Is LPSG Intolerant of Christians?

[Dave NoCal]

Okay, I've read this whole thing and will comment.

It seems to me that people who use religious beliefs, ie. supernatural beliefs, to wield power and influnence (including online discussions on an internet sex site, go figure) often tend to feel aggrieved when challenged by facts and logic. Given the interest in sexuality inhernent in the membership, my guess is that the membership tends to be more humanistic than religious. Fact and logic are the tools of humanists on this board and and it seems reasonable that some people would feel aggrieved by their use. Often they can come across as feeling persecuted and my prediction is that, when the current law in North Carolina that requires officeholders to believe in God is struck down, many will complain of persecution seemingly blind to the hegemony that hey have held. My interperetation is that they KNOW (believing is knowing) their supernatural beliefs SHOULD HAVE THE POWER OF LAW.

My personal view is complicated by three main factors.

First, I come from a religious family and have known many religious people who are kind, fair, and extremely generous. So lumping all religious individual who, in my personal experience have been mostly Christian, into one category of people (mean, hypocritical, good, saintly, etc....) is not viable.

Second, being gay I am part of a long-persecuted minority and, it is a fact that when the mobs come for us those in front are usually waving relgious texts. It is my belief that most anti-gay violence is, at least in part, religiously motivated. Those interested in this point can reference a documentary movie titled "License to Kill."

Third, I have a skeptical mind and view it all as supernatural belief. When people hold supernatural beliefs that's not my problem. When they think their supernatural beliefs give them authority over my life that is my problem.

Given these factors, I think most organized religion falls on a continuum of obnoxiousness, mainly becaue the people who bring that into social interactions feel entitle/obligated to do so. I've been fed a lifetime of it and have no desire to have any voluntary associations with people who want to discuss it. In that sense, I may be prejudiced although I see it as self-protective.
Dave

 

[Opalite]

Dear god (pun intended), that was a lot to read.



But to stay on topic, I'd like to believe that before we could answer the question itself, we might have to go back to the basics. What is religion?

Imagine, all religion aside. A long time ago - arguably even 2.5 million years - in the Paleolithic age, or in easier words the old stone age of the first actual humans. Imagine being one of these first humans:

After a long and tiring day, you decide it is time to go to sleep. But suddenly, you are awaken by the most horrifying of sounds! A loud roaring thunder awakes you and your band. Being scared, you decide to investigate where that awful sound may be coming from, and when finally looking up a bright flash fills the sky with it's white light. Thunder, as we know it now. But imagine not knowing what it actually is? It starts to rain, and the loud roaring sound gets harder and the flashes seem more bright. Then out of nowhere one of these bright flashes hits the single tree just a few miles from where you were laying. What could it be? Purely based on instinct, your first reaction is to try to protect your band from the obvious danger coming from the sky. It would seem like the sky is angry, wouldn't it?

After a long night of horror, the sun then finally comes up again. It's a perfectly sunny day, and it almost seemed like nothing ever happened. But you can't help but wonder. So you decide to go out hunting (yes, if we would look at it from a purely scientific point of view that could be scavenging and looking for plants depending on the actual age, but if hunting helps you imagine things better.. go ahead). But after hours and hours, you still have had no luck finding anything. Slowly the sun is going down again, and you have yet to find any food. How could this be? You're hypothesis has just been confirmed, the sky is definitely angry.

What's next? Anthropomorphism. The attribution of human characteristics to non-human creatures and beings, phenomena, material states and objects or abstract concepts. Within time, the basic characteristics and 'funny ways' of the human mind will try to find a way to 'understand' the concept of the angry sky, and within doing so will be very likely to 'humanize' it. And even though I'm likely to get burned (no pun intended this time) for saying so, anthropomorphism – or to be more exact; anthropotheism – is commonly associated not only with the early Greeks and Romans, but with the old Testament. These kind of references are not uncommon, and I personally find them to be very interesting. This can be a very basic way to look and investigate religion further.

