Is LPSG Intolerant of Christians?

milledeux

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Well, your approach is very fascinating, I must say.
...but that's my opinion. :rolleyes:


yep, biguy, and opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one. But when people start putting their opinions based on BELIEF to law then, well, you get a theocracy, no different from Iran.
 

BigDallasDick8x6

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Rather than answer the question. I choose to ask a question. Why are we so tolerant of Muslims? In many Arab nations gay people are being executed in record numbers over the years. Where is the outcry over this? Why are we so silent about this? Not to mention the slavery going on in the Sudan.


Iraqi Government to Execute 128 Men Because They’re Gay - One Man's Blog

Exactly. Yet we criticize the Swiss over the minaret ban. We need to put things in perspective. Muslim countries' human rights records are some of the worst.
 

D_Biggo Mortensen

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You're presuming an awful lot there, and you're insulting me too.

These core beliefs you think all Christians share, how much would you like to bet that the majority of them are beliefs I have tremendous moral problems with ?

I offended you? Considering all of the offenses you've thrown around in this thread, all I can say is get over it (and i mean that in the least offensive way possible). Christianity is a system of beliefs. The beliefs I'm referencing are not just those I think all Christians share. They are what define the religion. If you have moral problems with one's belief in God, or Jesus as the son of God, or that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, that's really your prerogative. But I wasn't inquiring about why you aren't Christian. I was merely concerned that you seemed to be holding all Christians responsible for the atrocities of some, or the doctrines of a particular denomination that promoted such atrocities when those doctrines are not core to Christianity itself.
 

FuzzyKen

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I think that we have several problems here, the first being the use of the language.

The question? "Is LPSG Intolerant of Christians?"

LPSG is a representation of and a group or large gathering of a diverse group of people with one single common interest. The group itself does not have the ability to be "intolerant", the members on an individual basis do have that power.

Each man or woman who speaks is going to speak based on their personal life experience. There are people who are members of this board who have, based on their orientation, been terminated from their jobs. There are people, based on their orientation who have been denied medical insurance coverage. There are people, based on their orientation who have had their relationships with others fictionalized, their lives distorted, and their belief systems totally misrepresented.

Throughout history when one group of people wants to devalue a people or a culture that culture is portrayed over a period of time as being sub-human, is demonized, and portrayed by stereotypes.

The "Christian Extremists" which DO NOT represent all Christian peoples or doctrines have adopted all of the above techniques and used them to launch and support political viewpoints that benefit only a single viewpoint.

Most "Christian Extremists" pick and choose what parts of the Bible they want to use and which ones they want to ignore.

There are many Christian Denominations which welcome people of alternative sexual orientations without condemnation. As time progresses those who continue to represent extremely narrow viewpoints of religion will continue to have their worlds grow smaller instead of larger.

During the H.O.U.A.C. trials of the early 1950's conservative politician Ronald Reagan made a very profound statement. His statement referred to the infiltration of the entertainment industry by the Communist Party, but, his words with regards to political organization were most profound. "They always infiltrate and run a majority with a small and well organized minority." If one thinks about what has happened to create the Anti-Christian sentiments over time it is exactly this.

The "Christian Extremists" have had people come to the front of their movement which have done an extreme quantity of harm.

Jerry Falwell loved publicity. Jerry Falwell was a man who would use any tool available to him to place himself in the limelite. The Gay and Lesbian Community did not know who "Tinky-Winky" was until Jerry Falwell when appearaing on "The 700 Club" with Pat Robertson declared that "Tinky-Winky" a puppet cast member of the infantile television show "Teletubbies" was there to "indoctrinate" infants into homosexuality. He was gay because he was purple and purple was a "gay" color. He was gay because his antenna was an inverted triangle and that was a "gay thing". All of the above was simply a coincidence and shapes were used to attract the eye of infants and watchers less than (3) three years old. When Jerry Falwell stuck his foot in this one he launched a sales drive of "Tinky-Winky" dolls in the gay community unlike anything that the producers of the show and product licensing had have seen before. It was Jerry Falwell who had made this, not the gay community.

Back in the 1970's Anita Bryant a former Beauty Queen launched a campaign against gay people which was incredible. She took a single issue and did everything she could to "re-criminalize" acts which had been decriminalized years before. She created "witch hunts" for gay people causing losses of employment and she professed herself to be an expert on the subject. (What was sad is that it turned out she was when years later her husband left her for another male)

At the same time Los Angeles Police Chiefs William Parker, Edward M. Davis and Tom Reddin launched campaigns against gay people that cost taxpayers incredible sums of money when they repeatedly raided gay charity "fund raisers" arrested everybody and then had to turn them loose when the Disctrict Attorney's Offices failed to find any criminal behavior.

There have been many "gay bashings" which have taken place when "fire and brimstone" ministers have incited young easily influenced teenagers by painting pictures of all gay and lesbian individuals as "sexual preditors".

What is sad is that the Christians as a whole have been given a "black eye" and it has not been by anything other than the most extreme and conservative members of their own.

