Is perceived racism / bigotry actual racism / bigotry?

[novice_btm]

I'm not sure that this is the same, veiled vs. perceived, but there was a similar topic started a while back. Typically, while I think racism, and really discrimination in general, is good to discuss, we've had some pretty heated outcomes because of it.

http://www.lpsg.org/et-cetera-et-cetera/25866-veiled-racism-in-america-lpsg.html?

I'm still baffled at "shameless negro" being allowed to stand here. I have to wonder what the results would've been if white-boy over here had said that. Of course, considering the behaviour that I've seen excused here, I'm beginning to just believe that arliss is actually Rob_E's alter-ego.

 

[D_alex8]

In the final analysis, we're all people of colour. The point being that in some cultures, Alex8's 'norm', isn't. Rather, it's a different norm.

I suppose it depends on which society one's talking about. I think you're smart enough to not fall into that pre-conception; of speaking from the perspective of a European nation where it may be valid. A legacy of western, white imperialism has been to stamp a decidedly caucasian (in nature even if not always in 'colour') hierarchy in many parts of the the world though this isn't the case everywhere. The backlash when it happened, has on occasion, been ugly.

Yep, I agree... I was referring very specifically to white-centred hegemonies, as per my comment: "White people have constructed society and culture in such a way that we get to wear an empowering cloak of 'invisibility'". As such, I was speaking specifically as a white person who lives in a(n unspoken) white-centred culture.

And that wasn't without obvious purpose on my part, since it's those who wear the badge of unspoken empowerment who most need to be made aware of the fact that they too are 'other', and a 'construct' rather than a 'given'. In a white-centred culture, those designated as racially or ethnically 'other' are reminded of that fact every day. But how often are white people in that culture made to step back and realize the constructed nature of their whiteness? Doing so can be a productive step in 'unlearning' some of the 'normatised' attitudes and behaviors instilled from childhood... if one is receptive and able to embrace a new mode of thinking and seeing oneself.

Once again, my example was intended to be very specific to white-centred cultures. Of course it doesn't apply universally. Each culture negotiates its own notions of 'invisible self' and of 'labeled other', and comes with its own forms of racism and bigotry. To deny that, indeed, would be foolishness and PC-gone-mad-ness.

 

[dong20]

But how often are white people in that culture made to step back and realize the constructed nature of their whiteness? Doing so can be a productive step in 'unlearning' some of the 'normatised' attitudes and behaviors instilled from childhood... if one is receptive and able to embrace a new mode of thinking and seeing oneself.

That, is the key question. The unlearning is key, what's even more key is passing the benefits into the learning processes of the next generation. Sometimes I'm positive about this, sometimes it seems we're going backward.

Once again, my example was intended to be very specific to white-centred cultures. Of course it doesn't apply universally. Each culture negotiates its own notions of 'invisible self' and of 'labeled other', and comes with its own forms of racism and bigotry. To deny that, indeed, would be foolishness and PC-gone-mad-ness.

I know. I read it that way, the danger is that others might not have done.

That's really all my comments were meant to elucidate. If one ignores colour as the focus, then the basic concepts are universal, or close to it. :smile:

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Was I right to take offense tho'? I think I was.

I don't think anyone should question their own feelings. You felt offended by the joke and that was reality. There's no need to sugar coat, deny or ignore your feelings. Feelings happen. Its what you do afterwards that's important. Here's why:

Any time I feel offended by a comment or action I view it as a grand opportunity to silently look inwards and identify why I felt offended. Its a valuable learning opportunity each time I do this. Almost always its because some internal need of mine was not being met. Searching for what need that actually was is an interesting excercise because I learn more about myself each time I do it.

In your case I suspect the need that was not being met was related to respect. I'm guessing you probably felt angry because you were wanting people to be judged on their individual qualities rather than mocked for stereotypical racial characteristics. An offhand comment or joke can rub that need raw, leaving anger in its wake.

It's how you react afterwards with your words or deeds that's imporant. There are techniques for expressing your feelings and your needs that inform the offending individual without offending them in return. I think that's healthy and I use those techniques frequently at home and at work.

I'll write more about this if readers are interested.

