me.

AND THIS IS JUST WRONG - if i did something wrong, they should start to investigate. As long as i follow the law, they have to get their hands off of me and my data

 

[rbkwp]

Snowden Traitor or a Hero?




either way, good for him, at his eternal expense, he has helped expose, and make the World aware, of how corrupt and Fucked, Authorities in this World are, as if we needed confirmation ..

 

[dandelion]

The word would be defection rather than quitting.

Thats rather the irony, isnt it? The only places the US has left open for him to go to are Russia and China. He didnt defect, they forced him to go there.

The law is the law and an oath is an oath.

Now there we have an absolute and fundamental disagreement. A disagreement upheld by international law too, although i heard the US has refused to sign up to many international treaties on humane behaviour. For example, an example you may have heard of, many Germans were accused for war crimes or crimes against humanity simply because they obeyed lawful orders from their government. Virtually every human acknowledges that there comes a point where it is the duty of citizens to break unacceptable laws. Another example would be Mr King, who you mentioned.

You and Dandelion have an underpinning belief that prevents both from ever getting it.

I do have to agree that Perados has correctly explained Mr King's meaning, and you missed it. I agree we seem to share a belief in liberty and the duty of the individual to act to maintain that liberty, which you lack.

 

[Jason]

The law is the law and an oath is an oath.

There's a presumption that everyone will obey the law, and making the decision to disobey it is likely to have serious consequences. But there are rare occasions when disobeying the law is the right thing to do. This case may or may not be an example of the latter.

It's a shame the USA hasn't found a solution. Allowing the guy to go to Venezuela might have been an answer. For that matter the USA might have asked an ally to give him a home. I think it would be far better for the USA and everyone if he were resident in the UK (say) than in Russia.

 

[rbkwp]

I think it would be far better for the USA and everyone if he were resident in the UK (say) than in Russia.







UK after whats just happened there Jason, i wouldn't even trust his safety down here or being given sanctuary down here, Govts would soon co-ordinate to get there greedy hands on him
think he is in the best spot for now myself, Ru news gives an entirely different spin on Snowdens affairs, rather than some appealing to US chat shows for sympathy ..
citizens USA love reality chat shows compared to seemingly genuine news huh ..

 

[deleted15807]

I do have to agree that Perados has correctly explained Mr King's meaning, and you missed it.

Your animosity towards the US gov't is well known. Therefore anyone like a Snowden or Manning is automatically your 'hero' n'est-ce pas? And discussing the law or oaths taken is frankly always "justified" if the end result is a humbled and embarrassed U.S. gov't. You should recuse yourself from this discussion.

And yes Mr. King is being used in the correctly. It just doesn't fit the way you and Parados wish to frame Mr. Snowden's actions.

Edward Snowden is no Socrates and no Martin Luther King. Most vividly, unlike King, Snowden lacked the courage to stick around to defend his actions.
Edward Snowden is no hero​

There's a presumption that everyone will obey the law, and making the decision to disobey it is likely to have serious consequences. But there are rare occasions when disobeying the law is the right thing to do. This case may or may not be an example of the latter.

Exactly. The trust extended to individuals to maintain a certain amount of lawfulness, trust, order and predictability is gone.

It's a shame the USA hasn't found a solution. Allowing the guy to go to Venezuela might have been an answer. For that matter the USA might have asked an ally to give him a home. I think it would be far better for the USA and everyone if he were resident in the UK (say) than in Russia.

There are really only small handful of countries that would take Mr. Snowden and his bag of NSA goodies given his passport has been revoked. The list is very very short.

Given the breadth of the information stolen, from what I can gather from news sources, PRISM is just one program. Ostensibly he chose this one to alert the American people of. Apparently he has far more information on other NSA programs. But we will never really know what he has compromised and given away and that the government will never let go unpunished. .

 

[Fuzzy_]

It's interesting that those who are referring to government tyranny are saying it's fine that Snowden breaks the law with impunity.

As Jason mentioned, there is a difference between a harmful act and an illegal act. Some might say that Snowden's acts should be legal, but Fuzzy wonders what they have to say about his willful sabotage of the US by revealing secrets about US spying overseas.