Let dig in to it a little deeper. Let’s say the angry sky you’ve encountered before can now be referred to as the angry man in the sky. Human psychology provides you with the ability to think, so lets. If the man in the sky is angry, he might need to be pleased, no? (try to keep your dirty minds on track, boys and girls) How does one please an angry man in the sky? Trial and error. The next day you decide to eat only plants, maybe the man doesn’t like you to eat meat. But when the sun goes down, the roaring starts again.. this time even more vicious. Okay, so it wasn’t the meat then. What else? You try and try again until you find the roaring stopped after the male and female humans in the group slept in two separate groups. That’s it! The angry man in the sky dislikes it when both genders sleep together, that seems easy enough! So from that day on you and your band keep sleeping this way, so the man in the sky will stay happy.

This cycle can be repeated over and over until we have what seems a strict guideline of values and rules. Not necessarily having to do with thunder, but just about anything we couldn’t explain. Dare I say.. religion? Mans ability to think and challenge the problems at hand is one of the most fascinating things. Science is just one of the ways in which we do this, but religion can very well be the same.


When we go back and look at Christianity from this point of view, we can strip it to it’s basics: a book of explanations and values – not necessarily true to just anyone reading it.. it all depends from which point of view one does. What does form a person to be more likely to do so, is a much to great of an issue to pinpoint here and now, and would be a completely different topic. Though, it does allow us to look at it from a less prejudged stand point! If Christianity in itself would refer to these books, it can only be judged by those that stand by it, no? If it only were that easy.

Because we can not overlook the aspect of culture that gets woven into these religions. Not necessarily a ‘true’ aspect of that particular religion, but seeing many of these are thousand years old they do tend to pick up some of these cultural aspects. This is why religions vary so greatly, and why their believers do so too. There’d only be ‘one Christianity’ if there would be ‘one culture’. It’s not that easy.

And it’s these variations that I personally believe should be open for discussion. Not to decide whether they are right or wrong, because I do not think it can be labeled as easy. But it’s only human to do so, it’s what has made us evolve. Let me be blunt here to quote “Test everything. Hold on to the good. (Thessalonians 5:21)”


Back on topic. In questioning if the majority of people on LPSG are in fact intolerant if Christians, I can only say maybe. These statings can only be judged by one intolerant statement of each person at a time. Seems rather dreadful. Should they be intolerant? Heavens, no. But I think most Christians won’t argue with the aspect of questioning, and therefore learning. It’s just a matter of staying polite and sticking to the point.

If it would not have been clear so far or even matter, no I am not religious.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

I would say that I take the same position about christians (and other monotheistic belief systems) that Sam Harris does.

 

[B_spiker067]

Hey you know what don't bother answering, this is me officially walking away from this thread, it's getting chaotic.

^^This makes an earlier point.

You're smart. You mulled it over in your mind and realized I could make a case (I think). It could have been a good debate but probably not a meaningful conversation because it would be too personal for those involved.

peace, spike

 

[B_spiker067]

Dear god (pun intended), that was a lot to read.

...
If it would not have been clear so far or even matter, no I am not religious.

Your command of English is pretty good for a continental European. ;-)

 

[rob_just_rob]

I just have to ask why this isn't talked about on here. Here is another report from CNN in which hundreds of gay people were executed back in August.


Gay men attacked, executed in Iraq, rights group says - CNN.com

So... intolerance of homosexuals and persecution of homosexuals by christian groups shouldn't be discussed, because other groups (such as muslim groups) are committing worse atrocities against homosexuals than the christians are.

That's your point, correct?

 

[superbot]

The problem in the States, seems to me, that the arguement is VERY polarized,i.e that if you are a practising Chritian then that = right wing,intolerant non-liberal etc etc etc.It's a bizarre way of looking at what is basically billions of people and yes it does show a profound level of ignorance.It also seems to be linked to polictics too I've noticed!...

 

[Drifterwood]

"I consider western Christianity in its practical working a negation of Christ’s Christianity."

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Blame Ghandi.

 

[Cobalt Blue]

Rather than answer the question. I choose to ask a question. Why are we so tolerant of Muslims? In many Arab nations gay people are being executed in record numbers over the years. Where is the outcry over this? Why are we so silent about this? Not to mention the slavery going on in the Sudan.


Iraqi Government to Execute 128 Men Because They’re Gay - One Man's Blog

I just have to ask why this isn't talked about on here. Here is another report from CNN in which hundreds of gay people were executed back in August.


Gay men attacked, executed in Iraq, rights group says - CNN.com

Don't you darecriticise Muslims, here or anywhere else for that matter.

 

[dreamer20]

Rather than answer the question. I choose to ask a question. Why are we so tolerant of Muslims? In many Arab nations gay people are being executed in record numbers over the years. Where is the outcry over this? Why are we so silent about this? Not to mention the slavery going on in the Sudan.

Iraqi Government to Execute 128 Men Because They’re Gay - One Man's Blog

I just have to ask why this isn't talked about on here...

Such persecution of gays has been talked about on here: e.g.

Heartbreaking Pictures of Executions

So... intolerance of homosexuals and persecution of homosexuals by christian groups shouldn't be discussed, because other groups (such as muslim groups) are committing worse atrocities against homosexuals than the christians are.

That's your point, correct?

Yes rob. One Christian's typical complaint about the speck in their brother Muslim's eye, whilst ignoring the beam being stuck in his Christian brethren's eyes. Christians commit the same atrocities and use the same theology to justify their actions.

43

Mr. Snakey it is unfortunate that you believe your "collective we" should be intolerant towards all Muslims because some endorse the fundamentalist Christian's practice of persecuting homosexuals. Christians are meant to treat others as they would prefer to be treated and not spark fires of hatred, discrimination and intolerance which only divide and destroy communities.

http://www.childrenofgodthemovie.com/www.childrenofgodthemovie.com/About.html

 

[Countryguy63]

I unfortunately don't have time to read all 8 pages, but did skim through and still may have missed where my concerns may be addressed. Feel free to link me back if they were. That said.....

What do guys like myself do? Raised very conservative christian. I knew from as far back as I can recall, that I liked guys as well as girls, and you can imagine the self torture that I put myself through because of what I was hearing others say in church.

On the other hand, my faith made me the person that I am today. I base the way that I treat people on what I learned from the bible. Love, kindness and trust are the basis of christianity and how we should live. Some just don't represent that.

I've seen a more than my share of hypocrites using religion as a way of judging others. They are NOT what I believe christians are. The same as anyone that feel the need to persecute others that they don't agree with.

Yes, I consider myself a christian. Yes, I know the conflict that comes with that. And finally, Yes, it stings when I see or hear someone bash "christians" instead of the person who I also probably disagree with.

 

[naughty]

Don't you darecriticise Muslims, here or anywhere else for that matter.

If this conversation is really turning into intolerance towards gays instead of intolerance towards Christians why do you feel that the Muslim community should be exempt from this? If a broad brush is to be painted then why should Islam not be included?

 

[HUNGHUGE11X7]

I'm wondering what a devout "Christian" is doing on the LPSG message board

That's NOT fair , at all !!!

I meant to say a devout, CONSERVATIVE Christian

OK now THAT IS and is a great question to ponder . My guess would be much like the others of their ilk looking for dick , ehmm A BIG DICK I mean to say !!!!


HH

 

[HUNGHUGE11X7]

It has been my impression that most people here who say anti-Christian things are generally attacking the more conservative interpretations of Christian theology, not attacking people for simply being Christian. ?

I have to state that I am generally appalled by conservative Christianity when it enters the political sphere to influence the lives of others who do not share conservative Christian beliefs. I am also appalled by conservative Islam and Judaism too; indeed, any religious group that seeks to control the lives of non-believers.

I am Intolerant of no one ! However if you proclaim your beliefs don't cry when I do not agree with you and tell you my own.
Christians, no sorry I mean people masquerading AS Christians attack other religions all the time so what makes them think their ideaology is sacrosanct ???
I too have major issues with the far right-wing nut cases as well as I have problems with ANY religion that is taken to the point of fanatacism. I have many close friends who are Christian and know that I am not,
I have found if we are on the same political footing we get along great but when they allow their religion to influence their political beliefs then there is a problem !
There is a DAMN good reason our forefathers, who by the way many seem to erroneously think were Christian put SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE in the constitution. The two DO NOT mix and never will . This was brilliant foresight on their behalf too bad we have become such a dummied down nation to see the truth .
Our nation was founded NOT ON CHRISTIANITY But Freedom of Religion or Freedom FROM Religion .
IN my experience I have far too often found MORE intolerance from the Christian religion that any other idealogy. Christianity is seriously losing it's control over the masses and it scares them, I see it more and more everyday. People are becoming more analytical and are thinking for themsleves more than before and they are not as easily lead like sheep into being told what to Baaa-Lieve !
Christianity has MURDERED people in the name of God through wars , sarcifices, burnings etc...
Thousands of innnocent AMERICAN people lost their lives for very stupid reasons when they were believed to be witches. As far as I am concerned what ever happens to Christianity is JUST DESSERTS !

After ALL the persecution ALL FAITHS have endured at the hands of Christianity it is primed for attack


HH

 

[naughty]

I unfortunately don't have time to read all 8 pages, but did skim through and still may have missed where my concerns may be addressed. Feel free to link me back if they were. That said.....

What do guys like myself do? Raised very conservative christian. I knew from as far back as I can recall, that I liked guys as well as girls, and you can imagine the self torture that I put myself through because of what I was hearing others say in church.

On the other hand, my faith made me the person that I am today. I base the way that I treat people on what I learned from the bible. Love, kindness and trust are the basis of christianity and how we should live. Some just don't represent that.

I've seen a more than my share of hypocrites using religion as a way of judging others. They are NOT what I believe christians are. The same as anyone that feel the need to persecute others that they don't agree with.

Yes, I consider myself a christian. Yes, I know the conflict that comes with that. And finally, Yes, it stings when I see or hear someone bash "christians" instead of the person who I also probably disagree with.

Thank you.

 

[naughty]

Such persecution of gays has been talked about on here: e.g.

Heartbreaking Pictures of Executions




Yes rob. One Christian's typical complaint about the speck in their brother Muslim's eye, whilst ignoring the beam being stuck in his Christian brethren's eyes. Christians commit the same atrocities and use the same theology to justify their actions.

43

Mr. Snakey it is unfortunate that you believe your "collective we" should be intolerant towards all Muslims because some endorse the fundamentalist Christian's practice of persecuting homosexuals. Christians are meant to treat others as they would prefer to be treated and not spark fires of hatred, discrimination and intolerance which only divide and destroy communities.

About

I dont believe he was advocating treating Muslims intolerantly.He seemed to be pointing out that Christianity is not the only religion which often does not condone Homosexuality. Just as there are extremist Christians there are also extremist Muslims. There are alway going to be those who practice their own particular brand of a particular religion.
As for Christians treating others as they want to be treated, that is only part of what is preached, however that is a good thought for all . The golden rule would go a long way in helping to heal divisions .

 

[JustAsking]

Yes, as a Christian I do find LPSG a bit hostile in that regard. But I don't come here under any illusions. This is a place full of highly independent thinkers many of which find the notion of adhering to a belief, or worse, someone else's belief an anathema.

Also, there are a lot of gays here, who have earned the right to be hostile to Christianity given the marginalization they have suffered from religous people.

What I find mostly under attack here, though, is religious fundamentalism. And since I am as vehement as anyone else about the nastier forms of that, you will find me on the side of the bashers more often than not on that subject.

I blame a lot of this next problem on the mainstream denominations' lack of abiity to transmit their message to the world. Everywhere you look it seems that all Christians are raving fundamentalists with spittle on the corner of their mouths. The mainstream denominations don't do much to counteract that notion, not because they condone it but rather because they seem totally unable to articulate their message to the public.

The other thing that minimizes the impact of criticism here for me is that I do spend a lot of time on science blogs and Christian forums where science is being defended from fundamentalism. Those venues find me side by side with the fiercest atheists you can imagine defending the notion that something like evolution is science where Creationism is not.

Being a Christian gives me an advantage in these situations because I happen to come from a faith tradition that is consistent with mainstream Christian theology which completely embraces science and considers the Creationism of a Bible literalist to be a heresy. Those denominations that do embrace science represent some 1.8 billion out of 2 billion Christians in the world.

Anyway, I am very comfortable here amongst all the free-thinkers. This is a wonderfully eclectic crowd of very interesting people. Please go on bashing Christians all you want. Don't hold back on my account. Just don't be surprised if I defend it from time to time from straw man arguments that paint all Christians as gay hating young earth creationists who think everyone but them are going to burn in hell.

 

[2322]

I tried creating a post that had all the things I wanted to quote but the quotes alone exceeded the maximum post size. Gah.

I have no problem with cafeteria Christianity. After all, what are all the various denominations but various groups who have decided what doctrines to accept, reject, ignore, or create out of thin air? If I'm a single Christian with my own beliefs about Jesus, then why is it more legitimate if I convince 200 other people of my beliefs and found a church? 20,000 people and I have a real denomination going! I don't think it is. Christianity has been schismatic since its foundation. I don't think that's going to end anytime soon. Christianity Today says there are about 38,000 separate Christian denominations in the world. That's an enormous number of different interpretations of the same book.

I do not believe that belonging to a church makes one any more responsible for the past actions of the church any more than it makes one culpable. I have met people of wildly different types just in the Catholic church and I use that as an example only because it's the one where I've spent most of my time despite being raised as a protestant. We had priests who were nice, some who drank way too much, and another who was a child molester. I had to deal with sadistic nuns (one drove a Mercedes Benz with personal license plates) and nuns who could pass for saints with their compassion and devotion for the children in their care. It would be easy for me to say the Catholic church is one way or another, discounting any doctrinal positions, but it isn't. It's composed of people who are all wildly different not only in their devotion to their faith, but their interpretation of that faith. Even under Catholic doctrine, different clerical orders have arisen to address the many aspects of what constitutes Catholic faith. Dominicans really are different from Jesuits who are different from Carmelites who are different from Legionaries who are far, far, different from Franciscans. I can no more ascribe any one of these orders as being representative of all Catholics than I can say that all Catholics represent their church. I can't even say, because of the hierarchical structure of the church, that all members support the actions of the Pope or Curia. I know a few Catholics who are highly displeased and completely unsupportive of Pope Benedict or the church's policies regarding various issues. At the same time, these people feel that staying with the church is best for them because they believe the doctrines best suit their beliefs, not because of a pope or a doctrine they dislike. Some of them believe they can best effect change in the church by remaining part of it as well. When one is bound to a faith by sincere belief, then the highest authority isn't a single man or group of people or even ecclesiastical laws, but the deity (or deities) to whom one is devoted. If I were to believe every Catholic doctrine regarding Jesus and the holy family save but a few, and if I believed the church leadership had acted unethically in the past and present, I would still be a Catholic because what's most important is that their interpretation of God would match mine. I might not give to the church, might even protest it, but I'd still be a Catholic.