 

[dong20]

I'm still baffled at "shameless negro" being allowed to stand here. I have to wonder what the results would've been if white-boy over here had said that. Of course, considering the behaviour that I've seen excused here, I'm beginning to just believe that arliss is actually Rob_E's alter-ego.

I'll get hell for this I expect; but consider the statement in isolation, if a word (any word) is used and meant as a racial insult, then what difference should the colour of the person using the word make? To me, it should make no difference.

That it does, points to another, deeper problem.

 

[Principessa]

Sometimes people do not think they are being racist, discriminatory or bigoted when in fact they are. True, but as they often say on on Law & Order. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law.

Just the other day someone I like made an 'Irish are thick' joke at me and that, combined with an exchange here today*, have reminded me forcibly of this.

I perceived the comment made to me about Irish people being thick as extremely offensive, I let the person know this and I got an apology but also an "I was only joking" type response. Now - I let it go because, as I said, I like the person in question and maybe my reaction will have taught them to reflect a little more before 'joking' in the future.

Was I right to take offense tho'? I think I was. Yes, you were. Also in the case of the below link the offending party makes all sorts of claims about how he wasn't being racist. And yet the person to whom the comment was directed perceived it as a racial attack.

So, to the question: if the 'offending' party doesn't think they've been racist / bigoted is the target of the comment wrong to take the comment in that way? No they are not. The target is also not being overly-sensitive, childish, or petty.

*I refer peole to this link if they want to know

OK - but it wasn't made as a joke - it was more - she's (i.e. me) a bit thick, she's Irish.

Not really a joke - not an Englishman, Irishman, Scotsman joke for example.

Yes - jokes can be funny - especially clever ones that play on and reverse the steriotype. But what about jokes that play on the steriotypes only. Jokes about black people being inferior - are those ever funny? What about jokes about gay people being child molestors - are they funny?

I don't think so. Nope, not to my knowledge they are not.

Certainly there is room for non-PC humour. I'm all for that. That's not really what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is someone making a passing comment, like 'she's a bit thick, she's Irish' and not thinking they are being (or even meaning to be) bigoted. Am I wrong to perceive that as bigotry? It was a bigoted remark. The fact that it was said in jest does not make it funny in the least.

 

[dong20]

It was a bigoted remark. The fact that it was said in jest does not make it funny in the least.

Careful:

Plays to racial and religious stereotypes.:

Absolutely! God gave Black men bigger penises to make up for slavery and being kept from getting decent paying jobs byThe Man.

Plays to social stereotype:

No but I heard they like to fuck their sisters and aunts. :tongue: :biggrin1:

Plays to racial stereotype.:

I LOVE your new pics meatpackingbubba! Clearly one of your parents is Black. Fess up which one is it...no 100% White man could possibly be hung like you. :wink: :tongue: :biggrin1:

I know you were only joking in all those cases too, but there is latent offense in all those remarks. I know I'm reaching but you see my point. We all gaff from time to time, it's not intented to cause offence, ,mostly it doesn't but when you talk in absolutes you set yourself up.

The fact that they were said in jest, doesn't make them funny in the least. Your words, not mine.

 

[novice_btm]

I don't think anyone should question their own feelings. You felt offended by the joke and that was reality...

I'll write more about this if readers are interested.

Please do!

I'll get hell for this I expect; but consider the statement in isolation, if a word (any word) is used and meant as a racial insult, then what difference should the colour of the person using the word make? To me, it should make no difference.

That it does, points to another, deeper problem.

No, you're right, but the facts are, it does matter, to most people, and if I wrote that remark, I wouldn't be here to have this discussion.

 

[Principessa]

Careful:

Plays to racial and religious stereotypes.:

Plays to social stereotype:

Plays to racial stereotype.:

I know you were only joking in all those cases too, but there is latent offense in all those remarks. I know I'm reaching but you see my point. We all gaff from time to time, it's not intented to cause offence, ,mostly it doesn't but when you talk in absolutes you set yourself up.

The fact that they were said in jest, doesn't make them funny in the least. Your words, not mine. Nice try DONG20; but you forgot the cardinal rule of racial humor. In America, as a Black person I am allowed to make these jokes and use the "N word " whilst White people cannot.

Also intonation and emotion cannot be felt or heard in print hence my prolific use of smilies in many of my posts. As for this post it was clear at that point that everyone was making a joke of a thread that has been reiterated in various forms here over many years.