 

[rbkwp]

I do often wonder what has made a majority of the Worlds populace place no faith no more in the USAs current behaviours
The days when others of the World have no say in such behaviours are long gone, the Bully tactic days of the US have ceased to exist now, sorry they DO exist
there determination to remain on top, is lamentable ..
almost the same can be said for the UK as well!

 

[Perados]

@sargon20
If your interpetation is right, what is about...
Einstein, heisenberg, oppenheimer, helen rubinstein, marlene dietrich or marx? They all left germany and worked against germany (before the war) - they are all
traitors by your arguementation.

Same counts for ovid (left rome) - dalai lama (left tibet) - the polish exil goverment (they refused to return to poland past WW2, cause of soviet russia) - boris beresowsky (left russia) - leo tolstoi (left russia)


And if you think de gaul doesnt count cause of the war, you should rate snowden the same way - the usa is at war against terror

 

[Klingsor]

@sargon20
If your interpetation is right, what is about...
Einstein, heisenberg, oppenheimer, helen rubinstein, marlene dietrich or marx? They all left germany and worked against germany (before the war) - they are all traitors by your arguementation.

Not to be too much of a stickler, but does Oppenheimer belong on that list? He was an American, after all, and though he studied in Germany, he returned to the U.S. in 1927, half a dozen years before the Nazis came to power.

For that matter, Helena Rubinstein moved to the U.S. in 1914 (at the outbreak of a different war), and I'm not sure she ever lived in Germany.

Marx left Germany in 1843; not sure that was in response to any particular war.

 

[Perados]

Not to be too much of a stickler, but does Oppenheimer belong on that list? He was an American, after all, and though he studied in Germany, he returned to the U.S. in 1927, half a dozen years before the Nazis came to power.

For that matter, Helena Rubinstein moved to the U.S. in 1914 (at the outbreak of a different war), and I'm not sure she ever lived in Germany.

Marx left Germany in 1843; not sure that was in response to any particular war.

You are right about rubinstein and oppenheimer (somehow i always thought he was german)
But i wasnt talking about marx the philosoph but marx the politican who tried to become german president...

But i guess my point is still clear

 

[deleted15807]

@sargon20
If your interpetation is right, what is about...
Einstein, heisenberg, oppenheimer, helen rubinstein, marlene dietrich or marx? They all left germany and worked against germany (before the war) - they are all
traitors by your arguementation.

Same counts for ovid (left rome) - dalai lama (left tibet) - the polish exil goverment (they refused to return to poland past WW2, cause of soviet russia) - boris beresowsky (left russia) - leo tolstoi (left russia)


And if you think de gaul doesnt count cause of the war, you should rate snowden the same way - the usa is at war against terror

What an insult to Einstein! Seriously? You want to compare Einstein to a thief and serial liar like Snowden? at: You keep marching off the deep end Parados. Your case just gets weaker and weaker.

 

[Perados]

What an insult to Einstein! Seriously? You want to compare Einstein to a thief and serial liar like Snowden? at: You keep marching off the deep end Parados. Your case just gets weaker and weaker.

Lol what an pathetic try not to answer... To bad, you cant acknowledge that you were wrong.

What do the personal skills have to do with your wrong interpretation of a quote? - at the end, they still would be traitors by your interpretation - they all left their nation and avoided going to jail.

 

[deleted15807]

they still would be traitors by your interpretation - they all left their nation and avoided going to jail.

And your interpretation of a 'hero' is to simply spill state secrets and Perados has elevated you to Einstein and Dalai Lama status. Simply unreal. The bar is so low anyone can be a hero in your book. Make public what you were swore to keep secret = HERO.

And again the King quote was correctly interpreted. Confirmed by a journalist with far greater credentials than your own. Your blinders prohibit you from any other conclusion than the one you have.

See ya later.

 

[dandelion]

Your animosity towards the US gov't is well known.

Wow! have you just looked up my file?

Therefore anyone like a Snowden or Manning is automatically your 'hero' n'est-ce pas? And discussing the law or oaths taken is frankly always "justified" if the end result is a humbled and embarrassed U.S. gov't.