While I do not believe that all Christians should be attacked, and I will fight to the death for religious freedom, it appears that many of the most conservative elements within the Christian Community do not share the view that any opinion other than theirs counts.

How can a group defend itself when they do not condemn a man like Fred Phelps? Phelps has made statements blaming deaths of servicemen serving their country on the acceptance homosexuality in this country. The man is a broken record blaming every world problem on this single issue.

The Christian community is like every other community. The community needs to earn respect and not simply demand it because they are there. You earn respect by performance and in their case performance of "Christian Acts".

How does one earn respect when in many parts of the Christian Community, the one thing that it represents has been lost. Most of the most popular televangelists and media ministries are nothing more than major corporations masquerading as churches in order to dodge taxation. The sum total of their donations do not feed the poor, help families who need it, or do anything else that is "Christian". The sole purpose of these ministries and the money is to purchase more satellite transponder stations in order to raise more money etc. etc. etc..

I firmly believe that descrimination against ANY group is wrong, but, when a group of individuals goes out of their way to condemn, remove civil rights, medical benefits, and even personal rights from one single group of people one has to look at this as an attack by that group on another.

I have not seen any gay groups going out and trying to remove the civil and personal rights of Christians. I have not seen gay people going out and stating what belief system a religious person should have while inside their place of worship.

Not all Christian Groups are bad and not all Gay Organizations are good. There are a few Gay Organizations with which I strongly disagree.

In closing I think we need to avoid stereotyping either side and taking each individual situation or person as exactly that.

This debate will rage long after everyone on this board has gone to their final resting place. Success will not mean that all disgareement is gone. Success will happen when both groups do not find reason to need to criticize the other.
 

vince

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Yes but not prejudiced by such an attack surely ? Not me personally. I might agree with one or two aspects of Democrat policy but that would hardly give me reason to feel like the antagonistic or critical views of Democratic policy were a form of prejudice against me.
What I meant is, you are within your rights to defend them whether or not you are one of them or not.

I'm afraid that's not what I said Vince
It's a direct quote. I didn't make it up or take it out of context.

just sympathising with Christianity and incorporating Jesus into your own personal beliefs does not qualify one for the status of a Christian
I didn't say that. I did not make any comment on how a non-church going Christian may arrive at their faith. It doesn't matter, nor does it make them any less a Christian.

, or can anyone at any point for any reason at all just suddenly jump and shout "I'm a Christian" a la "I am Spartacus" ?
Come on....

Do I then have to suddenly change my view of the formal Christian faith to accommodate these pseudo-Christians ? Or would it not make more sense to presume that when I am referring to "Christianity" I am not including these associated individuals ?
Well two hours ago you argued that these people you call "pseudo-Christians" and associated individuals, were responsible, although not culpable (and btw, there is a very thin line between the two), for actions of formal Christian faith. :confused:

This is the point I'm really trying to make, I have deep moral and ethical problems with Christianity, by which I mean not only Christian religious institutions but with a wide variety of Christian doctrines and beliefs, and more than that I have a deep moral disquiet regarding the very foundations of Christianity and religion in general.

Now a Christian would evince equally strong feelings regarding their beliefs in Jesus and the Christian God.

I am being asked to respect these beliefs in spite of my very real moral and ethical concerns regarding them and my expression of these concerns is liable to be labeled "prejudiced". The double standard is shocking.

That would imply that some Christian is not respecting your ethical concerns. Simply has not happened here. Not from my hand. Disagreeing does not equal disrespect.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Spirituality saves. Religion destroys.
I see a lot of people trying to defend their beliefs, and I don't think that's the real issue here. The problem arises when a group of people try to impede on the lives of others based on these beliefs. It's crazy for anyone to point at one particular religion and say that it's the cause of the majority of problems in the world. I hold all organized religions responsible for this.

FuzzyKen's post should be read by all. It practically nails the issue right on the head.
 

vince

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Spirituality saves. Religion destroys.
I see a lot of people trying to defend their beliefs, and I don't think that's the real issue here. The problem arises when a group of people try to impede on the lives of others based on these beliefs. It's crazy for anyone to point at one particular religion and say that it's the cause of the majority of problems in the world. I hold all organized religions responsible for this.

FuzzyKen's post should be read by all. It practically nails the issue right on the head.

I agree VB.
And on that note I'll say goodnight.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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What I meant is, you are within your rights to defend them whether or not you are one of them or not.




Well two hours ago you argued that these people you call "pseudo-Christians" and associated individuals, were responsible, although not culpable (and btw, there is a very thin line between the two), for actions of formal Christian faith. :confused:

No I didn't, I said Christians were responsible. Not people who's beliefs are vaguely associated with those of Jesus. You're combining both formal Christians and informal Jesus enthusiasts and making my words apply to them both, when they were never intended to.



That would imply that some Christian is not respecting your ethical concerns. Simply has not happened here. Not from my hand. Disagreeing does not equal disrespect.


The point I made in my first post in this thread is that because religious beliefs are not required to be examined objectively many people who hold them percieve non-christian critiques of there beliefs as tantamount to a personal attack upon them more generally, which leads to this belief that those who criticise religions are prejudiced against them.

