Is Israel becoming totalitarian?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Drifterwood, Jul 12, 2011.

  1. Drifterwood

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    BBC News - Israeli lawmakers pass West Bank settlement boycott law

    A new law means that it is illegal in Israel to exercise freedom of choice and not work with "illegal" Israeli settlers on the West Bank.

    "Illegal" because the international community considers them illegal, but Israel does not.

    This seems a bit bonkers to me.
     
  2. B_RedDude

    B_RedDude New Member

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    Democracy, my ass. It shouldn't even be considered a legitimate nation-state.
     
  3. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    Becoming? They've been that way for a while. They slaughter people everytime someone looks at them wrong from Gaza. Forced military service, checkpoints that make the TSA look tame, etc.
     
  4. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    Anytime there's a conflict on this planet involving one or more parties claiming God is on their side or wants them, specifically, to do something, the out come is always, always, always, terrible. Whether or not Israel is a totalitarian state (a term I personally think is over stating it a bit as Israelis probably don't think of it that way) or not is irrelevant. If that's the worst that happens before their issues with the rest of the world are resolved, it'd be a blessing (no pun intended.)





    JSZ
     
  5. Drifterwood

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    Totalitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I'm not so sure that it is way over the top, not extreme totalitarianism, but headed the wrong way.
     
  6. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    I'm aware of what Totalitarian means without a wikipedia link. I'm also aware of where, historically, the term has been applied. I'll agree that some of their polices have echoes of what might be, extended and enforced with vigor over a longer period of time, likenesses to other totalitarian regimes but they're not nearly close enough to warrant being tagged with the term as a blanket statement on who they are and what as a whole they are trying to accomplish. Some of their measures are extreme but I still don't think it's enough to put them in the same category as North Korea.


    Four cars sitting at a red light and not moving isn't a good sign but I wouldn't call that a gridlocked traffic jam.





    JSZ
     
  7. Drifterwood

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    I wasn't linking just for your benefit JSZ.
     
  8. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    Well... you quoted me, and then immediately posted a link to a wikipedia article afterward. Most of the time when you quote someone, the next thing after the quote is a response to it. Also, I'm fairly certain anyone who posts in this thread will have a least the baseline understanding of the definition of the term that could be gleaned from a wiki page.


    If it wasn't just for my "benefit" maybe a qualifier would have helped.




    JSZ
     
  9. Drifterwood

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    The nature and purpose of this particular legislation falls within the definition of totalitarian IMO.
     
  10. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    Fair enough. One persons definition of "deviant behavior" is another persons definition of "life style choices." It's something to be discussed and debated by the finest of mines. Not for the sake of a conclusion but for the sake of exploration. I think we're on the same side so far as that goes.





    JSZ
     
  11. midlifebear

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    The "new" Zion State has always been totalitarian. Open your eyes a bit wider and remind yourself not to bring your ethnocentric sunglasses when you visit Israel.
     
  12. B_bxmuscle

    B_bxmuscle New Member

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    Not at all. Rather, you're thinking of what is called a "Herrenvolk" or master-race society. These are regimes in which a privileged group rules over others based on some type of identity-politics be it based on notions of race, culture, nationality or religion. Nazi-ruled Europe between 1940-45 is the most notorious example, but there have been many Herrenvolk regimes with democratic politics within the privileged community.

    The U.S. south under segregation laws
    French Algeria from the conquest of 1830 to independence in 1962
    British-ruled Kenya
    Ireland under the British, then Northern Ireland after partition in 1922.
    Apartheid-era South Africa (Rhodesia and the Portuguese colonies in southern Africa were part of the same regional system)

    Israel is becoming, perhaps already is, another such Herrenvolk democracy.
     
  13. B_bxmuscle

    B_bxmuscle New Member

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    Also, I have to point out that outside of admittedly powerful pop-media contexts, the concept of "totalitarianism" is a discredited one anyway. The terms was first coined around 1925 by Mussolini when he consolidated his Fascist regime, defining "totalitarianism" as a means of total integration of state, society and individual, thereby overcoming Italy deep social conflicts. It was therefore a positive thing in his usage. (See B. Mussolini, The Social and Political Doctrines of Fascism, 1932)

    It was expanded to include the Soviet Union for the first time in Hannah Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism of 1947, in the context of the early Cold War. Her analysis was about fascism and Nazism, but she could get it published only by adding Stalin's Communism to it in the last chapter.

    Its contemporary usage dates from Alexander Solzhenitsyn's 1962 A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, ironically published with official support in the post-Stalin USSR. It depicts the experience of a Soviet labor camp prisoner, exposing the brutality of the Stalinist period. Though supported by the Soviet regime under Khrushchev, this expose was avidly picked up in the United States as "proof" of Soviet "totalitarianism!!" Go figure. The concept is a discredited one, but there are many people who remain politically and ideologically invested in it, which is why we still hear it used.
     
  14. SlamminSammy

    SlamminSammy Well-Known Member

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    The Apartheid-like wall they built makes them as bad as other communist (China, Germany) & racist (South Africa) governments of the past that also built walls, but their arrogant totalitarianist attitude makes them worse than all of them!
     
  15. workandplay243

    workandplay243 New Member

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    I like Israel, and hope they take back their land to 1967's borders. Many years they have had their land (Isreael) given up for 'land for peace' deals.
     
  16. B_grabbinass

    B_grabbinass New Member

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    yeah...that "new" Zion state is running the USA...open your eyes even wider.
     
  17. midlifebear

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    Yeah, just ask any Palestinian and they'll tell you everything bxmuscle writes it true. :rolleyes:
     
  18. midlifebear

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    Spoken like yet another "group think" deluded mormon living in Provo and attending BYU. :tongue:
     
  19. Drifterwood

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    I have no investment in the term. It works well for me in the context of the State unreasonably legislating against personal freedom of choice to pursue its political ends.

    So, I'll carry on using it if that's OK with you, unless you have a better term.
     
  20. D_Percy_Prettywillie

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    But that isn't what constitutes a totalitarian state. That's incorrectly applying the term if that's the only criterion you're using. "The state unreasonably legislating against personal freedom of choice to pursue its political ends" is a statement chalk full of subjective terminology that cannot be reasonably quantified. What is "unreasonable" to you isn't unreasonable to everyone and what you see as "legislation against personal freedom" could just as easily be described by someone else as the curtailing of individual liberties for the sake and safety of the general population (i.e. why I can't drive a car drunk legally.)

    There's an apple tree in my yard, I have milk in my fridge, and bacon in my freezer. You'd find all of that stuff on a farm but I don't live on one. To say I did simply because of those three things would make me kind of an idiot.





    JSZ
     
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