The Uk suffered two world wars where there was a true threat of annihilation of the country. Seems to me this justified measures just about as extreme as anyone could devise. Had I been alive then I would have wholeheartedly joined in with the intelligence war. Then, in my lifetime we had the Irish terrorism, a home grown and internal difficulty which was a considerably greater threat to actual citizens and was managed much more calmly than the nonsense we are experiencing now. A problem which incidentally was made more difficult because of American support for the 'insurgents'. A policy which the US has followed in many parts of the world, creating many of the problems it now faces.

Now..there is no threat to the Uk by comparison with historical ones. By comparison it is laughable. The US suffered a very clever attack which exploited weakness and overconfidence in its internal security measures. As a result it has reacted in a spasm of hyperactive intelligence gathering and military adventurism, causing world instability time after time.

You should recuse yourself from this discussion.

Your best hope of winning the debate is that people who disagree with you will voluntarily stop making points you cannot counter by argument or evidence?

Edward Snowden is no hero

I see the article you quote makes similar points to yourself. I already mentioned that there is no legitimate means of whistleblowing so no reasonable person could follow one! The article accepts that Snowden may have been correct to whisleblow, it only disputes his methods. There is a fundamental disagreement between the two sides whether there is a functional means of complaint within the US.

I see the article commends Socrates for submitting to execution, and suggest Snowden should do the same. I am not at all sure Socrates had any real choice, in a society where political failure was customarily accompanied by death rather than loss of office, but if you really want to return to the rather unique methods of ancient greek democratic government, better to start by submitting every important decision of the state to open debate and a national vote by all citizens interested in taking part. Interested foreign parties able to attend. If the US was ancient Athens, Snowden would have had the opportunity to place all his evidence into the hands of every citizen and ask them to decide what should be done. As far as I can see, this is exactly what he HAS done. It is the US government which is seeking to prevent the application of Athenian democracy, where citizens make an informed decision after both sides state, in full public for all to hear, everything they wish to say.

we will never really know what he has compromised and given away and that the government will never let go unpunished.

In Athens, we would know. And then the nation would judge who was right. Whether Snowden or Bush/Obama should be executed. Socrates lost the argument so it was he who suffered the penalty. Applying this ancient method, presumably all members of congress would be executed who had supported these measures if the citizens found against them?

 

[dandelion]

Some might say that Snowden's acts should be legal, but Fuzzy wonders what they have to say about his willful sabotage of the US by revealing secrets about US spying overseas.

I am sure the US has suffered much greater harm by its own incompetence than anything Snowden could do. For the most part all he has done is rub the administrations noses in evidence of what they had already been accused of doing. All he has done is prove they are doing what they are believed to be doing anyway.

He has created a legal crisis by producing evidence the US authorities are acting unlawfully. I dont really see how this is a bad thing. The US needs to decide openly exactly what its agents are allowed to do. It may be the case that some real agents will suffer personally because of secrets revealed, but they only have their own masters to blame for this because they have acted without informed consent of the US population.

 

[Jason]

Wow! have you just looked up my file?

I have actually wondered if anyone is monitoring LPSG politics. If you look for politics discussion boards on the internet there are of course plenty, but the LPSG board is probably big enough and covers enough contentious topics for it to come to the notice of monitoring agencies.

Now I assume 99.9% of monitoring would be trawling by a bot, but if anything does appear interesting to someone in a monitoring agency they would presumably want to get behind the username and identify the individual. I don't know how hard or easy this would be. I suspect for a government, not actually all that hard

So yes Dandelion, someone, somewhere really might have looked up your file. And mine.

 

[rbkwp]

Thanks dandy
and if thats a UK guys view, and a basically non political hick country New Zealanders view, how many others thruout the World see it like that
US Citizens have been brainwashed into all this Patriotism crap (like the English tried to enforce on us as kids, God save the Queen - it worked for some of us ha) thinking they're the greatest, get real, maybe then not now!






and Mr Dotcom can save me with his Large Bod, if them Nastys start tracking me .. he is doing a Great job at Not getting sent back to the States