If the OP had said, "gosh I'm thick today, you'll have to excuse me I'm Irish." That would be entirely different. It then becomes not racism or bigotry but self-deprecating humor. That does not mean that other Irish folk in earshot wouldn't take offense but they would most likely cut her some slack.

 

[No_Strings]

I call my friends "honky" all the time, just a little political satire for anyone who cares to be listening in on us. (For the record, myself and most of my friends, due to my locale, are white.)

I have a naturally olive skin tone, and tan heavily & easily. Many used to think I was a large part Turkish or Greek untill I set them straight. I've had passers-by take offence at me when they've heard me say it to friends during the Summer, but never during the Winter. Go figure.

 

[Principessa]

I call my friends "honky" all the time, just a little political satire for anyone who cares to be listening in on us. (For the record, myself and most of my friends, due to my locale, are white.)

I have a naturally olive skin tone, and tan heavily & easily. Many used to think I was a large part Turkish or Greek untill I set them straight. I've had passers-by take offence at me when they've heard me say it to friends during the Summer, but never during the Winter. Go figure. I'm guessing that during the winter you are less tan looking. Therefore your use of honky becomes self-deprecating rather than having a negative racial tone.

See My Response Below.

Nice try DONG20; but you forgot the cardinal rule of racial humor. In America, as a Black person I am allowed to make these jokes and use the "N word " whilst White people cannot.

*snip*​

If the OP had said, "gosh I'm thick today, you'll have to excuse me I'm Irish." That would be entirely different. It then becomes not racism or bigotry but self-deprecating humor. That does not mean that other Irish folk in earshot wouldn't take offense but they would most likely cut her some slack.

 

[dong20]

Nice try DONG20; but you forgot the cardinal rule of racial humor. In America, as a Black person I am allowed to make these jokes and use the "N word " whilst White people cannot.

No I didn't forget. Also, I don't live in America, this isn't America it's the Internet. Either way I don't give a tinkers cuss about America's 'rules' on racial humour. Racism and bigotry are not the sole perview of the US.

BTW the 'N word' rule, used that way, is bullshit and It's racism by any measure. You hide behind your skin colour in order to justify it, what does that say? I ask because I'm unsure if you're being ironic. I hope so.

Also intonation and emotion cannot be felt or heard in print hence my prolific use of smilies in many of my posts. As for

this post it was clear at that point that everyone was making a joke of a thread that has been reiterated in various forms here over many years.

The smilies are irrelevant. Your posts were made in jest, yes. I agreed they were made in jest, that was my point - yet somehow it appears, your statement - "The fact that they were said in jest, doesn't make them funny in the least" apparently doesn't apply to you. How is that? See above perhaps?

If the OP had said, "gosh I'm thick today, you'll have to excuse me I'm Irish." That would be entirely different. It then becomes not racism or bigotry but self-deprecating humor. That does not mean that other Irish folk in earshot wouldn't take offense but they would most likely cut her some slack.

Yes, but the OP didn't say that. Neither was it what you said, or how you said it. Your comments were not self deprecating.

Look, I cited the comments to make a point that the stereotypes we're all aware of slip out unintentionally. Usually there's no harm done. I didn't do it to have a go at you but the weakness of absolute arguments in such situations. You waded in saying, unconditionally it was wrong, even in jest. Trying to weedle out of having done the same just digs a deeper hole.

 

[Principessa]

THis is a fascinating topic. Isn't it though. I have been thinking all day I wanted to create a similar thread. We have had a number of instances on the board this week of comments that were perceived as racist or bigoted by the recipient but said not to have racist or bigoted intent by the sender. The operative word here folks is context. The treachery of the internet is that the written word by itself is flat and ripe for differences in interpretation. This is probably one of the main sources of conflict on this board in general I might hazard a guess. Agreed, hence my prolific use of smilies. I have recently started adding the italicized word sarcasm to some of my posts to avoid misunderstanding. We can not see the wry smile on someone's face when they are typing it, we may not know that though this person may be of one persuasion they have many friends or even relatives of another and have grown up hearing certain things as an intra ethnic or racial joke and felt mistakenly comfortable in saying it in another context. There are even cases where the recipient may not realize that the sender is him or herself a part of that group and feeling justified (God forbid) to say such a thing as "part of the gang". Yup! I made this egregious error just last week when I thought Arliss was Puerto Rican and not Black. Odd since, I have first cousins lighter than he is but there you have it. I made an assumption and was proven dead wrong. :redface: There are also the personal and hidden baggage that we all bring to the table which may ignite at such a time. This happend to me just last night in the thread which MB quotes in her original post. What might be laughed off by one member of a group may incense and cause much perceived pain to another.