That's one of the reasons I've always been fascinated by excommunication. How can you excommunicate someone without their consent? You can't. The only people who are excommunicated are those who are still Catholic. The rest went somewhere else and aren't Catholic any longer so what use was excommunication?

I really liked FuzzyKen's response as well. I think it was a very nice examination which JustAsking later expanded upon. It seems to me that the Christian right in the US is controlling the ship of American Christianity much like they control the ship of the Republican party, leading both onto some perilous shores. As JA stated, it seems the mainstream Christian denominations are wholly unable to articulate their positions on various issues. It reminds me of when I asked my Sunday school teacher before confirmation just what it was that the Dutch Reformed church believed that made it different from other Protestant denominations. She couldn't answer me. At no time in class were the 95 Theses ever mentioned nor was the Confession of Dort or anything else I later discovered were essential to the Dutch Reformed church. I didn't get confirmed. Knowing what I know now, I NEVER would have joined as I don't believe in an Elect and I certainly don't believe in the trinity. The church does have a very grand organ though and it's nice to listen to. It seems to me that many Christians don't know just what it is they're allegedly subscribed to when they join a church. For some it's convenience of location or a good minister, yet when asked questions on theology, most couldn't begin to answer. I find even ministers have a tough time saying what makes one denomination, i.e., their denomination, different from any others. When most people are confronted with theology they dismiss it as arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. So long as the minister says what they like and the Bible the church uses seems good, then people are happy with the church they're part of. It's only when people are challenged by internal theological questions of current import do they begin to question what it is they supposedly believe. And not surprisingly, that's when they discover that some members believe one thing while others believe another and they're shocked, SHOCKED! to discover this is the case. That's when schisms happen. I think schisms are good because they show evolution of thought and demonstrate that at least some people are acknowledging that as society develops, so does religion and when the old no longer suits the people of today, religion has to change to reflect that. It goes back to what was stated earlier about everyone needing to be right. Useless or unswerving denominations die off while new ones appear and as the useless or unswerving die off, they get angry, volatile, and socially active. We're seeing this with conservative fringes in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. The world has leaped ahead more in the last century than it has in 1,000 centuries and the most conservative sects of religion have the most difficulty with that because their spiritual paradigm just doesn't fit with contemporary society and popular morals. This is concerning to me because radical people with God on their side can justify any action in the name of that God. Like it or not, their actions in the name of God, "This bombing is a victory for true Christians everywhere!," take everyone from Hutterites and Quakers to Pentescostals and Copts along with it. I'm saddened that with all the resources mainstream denominations of every religion-of-the-Book have, that more isn't done to refute the whackos at the edges. In these cases, silence is deafening because silence equals at least tacit acceptance in the mind of the public at large and it's damaging.

 

[TomCat84]

I guess my point is that dont come on the LARGE PENIS SUPPORT GROUP, spout anti gay christian rhetoric, and expect to be treated nicely.

 

[rob_just_rob]

I dont believe he was advocating treating Muslims intolerantly.He seemed to be pointing out that Christianity is not the only religion which often does not condone Homosexuality. Just as there are extremist Christians there are also extremist Muslims. There are alway going to be those who practice their own particular brand of a particular religion.

This is completely disingenuous, an attempt at a red herring, and/or misses the point entirely.

Muslims don't influence US domestic politics. Christians do. Some muslims advocate eliminating the rights of gays, and women, and followers of other belief/nonbelief systems. So do some christians. The difference is that in the USA, and in most other western countries, the christians have, or think they have, the political clout to get their discriminatory beliefs enshrined as law. So the christians are the ones that people who value their freedoms are worried about. If the muslims ever get that kind of clout in my country, I'll be worried about them too. But lets deal with the immediate problems first, m'kay?

By way of analogy, I'd like to keep both burglars AND great white sharks out of my urban residence. But I'm more worried about the former than the latter, because they're more likely to be a problem. And despite the fact that the latter have more teeth.