The question in the OP is whether or not Chritians experience prejudice here, my point was that objective criticism of Christian beliefs can easily be interpreted as prejudice because the POV of both parties involved is so contrasting.
 
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D_Tim McGnaw

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Spirituality saves. Religion destroys.
I see a lot of people trying to defend their beliefs, and I don't think that's the real issue here. The problem arises when a group of people try to impede on the lives of others based on these beliefs. It's crazy for anyone to point at one particular religion and say that it's the cause of the majority of problems in the world. I hold all organized religions responsible for this.

FuzzyKen's post should be read by all. It practically nails the issue right on the head.


Moi aussi.
 

Mr. Snakey

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Actually you have my absolute support on this issue. I'm a member of several organisations trying to help gay people in Iran and Saudi Arabia and other extremely dangerous coutnries for gay people. It's something we really need to change and soon.
I just have to ask why this isn't talked about on here. Here is another report from CNN in which hundreds of gay people were executed back in August.


Gay men attacked, executed in Iraq, rights group says - CNN.com
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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I just have to ask why this isn't talked about on here. Here is another report from CNN in which hundreds of gay people were executed back in August.


Gay men attacked, executed in Iraq, rights group says - CNN.com


What's crazy is that even though Sadam Hussein was a murderous lunatic, under him gay people in Iraq were decriminalised and enjoyed far greater protection than they do now. The extremely religious parties which now form the government in Iraq despise homosexuals and the police either turn a blind eye to murder and attacks commited against gay people or in some cases are thought to be involved in them.
 
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B_spiker067

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What's crazy is tha even though Sadam Hussein was a murderous lunatic, under him gay people in Iraq were decriminalised and enjoyed far greater protection than they do now. The extremely religious parties which now form the government in Iraq despise homosexuals and the police either turn a blind eye to murder and attacks commited against gay people or in some cases are thought to be involved in them.

Why have the majority of societies reacted so violently against homosexual men?
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Why have the majority of societies reacted so violently against homosexual men?


That's a big question and one perhaps for another thread, but actually the answers depend on what periods in history we're discussing and what parts of the world and which societies we're looking at. It's not a universally bleak picture though.
 

B_Stronzo

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Rather than answer the question. I choose to ask a question. Why are we so tolerant of Muslims? In many Arab nations gay people are being executed in record numbers over the years. Where is the outcry over this? Why are we so silent about this? Not to mention the slavery going on in the Sudan.

To be absolutely clear Mr. Snakey I have no more tolerance for absolutists of any religious affiliation than I do those of the Christian variety.. But I'll call you back to the OP and the topic is Christians.
 

Mr. Snakey

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To be absolutely clear Mr. Snakey I have no more tolerance for absolutists of any religious affiliation than I do those of the Christian variety.. But I'll call you back to the OP and the topic is Christians.
Oh i see you were unaware of this. No problem.
 

B_spiker067

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That's a big question and one perhaps for another thread, but actually the answers depend on what periods in history we're discussing and what parts of the world and which societies we're looking at. It's not a universally bleak picture though.

I believe it is simple.

The mechanics of gay sex and the promiscuity of gay men spreads sexually transmitted diseases at a higher rate than societies have found tolerable for public health reasons.

Promiscuous women have also been persecuted for the same reason but with the added rational of paternity issues.
 

Sergeant_Torpedo

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I don't feel I share much or any common ground with the above comments. Christianity through much of its history has been persecuted (and still is) and has itself persecuted heretical ideas. People politicize religion and produce schism and sectarianism without call to conscience or God. I am not being flippant when I ask, is this the devil's work within the church? So are they really Christian (Christ defended prostitutes and lepers) if they don't turn the other cheek. I am in a profession that requires sacrifice, but then most people are; yet this job could not be done without flouting the belief in not taking life. The original Baptists of Europe, particularly English Baptists abhore war and killing - yet I personally have never been attacked by traditional Baptists that I know. Yet in the USA Baptists are perhaps the most militant and pro war sect there is. Should we call them Christian?

Anglicanism is being cleved by election of homosexual and female bishops. The Roman curia immediately comes to the rescue of those priests so hateful of others that they are prepared to cross over to Rome, and the Pope invites these priest's wives too. Given the disgraceful penchant for abuse that the Roman priesthood has wouldn't it be better in putting its own house in order before condeming women and gay priests. Is my critique against Christians or the papacy? You have to choose an interpretation. If you have faith in God, and do quiet good deeds that require sacrifice, courage, and giving then that is all that is required of you to be called a Christian. If you choose to add other "stuff" to your basket then you may still be a Christian but a very bad one. If you inspire a hateful Christianity within your faith community then you are still nailing people to the cross.

I know those with a college theology course under their belts will think I am being simplistic. But them Christianity is a simple faith.
 
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How could it be a Christian act if it was burned in 48 BC, which I what I have always read. Have historians recently revised that timeline?

It was burned a few times. The final time was when the Islamic armies did so after wresting control of Egypt from Byzantium. The bit about the furnaces of Cairo burning for six months on the contents is a story that didn't appear until 450 years after the fact.