Where do we go with this? Thinking before we hit that post button. I have been thinking all day about something I may have done earlier in the week seemingly to have condoned bad behavior in another at the expense of another member. I would like to take this opportunity to in my way contribute to the healing process. Lex, though you may not have said anything to me about it, I must apologize for seeming to make light of your dismay at the use of the term "shameless negro". I do not see the word "negro" as perjorative but merely an antiquated form of African American. Same here. Perhaps it was that fateful combination of the two words "shameless" and "negro" which caused you pain. The only reason I did not take offense to Arliss using'shameless negro' was because I had just found out he was Black. I was still on the fence about it though and was glad that Alex8 bought up the fact he as a white man thought it was offensive. In an attempt to diffuse what had become a very hot situation I too called myself a "shameless negress" but the context was not the same. True and until you explained your avatar to me I was a bit puzzled, but not offended. I just trusted that you had good reason. I have a feeling that the last two weeks may go down in LPSG and OLPSG history as infamous. But we need to find a way to interact not out of a momentary need to strike out at one another but to think of long term mutually healing solutions.

I think it is only when we examine ourselves and look at not only why where, how or when we do or say these things any things that hurt and cause more division among our ranks that we will be able to make so valid and viable solution. Mutual respect is key here. AMEN! We all have rights but in the interest of peace are our individual rights more important than a collective and mutual respect for our differences? Lets think about it the next time we are tempted to be snarky or dismissive. We only go around this way once people, lets try to do it right the first time.

I love that word snarky! :tongue:

 

[spaox]

I agree that this is a great topic. As a brasiliero, I hate the stereotype of us as Latinos as sex crazed, sex objects... I find that the sex crazed sex objects are all the Europeans and Americans that come to Brazil looking for sex. Which is why they are routinely preyed upon by Brasilieros.

As a rule, most latinos would prefer a good time dancing, socializing and spending time with friends and family than fucking all the time unlike most Americans and Europeans that I meet - who always have sex on the brain...

I think cliches are the purest sign of an ignorant and uninformed person.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

....unlike most Americans and Europeans that I meet - who always have sex on the brain...

I think cliches are the purest sign of an ignorant and uninformed person.

See the cliche?

 

[novice_btm]

See the cliche?

LOL! Good one!

...Which is why they are routinely preyed upon by Brasilieros.

This disturbed me a bit. We're "stupid", so fair game as prey, eh? Hmm...

It goes both ways though. I had a Brasilian "pen-pal", who, the first thing he did when he met me, was to jump me, when I thought that we were just friends.

PEOPLE like sex, no matter where they're from. Some people like it more than others, and geography has no bearing on that. The only real differences are how, culturally, we're influenced with expressing it.

 

[whatireallywant]

ALL generalizations are false. :biggrin1:

Yeah, stereotypes bug me too. Not trying to be "PC Police" or anything but I especially get annoyed by gender stereotypes! I may actually behave according to a very few of them, but not many. I'm just me.

Can't say that I have never said anything that could be perceived as racist or stereotyping, I don't think many people can honestly say that they have never said anything that could be perceived that way. I definitely avoid the blatantly bigoted stuff, though.

 

[dong20]

See the cliche?

I almost wrote the same, but he qualified it with "unlike most Americans and Europeans that I meet".

If it's based from personal experience, cliche may not apply.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

I almost wrote the same, but he qualified it with "unlike most Americans and Europeans that I meet".

If it's based from personal experience, cliche may not apply.

I paused with the same thought until I saw that he also qualified it with "....always...."

Even the most sexual people I've ever met don't always have sex on the brain.

 

[dong20]

I paused with the same thought until I saw that he also qualified it with "....always...."

Even the most sexual people I've ever met don't always have sex on the brain.

:biggrin1: